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Diesel Fuel

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Posted by zugmann on Friday, May 13, 2022 1:13 PM

IMO some movies just need that theater experience.  

 

Although I do like to go a weekday the week or 2 after premier.  Sometimes you can get an unofficial private showing.  I do enjoy the pre-purchased, assigned stadium seating of the current theaters, though.  

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, May 13, 2022 1:07 PM

BaltACD
And these days for a variety of reasons - movie theaters are rapidly dying.  Covid being the most recent excuse, but that is just one of many over the years.

Theaters around here have started selling alcohol, and some even offer delivery of food and beveragees right to your seat...

It's still a reach, though.  With the wide flat screens, streaming, and sound systems now available, many folks would prefer to sit in the comfort of their own home and avoid those people sitting two rows ahead having a loud conversation throughout the movie...

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, May 13, 2022 10:56 AM

Flintlock76
 
MidlandMike
horizontal monopoly 

The first thing that sprung to my mind was the big movie studios that once owned their own network of theaters.  They were ordered to divest those holdings I think in the 1950's. 

And these days for a variety of reasons - movie theaters are rapidly dying.  Covid being the most recent excuse, but that is just one of many over the years.

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Posted by Backshop on Friday, May 13, 2022 9:29 AM

Enzoamps

Many decades ago we learned about monopolies.  Horizontal monopolies were  busted up so ONE company could not own say ALL the car factories.  Now I am old and foggy, but I seem to recall that vertical monopolies were also forbidden.  SO say a steel company couldn't also own the ore fields and the coal mines.  Something like that.

Am I just loopy, or did that exist.  If so where/when did it go?

 

US Steel owned the mines in Minnesota, the DM&IR to haul it to the docks.  The lake boats that hauled it to Ohio and Indiana, the B&LE, URR and EJ&E to haul it to the blast furnaces and many mines in PA and WV, so it wasn't illegal.  I heard from an employee that they were thinking of having the URR buy the old PRR Monongehela Division to get all the way down to the MRY in Brownsville.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, May 12, 2022 8:34 PM

MidlandMike
horizontal monopoly

The first thing that sprung to my mind was the big movie studios that once owned their own network of theaters.  They were ordered to divest those holdings I think in the 1950's. 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Thursday, May 12, 2022 7:41 PM

Standard Oil was a horizontal monopoly, owning most of the refining capacity.  In 1911 they were broken up into 11(?) companies.  Some of them have merged back together again: Exxon (Standard Oil New Jersy) and Mobil (Standard Oil Co of New York/SOCONY)

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Posted by Enzoamps on Thursday, May 12, 2022 7:29 PM

Many decades ago we learned about monopolies.  Horizontal monopolies were  busted up so ONE company could not own say ALL the car factories.  Now I am old and foggy, but I seem to recall that vertical monopolies were also forbidden.  SO say a steel company couldn't also own the ore fields and the coal mines.  Something like that.

Am I just loopy, or did that exist.  If so where/when did it go?

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Posted by MidlandMike on Thursday, May 12, 2022 7:18 PM

Backshop

Delta Airlines bought their own refinery in 2012 and now probably wishes they hadn't. Last I heard, they were looking for a buyer or a partner.

 

You still have to buy your crude feedstock from producers, and have it transported by pipeline.  While you have the fuel for the airports near the Philidelphia refinery, what good does that do for your airports scattered around the world.  Refineries are generally located in their own marketshed.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, May 12, 2022 11:49 AM

Backshop

Delta Airlines bought their own refinery in 2012 and now probably wishes they hadn't. Last I heard, they were looking for a buyer or a partner.

 

Not surprised.  Buying into a business isn't a good idea unless you understand how it works.  An old boss of mine often recieved tips from friends about businesses to buy into but he always refused, because he didn't understand them the way he understood his own.  

Delta most likely found out owning a refinery wasn't the advantage they thought it was going to be.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Thursday, May 12, 2022 2:44 AM

All our high horsepower units have WiTronix, and pretty much anyone with supervisor computer access can look up plenty of info about any train or unit, including fuel levels.  The dispatchers still often ask us to check though.  

Most newer units only have a sight glass near the top of the tank, it won't show any level under about 3000 gallons, so if the electronic display is B/O (a surprisingly common occurrence) there is no way to tell how much is in there.  

Also, just because they have access to information does not mean they will use it.  There have been a number of cases where units ran dry somewhere out on the road, one memorable case involved a single unit local switcher dying just after entering a short single track section between two long stretches of double track.  In this case the crew had reported the low fuel level to the trainmaster the previous day and had been assured it would be refuelled, and I guess they forgot to double check.  They ended up getting pushed back to the yard by a priority intermodal train.    

It was like watching Gordon and the express push a puffed out Percy back to the shed........

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Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, May 12, 2022 1:26 AM

BaltACD

 

 
Don't know about today, when I was still working, Engineers upon taking charge of a train were to report the fuel status of each of their locomotives to the Train Dispatcher, who would see that 'low fuel' situation were reported to Locomotive Management - who would put together a plan for fueling.  That plan would take into consideration such things as local price and if state taxes were a part of the local price.  Engineers were also required to report when locomotives in their charge dropped below 1000 gallons of fuel on board while they were in route.
 

We have instructions to report fuel below 2000 gallons.  I've noticed a lack of communications.  Most of our runs cover two dispatcher territories.  I've reported fuel levels to the first dispatcher.  Then when changing over to the next dispatcher, I'll report the current level.  They usually don't know anything about needing fuel.

With some of the newest engines, it's possible for dispatchers (and others) to "remote in" to see fuel status.  

Most of our refueling of through trains is done by truck.  There are some places where fuel vendors aren't available.  Something about not getting paid in a timely manner when previously doing business.

Jeff 

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Posted by Gramp on Wednesday, May 11, 2022 10:06 PM

Don't know how the testing of natural gas as a fuel for locomotives is going, but the first major renewable natural gas plant has opened outside of Nevada, Ia along UP. (Pronounced Nevayda). Uses crop waste as its resource. Ethanol is also produced there with other products to come. The gas produced is being pumped into an Alliant Energy pipeline. I realize it's going to go to where the best price can be had. Just kinda wish it could go into UP locomotives, even maybe by wire, never to need anti-American energy producers. 
https://www.verbio.us/project/verbio-nevada-biorefinery/
https://bioenergyinternational.com/grand-opening-of-verbio-nevada-biorefinery-held/

 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Wednesday, May 11, 2022 9:04 PM

Gramp
Do any of the railroads have ownership of a refinery and/or oil producing land?

Railroads owned a lot of land, especially in the west.  They would often have mineral rights under their land, and they may have severed and kept the mineral rights under land they sold.  They could develope the oil on their own (BN had an oil company) or lease out the mineral rights to oil developers and collect royalties.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, May 11, 2022 8:58 PM

Overmod
I thought that railroads arranged long-term locked-in contracts for fuel, with a variety of sources to protect against 'surprises' if one of them failed or encountered 'market difficulties'.

Even if a gallon of fuel 'goes further' for a train than for the equivalent number of trucks, I expect the good old fuel surcharges level the playing field within days or hours of Putin's or whoever's latest machination to raise pump prices.

Just hope none of the Class 1's 'futures contracts' was for Russian oil.  Railroads have been using virtually all financial and market means to lock in the least cost fuel possible.

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Posted by Backshop on Wednesday, May 11, 2022 8:57 PM

Delta Airlines bought their own refinery in 2012 and now probably wishes they hadn't. Last I heard, they were looking for a buyer or a partner.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, May 11, 2022 7:40 PM

I thought that railroads arranged long-term locked-in contracts for fuel, with a variety of sources to protect against 'surprises' if one of them failed or encountered 'market difficulties'.

Even if a gallon of fuel 'goes further' for a train than for the equivalent number of trucks, I expect the good old fuel surcharges level the playing field within days or hours of Putin's or whoever's latest machination to raise pump prices.

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, May 11, 2022 4:33 PM

The railroads are, of course, major users of Diesel fuel.  As such, they have tremendous leverage when dealing with suppliers.

They're still subject to market forces, but their price per gallon is going to be substantially lower than retail.  The same is likely true with the big trucking firms.

Those who will be hurt most will be the "little guys," both rail and trucking.

LarryWhistling
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Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, May 11, 2022 4:33 PM

Flintlock76
The answer to question one is "Maybe, maybe not."  I realize that's no answer but the thing is rising diesel fuel prices are going to effect the railroads too.  However what railroads pay for diesel fuel always has seemed to be a mystery.  

Question two?  I have no idea.  I don't think so, unless it's in an oblique way such as "Railroad X is owned by Company Y who also owns Oil Company Z." 

To the greatest extent possible, Class 1 railroads play the futures markets for purchase of bulk quantities of fuel.  When necessary the make 'local' purchases of fuel if the locomotives of a individual train are situated where they can't make the next company fuel depot without running dry.

Don't know about today, when I was still working, Engineers upon taking charge of a train were to report the fuel status of each of their locomotives to the Train Dispatcher, who would see that 'low fuel' situation were reported to Locomotive Management - who would put together a plan for fueling.  That plan would take into consideration such things as local price and if state taxes were a part of the local price.  Engineers were also required to report when locomotives in their charge dropped below 1000 gallons of fuel on board while they were in route.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, May 11, 2022 3:55 PM

The answer to question one is "Maybe, maybe not."  I realize that's no answer but the thing is rising diesel fuel prices are going to effect the railroads too.  However what railroads pay for diesel fuel always has seemed to be a mystery.  

Question two?  I have no idea.  I don't think so, unless it's in an oblique way such as "Railroad X is owned by Company Y who also owns Oil Company Z." 

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Diesel Fuel
Posted by Gramp on Tuesday, May 10, 2022 9:56 PM

Does the increase in diesel fuel price increase rail's competitiveness?

Do any of the railroads have ownership of a refinery and/or oil producing land?

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