jeffhergert greyhounds Backshop Railroads do best with bulk commodities that don't need repetitive handling. Look at it this way---a unit train of trailers may be 200 trailers moving long distance with minimal handling. It needs a haul of at least 550-600 miles to be competitive with an OTR driver who needs to rest for 8-10nhours after that amount of time. So you have 6-8 railroaders doing the work of 200 OTR drivers. When you get below that, the driver can finish the haul in under a day. Also, once you get down to, let's say 20 trailers, the ratio of drivers to train crew is a lot closer. Forget about any "we'll just get cheaper labor to handle it" scheme, as railroads are having trouble finding good help at current wages. It's in no way about going down to 20 trailers. It's about going up to 220 trailers. Railroad operating people will insist on running past all kinds of money and freight to avoid making a pick up. It's just too hard for them. It was the marketing department, not the operating department that shot down loading containers at Beverly. That got me thinking about many of the things that have been shot down by the people in the glass place. They all were developed at the local level. They weren't developed at the top from just a tip given by those in the field. Could there be a problem with someone feeling their toes are being stepped on? There is some meat going west out of Council Bluffs. Sometimes a westbound intermodal will be diverted through the Bluffs to pick up loaded containers of meat. I've been on such trains a couple of times in the past. It's been awhile, but I think it was all export, not for domestic consumption. Jeff
greyhounds Backshop Railroads do best with bulk commodities that don't need repetitive handling. Look at it this way---a unit train of trailers may be 200 trailers moving long distance with minimal handling. It needs a haul of at least 550-600 miles to be competitive with an OTR driver who needs to rest for 8-10nhours after that amount of time. So you have 6-8 railroaders doing the work of 200 OTR drivers. When you get below that, the driver can finish the haul in under a day. Also, once you get down to, let's say 20 trailers, the ratio of drivers to train crew is a lot closer. Forget about any "we'll just get cheaper labor to handle it" scheme, as railroads are having trouble finding good help at current wages. It's in no way about going down to 20 trailers. It's about going up to 220 trailers. Railroad operating people will insist on running past all kinds of money and freight to avoid making a pick up. It's just too hard for them.
Backshop Railroads do best with bulk commodities that don't need repetitive handling. Look at it this way---a unit train of trailers may be 200 trailers moving long distance with minimal handling. It needs a haul of at least 550-600 miles to be competitive with an OTR driver who needs to rest for 8-10nhours after that amount of time. So you have 6-8 railroaders doing the work of 200 OTR drivers. When you get below that, the driver can finish the haul in under a day. Also, once you get down to, let's say 20 trailers, the ratio of drivers to train crew is a lot closer. Forget about any "we'll just get cheaper labor to handle it" scheme, as railroads are having trouble finding good help at current wages.
It's in no way about going down to 20 trailers. It's about going up to 220 trailers.
Railroad operating people will insist on running past all kinds of money and freight to avoid making a pick up. It's just too hard for them.
It was the marketing department, not the operating department that shot down loading containers at Beverly. That got me thinking about many of the things that have been shot down by the people in the glass place. They all were developed at the local level. They weren't developed at the top from just a tip given by those in the field.
Could there be a problem with someone feeling their toes are being stepped on?
There is some meat going west out of Council Bluffs. Sometimes a westbound intermodal will be diverted through the Bluffs to pick up loaded containers of meat. I've been on such trains a couple of times in the past. It's been awhile, but I think it was all export, not for domestic consumption.
Jeff
Yep. It is export pork products going to Asia. More than likely headed to the Port Of Oakland. However some may go to POLA/POLB, and NSA(Northwest Sea Alliance Seattle/Tacoma).
There has always been a lot of NIH (not invented here) that comes out of Board Rooms. They have the belief that ONLY they can see the future for the company.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Backshop You keep talking about adding your business to current trains, yet railroaders keep telling you that the trains are too long already. Do you know how long these extra pickups take? It's different than the days of 4 man crews and 80 car trains. Why don't you take your ideas to professional executive railroaders if they are so great and sure moneymakers? That's right, because they told you "bye-bye" 30 years ago.
You keep talking about adding your business to current trains, yet railroaders keep telling you that the trains are too long already. Do you know how long these extra pickups take? It's different than the days of 4 man crews and 80 car trains.
Why don't you take your ideas to professional executive railroaders if they are so great and sure moneymakers? That's right, because they told you "bye-bye" 30 years ago.
Ken places too much emphasis on incremental revenue, as though the infrastructure could always handle any additional carloads gratis. What you and Ed said he dismisses. He also places too much blame on regulation and the government. Ideology has no place in a business discussion.
BackshopRailroads do best with bulk commodities that don't need repetitive handling. Look at it this way---a unit train of trailers may be 200 trailers moving long distance with minimal handling. It needs a haul of at least 550-600 miles to be competitive with an OTR driver who needs to rest for 8-10nhours after that amount of time. So you have 6-8 railroaders doing the work of 200 OTR drivers. When you get below that, the driver can finish the haul in under a day. Also, once you get down to, let's say 20 trailers, the ratio of drivers to train crew is a lot closer. Forget about any "we'll just get cheaper labor to handle it" scheme, as railroads are having trouble finding good help at current wages.
charlie hebdo greyhounds So, how did it get to this point with the railroads? Perhaps because with rails there is greater need for capital infrastructure which would be unrecoverable if the new project failed?
greyhounds So, how did it get to this point with the railroads?
Perhaps because with rails there is greater need for capital infrastructure which would be unrecoverable if the new project failed?
A view on business in general as to how we have gotten to were we are -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaCSbdNsLQk
Railroads do best with bulk commodities that don't need repetitive handling. Look at it this way---a unit train of trailers may be 200 trailers moving long distance with minimal handling. It needs a haul of at least 550-600 miles to be competitive with an OTR driver who needs to rest for 8-10nhours after that amount of time. So you have 6-8 railroaders doing the work of 200 OTR drivers. When you get below that, the driver can finish the haul in under a day. Also, once you get down to, let's say 20 trailers, the ratio of drivers to train crew is a lot closer. Forget about any "we'll just get cheaper labor to handle it" scheme, as railroads are having trouble finding good help at current wages.
greyhoundsSo, how did it get to this point with the railroads?
greyhounds So, how did it get to this point with the railroads? (And I’ve been there.) How do the railroads get past this point?
Isn't it all about the minimum length of intermodal haul required for profit? What is that, something like 500-700 miles? Perhaps that determines the intermodal terminal spacing. Most trucks going to/from Iowa from the greater Midwest aren't going to use rail. If the load is going far west via. intermodal, it'll be driven to the ramp in Council Bluffs. If east, it'll drive to Chicago. If south, Kansas City, etc.
If UP did try to open a small ramp in Marshalltown, making intermodal blocks for the PSR trains to pick up, wouldn't it still be faster to drive the loads to the existing terminals? The pick-up trains are just going to crawl to those terminals anyway, and upon arrival the blocks would sit in them for many hours, probably.
Multiple railroads have tried and almost all have failed at short haul intermodal. The local drayage cost and the cost per lift are key factors. The move away from traditional piggyback hasn't helped. Someone needs to invent a low-cost rapid loading railcar technolgy.
- Ed Kyle
Overmod Where is the nearest convenient long-distance train makeup facility to Marshalltown? (I'm too lazy to pull up Open Railway Map).
Where is the nearest convenient long-distance train makeup facility to Marshalltown? (I'm too lazy to pull up Open Railway Map).
Marshalltown. Beverly. Boone. Des Moines. They all have yards. Des Moines regularly originates and terminates trains long distance trains. Marshalltown, Beverly, Boone, and Clinton have originated and/or terminated long distance trains depending on the Transportation plan in effect. They all still occasionally originate or terminate extras. All have multiple through trains that pickup or setout daily. (The extras come when the yards have too many cars that the regular trains can't handle.) A lot of traffic going through these places isn't destined for them, but part of the block swapping brought on by PSR.
Des Moines recently started construction on a transload facility to be served by all the railroads serving Des Moines. I don't believe an intermodal facility is included at this point. It would probably be a good place to have one. Traffic would move in manifests, at least to the point where they could be added to other trains.
Iowa Interstate used to have intermediate ramps at West Liberty (east of Iowa City) and Newton. Both have been closed and only their Chicago area and Council Bluffs ramps remain. I believe the West Liberty ramp closed because of lack of business and Newton closed with the loss of Maytag.
SD70DudeBut it probably is a 'bet my job' situation for the manager who suggests spending money on this sort of thing. And that's how middle to upper management will view this sort of situation, they can only think of the costs and downsides if it doesn't work perfectly, not the potential upside and greater revenue. Why would anyone stick their neck out and risk everything when they can just putter along doing day to day tasks and fly under the radar of upper management?
SD70Dude greyhounds What is the issue? Just what is there to lose by establishing a small, low-cost intermodal terminal in Marshalltown, Iowa? Then adding the originating loads to an existing schedule? It’s in no way a bet the company situation. You're right, it's definitely not a 'bet the farm' situation. But it probably is a 'bet my job' situation for the manager who suggests spending money on this sort of thing. And that's how middle to upper management will view this sort of situation, they can only think of the costs and downsides if it doesn't work perfectly, not the potential upside and greater revenue. Why would anyone stick their neck out and risk everything when they can just putter along doing day to day tasks and fly under the radar of upper management? It's not just train crews who are looked down on and viewed as disposable and replaceable. This didn't start with the PSR, but it has definitely made it a lot worse.
greyhounds What is the issue? Just what is there to lose by establishing a small, low-cost intermodal terminal in Marshalltown, Iowa? Then adding the originating loads to an existing schedule? It’s in no way a bet the company situation.
You're right, it's definitely not a 'bet the farm' situation.
But it probably is a 'bet my job' situation for the manager who suggests spending money on this sort of thing. And that's how middle to upper management will view this sort of situation, they can only think of the costs and downsides if it doesn't work perfectly, not the potential upside and greater revenue.
Why would anyone stick their neck out and risk everything when they can just putter along doing day to day tasks and fly under the radar of upper management?
It's not just train crews who are looked down on and viewed as disposable and replaceable.
This didn't start with the PSR, but it has definitely made it a lot worse.
In the Class 1 hierarchy those in the Board Room feel that they are the only ones that aren't just common labor. Everyone else is expendable and will save money for the corporation if they are shown the door.
https://iowadot.gov/iowarail/railroads/maps/basemap.pdf
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
greyhounds OK, everybody has got their favorite villain. Leading the pack of villains is PSR. Well, the railroads didn’t try to develop this market before PSR and they’re not trying to develop this market with PSR. So, I’ll reason that PSR is not, therefor, a factor. But people like a villain to blame and PSR will do just fine. True or false, it’ll do. Some years ago, I was involved in an effort to move meat by rail from the Sioux City area to the west coast. We found out that Tyson, all by itself, had 300 loads per week going to the west coast. And Tyson is just part of the market opportunity. (A market opportunity that is being increased by the Farmer John closure.) What is the issue? Just what is there to lose by establishing a small, low-cost intermodal terminal in Marshalltown, Iowa? Then adding the originating loads to an existing schedule? It’s in no way a bet the company situation. You’d have to go talk to Tyson, JBS, Quaker, and General Mills. You’d have to come up with an operation that met their needs. If you can do that, go ahead. If you can’t do that, go on to the next perceived opportunity. If it flops, it flops. There is no certainty. So do the research and analysis as best you can. If it looks good, give it a go. If you never fail, you’re not trying hard enough. Why doesn't this happen? Of course, the operating officials will be adamant that a pick up at Marshalltown is absolutely out of the question.
Am wondering, however, if this might actually strengthen the case for a new intermodal facility at, say, Cedar Rapids which would probably have a higher volume and be a bit more of an attractive option for a UP or a CN.
But I'm like you in that I'm perplexed as to why CN won't finally get off its dole and start really taking a hard look at these types of opportunities in Iowa.
Gramp Ulrich California ahead of the curve again as they are on so many things. Is that why so many Californians have moved to Arizona, kept their California jobs, and work remote from Arizona? ;)
Ulrich California ahead of the curve again as they are on so many things.
Is that why so many Californians have moved to Arizona, kept their California jobs, and work remote from Arizona? ;)
I keep thinking back to Aberdeen and Rockfish and their double-stack operation with those funky lime-green containers...
Is there some reason the traffic wouldn't accommodate either a reasonable block of 3/6-container cars or a dedicated intermodal shuttle -- assuming this is a container move? Same would apply for spines in van service, with some allowance for intermodal van moves in the latter case.
It can be done. However you're going to need a partner as I mentioned above to operate these small facilties. Just like Savage partnered with UP in Pocatello. The same formula needs to be applied here.
The C1's don't want, and are not going to use their CAPEX toward low density terminals..
This is one of the reasons why shorthaul intermodal won't take off.. What needs to possibly happen is the C1's continue to operate their high volume stack facilites. With agents (Again WATCO, or Savage) operating these low density terminals, and performing traffic solicitation. This would be similar to how CSX's NWO hub and spoke network.
To the term PSR I guess we might as well stop using it. As the railroads don't even practice PSR.. It should be called ORR..
charlie hebdo tree68 charlie hebdo Well of course it is. The discussion was about marketing and seeking new revenue streams. But those activities cost money. Can't be doing that. I want that money in my pocket, not used to pay some marketing flack... We here would certainly like to see the railroads seek new markets, but past accounts of railroad activity don't seem to support that concept. Just a thought. In some cases, the railroads may be approaching the current limit of operation capacity. I don't know if that is true or not.
tree68 charlie hebdo Well of course it is. The discussion was about marketing and seeking new revenue streams. But those activities cost money. Can't be doing that. I want that money in my pocket, not used to pay some marketing flack... We here would certainly like to see the railroads seek new markets, but past accounts of railroad activity don't seem to support that concept.
charlie hebdo Well of course it is. The discussion was about marketing and seeking new revenue streams.
But those activities cost money. Can't be doing that. I want that money in my pocket, not used to pay some marketing flack...
We here would certainly like to see the railroads seek new markets, but past accounts of railroad activity don't seem to support that concept.
Just a thought. In some cases, the railroads may be approaching the current limit of operation capacity. I don't know if that is true or not.
It is not true.
An "expensive model collector"
Well given that the STB just ordered the UP to service Foster Farms as the CUSTOMER needs I highly doubt that UP would care if they had this plant to service. They literally had to be ordered to serivce the 4th largest chicken processor in the nation with daily serivce and the largest in CA.
We had the whole discussion about facing-point switches in threads about the Cayce wreck, and it need not be repeated here. As a short opinion:
Joe (who operated on the New Haven and successors) pointed out that "safety" involves restricted speed commencing at a known distance from "any" facing-point switch -- with the idea that a train would stop in half the distance to misaligned switchpoints. You flag that distance with temporary MOW boards f you can't rely on pilots or route knowledge. I note that the actual 'reaction' distance is comparatively short distance, with very little effective difference between freight and passenger trains, so reduction to effective 'restricted speed' would have to commence comparatively far from each switch.
Note that specialized legislation regarding SPAFs might as well have been printed on toilet paper for all it did in the particular circumstances. That, to me, does not bode well for operation at 59mph in the absence of signals or PTC functionality that would detect and flag an open facing-point... or misaligned trailing-point... switch for a passenger movement.
Can we get back to opportunities knocking in freight facilitation?
Just a thought. In some cases, the railroads may be approaching the current limit of operation capacity. I don't know if that is true or not. I have noticed that the UP in western Chicago is running more and longer freight trains now than four years ago.
n012944 daveklepper Before Harrison, if signal-protection for a facing-point switch into a siding wads disabled for a week before PTC replacemenbt, there would have been additional supervision or a slow-order on the affected stretch of trasck. And an Amtrack train would not have plowed into stading freight cars after taking the siding-aligned at almost track speed. As has been said before, you are incorrect. The only "slow order" that would have been put out would have been the restrictions for being dark territory (49 MPH), which were in effect for the accident you reference. I have done lots of signal suspensions before and after EHH, you are not talking facts.
daveklepper Before Harrison, if signal-protection for a facing-point switch into a siding wads disabled for a week before PTC replacemenbt, there would have been additional supervision or a slow-order on the affected stretch of trasck. And an Amtrack train would not have plowed into stading freight cars after taking the siding-aligned at almost track speed.
Before Harrison, if signal-protection for a facing-point switch into a siding wads disabled for a week before PTC replacemenbt, there would have been additional supervision or a slow-order on the affected stretch of trasck. And an Amtrack train would not have plowed into stading freight cars after taking the siding-aligned at almost track speed.
As has been said before, you are incorrect. The only "slow order" that would have been put out would have been the restrictions for being dark territory (49 MPH), which were in effect for the accident you reference. I have done lots of signal suspensions before and after EHH, you are not talking facts.
I'll second that. Speed limits in Dark Territory (unsignaled - for whatever the reasons). Freight maximum speed is 49 MPH; Passenger is 59 MPH.
After my post, a refresh of the forum had several new posts: Zugmann = Eventually? Yep, so true. endmrw0616220948
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