After all Ed Ellis was the Mark Zuckerburg of the short line railroad industry. He waa a guest columnist in several railroad publications including this one. His ideas for improving the railroad costumer experance both freight and passenger seemed solid. I guess this is why they don't let railfans run railroads.
To use a phrase comonly applied to eating - his eyes were bigger than his stomach.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
He pushed the envelope, especially in passenger rail. The money he made in freight rail could not support the passenger losses. He failed like all dozen or so US private rail operations since the Amtrak Era.
And therein lies a lesson or two to be learned about passenger services.
.... among other things was the shell game with OPM. Iowa Pacific/Permian basin got called on it and couldn't deliver.
Heh, most of the old Iowa Pacific Holding website is still up, having (mostly) operational links to the invidual railroad pages (the main page no longer seems to have those links, so I linked to the Chicago Terminal one).OK, those former Iowa Pacific railroads are now scattered, but what could it have been done different (pick your point of departure - e.g. 2002 or so on) such that going forward they would have become by today, well...clearly not the next Genesee & Wyoming, but a reasonably prosperous and somewhat sizable railroad holding company.
MidlandMikeHe pushed the envelope, especially in passenger rail. The money he made in freight rail could not support the passenger losses. He failed like all dozen or so US private rail operations since the Amtrak Era.
I read an article in RA on this or commentary on another railway board. Minus the passenger rail he would have been in trouble as well. He had maybe in his portfolio of short lines one or two strong ones, the rest were not really break even. I believe he sold his strongest short line off to finance the passenger rail business and by doing so......pulled the rug out from under both his weak short lines and the future ability to support the rail passenger business after the sale proceeds (gain on investment) ran out from the first short line sale.
That was the argument made.
The problem with passenger/tourist rail is that it often isn't where the people are. Cast off branches in the middle of nowhere that often involve hours of travel to reach. And often without any accompanying attractions to help draw people in.
A few lines have managed to survive, and even thrive, under those circumstances. Usually they have some specific draw (steam) that ropes people in.
OTOH, well-planned commercial passenger service oftimes exceeds expectations.
He had scenic tourists trains and the LD nostalgia CHI-NOLA train, but I think the big disappointment was the CHI-IND Hoosier that he partnered with Amtrak. Unfortunately ATK unilaterally took off the top what they thought they needed, which didn't leave IP enough to make a go of it.
tree68The problem with passenger/tourist rail is that it often isn't where the people are. Cast off branches in the middle of nowhere that often involve hours of travel to reach. And often without any accompanying attractions to help draw people in. A few lines have managed to survive, and even thrive, under those circumstances. Usually they have some specific draw (steam) that ropes people in. OTOH, well-planned commercial passenger service oftimes exceeds expectations.
The Grapevine Steam Train just North of DFW Airport has thrived here in Dallas. The scenery totally sucks (unless your a railfan). The destination of Stockyards station in Fort Worth is so-so (it is a shopping and entertainment complex now). They rope in a lot of people and seem to be as profitable as the Grand Canyon railway as now they are building a large resort next to the Grapevine Steam Train and the Hotel Vin is made to look like a large train station outside and via the lobby........... https://www.hotelvin.com/
They also had the good luck of the Fort Worth T transit system buying all their track out from under them and upgrading it to run TEXRAIL to the Airport from Fort Worth. So now they have a newly redone main and signaling to boot.
The fact that this is the largest railroad bankruptcy since The Rock Island and Penn Central and nobody is writing about it in the railroad press or Barrons Wall Street Journal is a huge oversight.
CMStPnPThe Grapevine Steam Train just North of DFW Airport has thrived here in Dallas.
Which goes to what I said - with GST, they have a metroplex from which to draw passengers from. Most tourist lines run on abandoned lines, which were abandoned because there was no business (or people) on them.
Unless a tourist line has a significant drawing card (WM), they rely on folks willing to travel into the sticks for a train ride.
tree68 CMStPnP The Grapevine Steam Train just North of DFW Airport has thrived here in Dallas. Which goes to what I said - with GST, they have a metroplex from which to draw passengers from. Most tourist lines run on abandoned lines, which were abandoned because there was no business (or people) on them. Unless a tourist line has a significant drawing card (WM), they rely on folks willing to travel into the sticks for a train ride.
CMStPnP The Grapevine Steam Train just North of DFW Airport has thrived here in Dallas.
WM Senic, in addition to the 1309 as a drawing card, is a little over 2 hour trip from the Balto-Wash metropolitan area and about the same from Pittsburgh and all the highway trips are also somewhat secnic in their own right.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
roundstick3@gmail.com The fact that this is the largest railroad bankruptcy since The Rock Island and Penn Central and nobody is writing about it in the railroad press or Barrons Wall Street Journal is a huge oversight.
Bankruptcy does not necessarily mean these lines will be permanently closed. On the other hand, are any of these lines economically viable? Which ones?
Bangor and Aroostic went under in 2001 what became of them?
charlie hebdo Bankruptcy does not necessarily mean these lines will be permanently closed. On the other hand, are any of these lines economically viable? Which ones?
Their main freight railroad was the San Luis & Rio Grande, about 150 miles of line in Colorado. A Trustee is operating and maintaining it, and has recently been put up for auction. It has mining and ag traffic.
The Mt. Hood RR in Oregon appears to be operating its tourist train, and also hauls some freight.
roundstick3@gmail.com Bangor and Aroostic went under in 2001 what became of them?
Bangor and Aroostook Railroad - Wikipedia
Backshop roundstick3@gmail.com Bangor and Aroostic went under in 2001 what became of them? There's this wonderful new search engine called Google. He will be your friend. So what was your prior username? Bangor and Aroostook Railroad - Wikipedia
There's this wonderful new search engine called Google. He will be your friend. So what was your prior username?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Speculation ! Social gamesmanship(?): Railfans seem to forget that Bankruptcy, in all its iterations has been a "Tool" of the railroad industry for quite a while... Iowa Pacific, and it's various entities was a 'darling' of many of us for a long time. Unfortunately, the money from operations seemed to fail,in sustaining the whole. In a way, it was almost a case of 'financial diabetes'....pieces must be 'shed' to save the rest of the body. (?)
Neither is pretty, or 'fun', but might help 'survival'(?)
Ed Ellis, and his plan, has at least my sympathy.
Murphy Siding User names, plural, lots of them.
User names, plural, lots of them.
Backshop Murphy Siding User names, plural, lots of them. Was he C&O For Progress, etc?
Was he C&O For Progress, etc?
It's kinda sad that someone has to be a troll on a website with under a hundred regular posting members.
BackshopIt's kinda sad that someone has to be a troll on a website with under a hundred regular posting members.
1/2 to 1% trolls - sounds about right.
I agree with your premise. I firmly think that Amtrak fully intended to "bleed out" IP on the Hoosier State contract becasue they knew that IP would fully show up Amtrak. Show up Amtrak for all that IP offered in terms of service that Amtrak showed no interest in providing. Early on Amtrak did very last minute spot inspections of the train and found some fault to cancel the train.....making IP eat the cost of substitute busses and having to pay Amtrak to ferry their equipment to either Chicago or Indy.
Sadly I believe that Ed Ellis let himself be fooled by Amtrak with their "poison pill" provision in the contract that gave Amtrak more money and IP less and the train became more successful. I think the blame for that goes to the State of Indiana for not doing anything to change the contract to help IP and Ed Ellis for thinking he would get a good deal from Amtrak because he used to be an exec with them.
I don't know. From the on-board videos of the Hoosier State IP trains - the coaches just looked old. Not "classy chic" old, but "tired & your grandmother's home" old. I don't know if that really showed up anyone.
Most of the riders aren't railfans. They want nice coaches with multiple outlets/usb ports that look modern.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
I rode Ellis' Hoosier once. Zugmann is right. A nostalgia special with cars painted up in the beautiful IC livery of the past. Inside old and not very appealing. I think Ellis bid low, below cost, thinking he could renegotiate a better deal if his service was successful in drawing repeat business.
charlie hebdo I think Ellis bid low, below cost, thinking he could renegotiate a better deal if his service was successful in drawing repeat business.
I think Ellis bid low, below cost, thinking he could renegotiate a better deal if his service was successful in drawing repeat business.
This topic came up on another site just the other day, here's a couple quotes from people 'in the know'.
RJR: "Ed Ellis was an idiot. He took $500K of the $4.9 million stipend to run that train. Amtrak got $4.4 million to supply an engineer and a conductor. Ed got $500K to supply OBS, train sets and locomotives. Ed was a shitty businessman and in general a crook. I regard him as the Bernie Ebbers and Bernie Madoff of the railroad business. He screwed everyone so he could go play trains."
PB: "As a former employee at one of Ed’s railroads, I can say he picks the absolute worst people to manage his railroads. He would bring in new mangers, and they were basically the worst possible candidate in the entire country for that position. I heard they were friends of his or something."
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
For one the original Chicago-based Chicago Terminal (CTM) operation on the former MILW lines was doomed by the rapid loss of industries almost immediately after IP took over from Canadian Pacific. Peerless Confectionery literally closed down less than five months after CTM took over, Finkl Steel relocated to the South Side, General Iron moved to barges and trucks, then shut down, and Big Bay Lumber closed. Sipi Metals the other customer got perhaps one or two loads every several months.
IP tried to recruit new customers for CTM on Goose Island and along Kingsbury Street but the whole North Side area was changing from industrial to residential, distribution, and retail so it was a losing effort.
Progressive Rail seems to be doing quite well with the UP and CP industrial lines in Elk Grove Village and Bensenville, IL, adjacent to O'Hare Airport, that they took over from the other CTM operation. The business obviously was and is there for a shortline.
Perhaps if IP had simply focused on shortline railroads hauling freight the outcome would have been different-and they could have become another OmniTRAX or Progressive Rail.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.