greyhounds jeffhergert I think it was still open under Chicago Central. Pre-Staggers, there were circus style ramps everywhere on all the railroads. Post Staggers it seems almost all disappeared as railroads gradually changed from retail to wholesale service. Jeff This one is complex to respond to. But I’ll do my best. First let me say that the “Circus ramps everywhere” required that intermodal shipments move through freight yards and in local train service. This often made the intermodal service vastly inferior to trucking service. It also increased the costs of intermodal service because it took more handling and equipment time. Then there were the idiotic government economic regulations. The government fools, and I mean that, used an average cost system that calculated costs by the carload, not the trailer load. (It was illegal to charge less than their foolishly calculated costs.) So, if a potential customer wanted to ship one trailer to a place such as Waterloo, IA it had to be “Mated” with another trailer going to Waterloo or have a government mandated higher, not truck competitive, charge. This “Marriage” resulted in a third-party middleman who added to the cost of intermodal movement. IF such middleman could produce two trailers from different shippers to move within 24 hours. Please know that the damn fool regulations did not require the two trailers to move on the same flatcar. Only that they move within 24 hours. “Ship ahead, mate to follow” was common. When the second trailer didn’t show up in time, we had a “Busted Marriage” That resulted in all kinds of disputes with customers and the accounting department. In short, before Staggers, it was very hard to retail because we had to find two trailers going from one origin to one destination at nearly the same time. After Staggers I could just say “We’ll charge $X for a trailer load.” We could still get two trailers on an old fashioned eighty-nine-foot flatcar. (Until trailers got longer.) I really don’t think class 1 railroads should retail. They can deal directly with large customers such as Walmart and Amazon. But that’s not really retailing. Walmart and Amazon are the retailers. Otherwise, the railroads deal with JB Hunt, FedEx, UPS, etc. Class 1 railroads are large manufacturers. They manufacture transportation. Large manufacturers don’t generally retail. There’s a reason for that. It’s called “Discrepancy of Size.” A large manufacturing organization won’t do to well dealing with a much smaller customer. And that’s why you buy a car from a Ford dealer instead of directly from Ford. But… I do think there is a need for more intermodal terminals. The railroads have focused on moving intermodal from ports. They need to look at moving more domestic freight originating in places such as Sioux City, Yakima, WA, etc. There’s a lot of money out there. Go get it.
jeffhergert I think it was still open under Chicago Central. Pre-Staggers, there were circus style ramps everywhere on all the railroads. Post Staggers it seems almost all disappeared as railroads gradually changed from retail to wholesale service. Jeff
The "busted marriage" scenario sure as hell makes me glad that I didn't get into the Revenue Accounting area until well after Staggers had taken place.
Will agree wholeheartedly that the Sioux City area would seem to be an excellent location for a new intermodal and/or logistics facility that could be utilized by UP, BNSF and CN. You've got a robust area to draw from with several commodity types all in play. As someone who's been in this industry for a while now, I fully realize that there's always obstacles that are going to be in the way but with some creative and out-of-the-box thinking, something truly worthwhile could come out of such a facility.
But I've also got to say that if there's one area/city that's absolutely crying for an intermodal facility, it's Cedar Rapids. You'd be drawing from not only Cedar Rapids/Iowa City itself but from a pretty large area in eastern Iowa as well. Consider: At one time, you had not one, not two, not three but FOUR intermodal facilities in the Cedar Rapids/Marion area - the Rock Island (later operated by CNW) in downtown, the Milwaukee Road (one in downtown and one on the mainline at Marion) and the IC/ICG in downtown. Now perhaps that's a bit of overkill there but a same type of "union" terminal that can be accessed by UP, CN and Crandic/IAIS is something that's long been overdue, IMHO.
I have proposed, and will probably continue to propose, that effective intermodal-transfer facilities be co-located with regional 'hubs' like Rotterdam, that are already chosen with an eye toward minimizing the overall regional cost, and maximizing operator convenience, of drayage.
One of the issues not mentioned so far is how the trailers or loaded container underframes get on and off the ramps. I suspect many drivers would not attempt circus-style loading without additional training and perhaps 'aids', and it would be ridiculous right up to widespread level-4 autonomous operation to station yard tractors at other than concentrated loading points.
OvermodI have proposed, and will probably continue to propose, that effective intermodal-transfer facilities be co-located with regional 'hubs' like Rotterdam, that are already chosen with an eye toward minimizing the overall regional cost, and maximizing operator convenience, of drayage. One of the issues not mentioned so far is how the trailers or loaded container underframes get on and off the ramps. I suspect many drivers would not attempt circus-style loading without additional training and perhaps 'aids', and it would be ridiculous right up to widespread level-4 autonomous operation to station yard tractors at other than concentrated loading points.
Worked at the B&O Wicomoco Street Ramp in Baltimore. It was a circus loading facility. All loading and unloading was performed by drivers and equipment in the empoyee of the Ramp. OTR drivers would drop/pick-up trailers from designated spots in the ramp's storage area. The ramp employed yard tractors that had a hydraulic fifth wheel tha would allow them pick up and drop trailers without the need to manually the landing gear on the trailers.
This was in the early 1970's and container shipping was barely in its infancy and 99% of the traffic handled was trailers. The one percent of containers were handled on their chassis just like trailers.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Overmod One of the issues not mentioned so far is how the trailers or loaded container underframes get on and off the ramps. I suspect many drivers would not attempt circus-style loading without additional training and perhaps 'aids', and it would be ridiculous right up to widespread level-4 autonomous operation to station yard tractors at other than concentrated loading points.
jeffhergert SD60MAC9500 Backshop You also have to make sure that there's enough traffic to ensure a shift for the employees running it. If there's only 2-3 hours worth of lift, it's not efficient to run it. Well there's plenty of traffic generated in the Sioux City area to keep contractors busy at an IM ramp for a good 12 hour period. There's an assortment of meat packers, food processors, and cold storage. Also Cargill has a large facility for soybean processing, and Storm Lake, IA is only about a 70 mile dray to hypothetical IM ramp. Tyson Foods has 2 processing plants there.. Also railroads don't operate any drayage. That's handled by O/O's or drayage companies. There's no investemnt from the RR at that end. As well at many of the nations IM ramps. Contrators provide the lift equipment and operators.. I like Greyhounds idea of a "Union IM Ramp" It could be operated by a WATCO or Savage.. That's assuming you can get all that traffic to use intermodal. The Council Bluffs (IAIS/UP) and Omaha (BNSF) intermodal facilities aren't that far away from Sioux City. Both of those locations are on their main routes. IM traffic from Sioux City is going to move in manifest trains to a point where they can be put on a train towards their final destinations. I don't know about BNSF, but UP doesn't move IM east out of Council Bluffs. Nor does it move loads from the Chicago area into CB. There is an IM train that sets out containers for CB, that a manifest then picks up for the yard. But anytime I've looked, the containers are empty, going to CB to be loaded for western destinations in the area. Maybe even in Sioux City. CN, of any of them, would probably benefit most from an IM facility at Sioux City. They are the farthest from an IM facility of their own. Their closest facilities are in Wisconsin and the Chicago area. Jeff
SD60MAC9500 Backshop You also have to make sure that there's enough traffic to ensure a shift for the employees running it. If there's only 2-3 hours worth of lift, it's not efficient to run it. Well there's plenty of traffic generated in the Sioux City area to keep contractors busy at an IM ramp for a good 12 hour period. There's an assortment of meat packers, food processors, and cold storage. Also Cargill has a large facility for soybean processing, and Storm Lake, IA is only about a 70 mile dray to hypothetical IM ramp. Tyson Foods has 2 processing plants there.. Also railroads don't operate any drayage. That's handled by O/O's or drayage companies. There's no investemnt from the RR at that end. As well at many of the nations IM ramps. Contrators provide the lift equipment and operators.. I like Greyhounds idea of a "Union IM Ramp" It could be operated by a WATCO or Savage..
Backshop You also have to make sure that there's enough traffic to ensure a shift for the employees running it. If there's only 2-3 hours worth of lift, it's not efficient to run it.
You also have to make sure that there's enough traffic to ensure a shift for the employees running it. If there's only 2-3 hours worth of lift, it's not efficient to run it.
Well there's plenty of traffic generated in the Sioux City area to keep contractors busy at an IM ramp for a good 12 hour period. There's an assortment of meat packers, food processors, and cold storage. Also Cargill has a large facility for soybean processing, and Storm Lake, IA is only about a 70 mile dray to hypothetical IM ramp. Tyson Foods has 2 processing plants there..
Also railroads don't operate any drayage. That's handled by O/O's or drayage companies. There's no investemnt from the RR at that end. As well at many of the nations IM ramps. Contrators provide the lift equipment and operators..
I like Greyhounds idea of a "Union IM Ramp" It could be operated by a WATCO or Savage..
That's assuming you can get all that traffic to use intermodal.
The Council Bluffs (IAIS/UP) and Omaha (BNSF) intermodal facilities aren't that far away from Sioux City. Both of those locations are on their main routes. IM traffic from Sioux City is going to move in manifest trains to a point where they can be put on a train towards their final destinations.
I don't know about BNSF, but UP doesn't move IM east out of Council Bluffs. Nor does it move loads from the Chicago area into CB. There is an IM train that sets out containers for CB, that a manifest then picks up for the yard. But anytime I've looked, the containers are empty, going to CB to be loaded for western destinations in the area. Maybe even in Sioux City.
CN, of any of them, would probably benefit most from an IM facility at Sioux City. They are the farthest from an IM facility of their own. Their closest facilities are in Wisconsin and the Chicago area.
Jeff
You wouldn't need to get all the traffic converted to intermodal. Sioux City alone handles approximately 4500 truckloads inbound/outbound daily. Roughly 15% of those loads could be converted to intermodal. 675 loads O/D. Plenty of terminal work; Lifting, flips(which is mounting a container on a chassis), roadability (repairing and inspecting chassis), and other maintenance items. To keep contractors busy for 12 hrs.
The distance between Sioux City, Council Bluffs and Omaha is 94 miles via I-29. So I wouldn't say they are not that far apart. The average distance for a dray between the points is about the same. This isn't a problem for IM over 1000 miles. As linehaul cost can absorb that dray penalty. However it's a problem for short haul IM. Dray cost can make or break an IM lane. The C1's can only pick low hanging fruit for so long... In order for shorthaul IM to work one of the items needed to make SHIM cost effective, and competitive. Dray distances have to be reduced significantly.
SD60MAC9500You wouldn't need to get all the traffic converted to intermodal. Sioux City alone handles approximately 4500 truckloads inbound/outbound daily. Roughly 15% of those loads could be converted to intermodal. 675 loads O/D. Plenty of terminal work; Lifting, flips(which is mounting a container on a chassis), roadability (repairing and inspecting chassis), and other maintenance items. To keep contractors busy for 12 hrs. The distance between Council Bluffs and Omaha is 94 miles via I-29. So I wouldn't say they are not that far apart. The average distance for a dray between the points is about the same. This isn't a problem for IM over 1000 miles. As linehaul cost can absorb that dray penalty. However it's a problem for short haul IM. Dray cost can make or break an IM lane. The C1's can only pick low hanging fruit for so long... In order for shorthaul IM to work. Dray distances have to be reduced significantly. Yes CN could use a SCIM ramp.. More so for matchback export agri-loads.
You certainly do know what you are talking about.
For anyone interested in the Sioux City areas freight and infrastructure. Here's a study comissioned back in 2018.
https://www.sioux-city.org/home/showpublisheddocument/20544/636795353837530000
It's a fairly big study, but it lays out; rail, road, and marine improvements for the area. Also tonnages moved by mode, domestic, and international.
Also here's some maps of Iowa truck traffic https://iowadot.gov/maps/msp/pdf/TruckTrafficMap.pdf
https://iowadot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=0cce99afb78e4d3b9b24f8263717f910
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