I just googled Dollar General and Walmart to see where their DCs are. There aren't that many (considering) and they are well spread out. The thing about LV is that while it's large, it's in a several hundred mile wasteland as far as other, sizeable cities go.
Distribution Centers - Dollar General Careers
Walmart Distribution Center Network USA | MWPVL
I don't think there is enough "meat" there, for UP to even work up an appetite. Maybe 60 years ago.....but nowdays I suspect the potential is so small that they concede the business to truckers.
Convicted One What are the distribution patterns of the retailers serving Las Vegas? For instance if Dollar General already has it set up such that it is serving it's LV operations out of San Bernardino, I'm not sure how much of a benefit they would perceive from UP offering "hey, we'd like to take this business away from truckers". Considering the merchandise will still have to go on rubber tires between the end of the rails and its final destination, what are you really offering the customer that they don't already have?
What are the distribution patterns of the retailers serving Las Vegas? For instance if Dollar General already has it set up such that it is serving it's LV operations out of San Bernardino, I'm not sure how much of a benefit they would perceive from UP offering "hey, we'd like to take this business away from truckers".
Considering the merchandise will still have to go on rubber tires between the end of the rails and its final destination, what are you really offering the customer that they don't already have?
SD60MAC9500Here's a link to UP transit times for intermodal. While there's no LA-LV. There is LV-LA container service that get's PU by a stack service originating from UP's G2. In the search box put Las Vegas for origin then put Los Angeles for destination. Look at the transit time that pops up, and this will give you one of the clues to why LA-LV domestic service doesn't exist.. https://c02.my.uprr.com/fpa/intermodal-schedules/#/
https://c02.my.uprr.com/fpa/intermodal-schedules/#/
Using that UP link - it appears that Las Vegas doesn't receive Intermodal service from any of the origins listed in the link and the ONLY outbound destination for traffic from Las Vegas is Los Angeles.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
In other words, other than "cheap", what incentive is there? And how motivated for "cheap" is UP likely to be, for such a short haul?
BaltACDYou always write about moving meat so whenever you write anything meat is implied by default.
No way! I don't "Always" write about moving meat and I say what I mean. No implications involved.
You need to understand the basic concept. A product is produced/mined/grown/imported "Here" and used "There." Getting it from "Here" to "There" is what a railroad does for a living.
In this particular case the LA ports receive a whole lot of stuff from Asia. The large population of the Las Vegas area uses a significant portion of this "Stuff." So, the UP needs to figure out a way to move the freight from LA to Vegas.
The "Stuff" moving from LA to Vegas doesn't include much meat. And I never said it did.
greyhoundsI do believe the hand brakes could be set by a robot.
I think that could be done, but exactly how would that concept be executed? I can see one approach where the hanbrake stays the same, and some sort of automatic machine gets hold of it and turns the wheel. Another approach would be to add some type of accessory to the hand brake that would help the machine make the connection. Or add an accessory that is always there to set the handbrake in response to a remote command.
Here's a link to UP transit times for intermodal. While there's no LA-LV. There is LV-LA container service that get's PU by a stack service originating from UP's G2. In the search box put Las Vegas for origin then put Los Angeles for destination. Look at the transit time that pops up, and this will give you one of the clues to why LA-LV domestic service doesn't exist..
greyhounds BaltACD I am not aware of there being a plethora of meatpackers in LA that are necessary to supply the Las Vegas market of casino restaurants and buffets. I could be wrong. Meatpackers? Meatpackers? I don't need no stinking meatpackers! Did you see me write "Meatpackers?" Did you see ME write that? You did not. You are making stuff up. Meat will come into Vegas from the Midwest. Also Texas. But that's another opportunity. Chicken comes from the south. Here's what I really said: "The people in Las Vegas need things such as tires, toothpaste, bananas, shoes, orange juice, etc." And that is true. I certainly didn't mention meat.
BaltACD I am not aware of there being a plethora of meatpackers in LA that are necessary to supply the Las Vegas market of casino restaurants and buffets. I could be wrong.
Meatpackers? Meatpackers? I don't need no stinking meatpackers! Did you see me write "Meatpackers?" Did you see ME write that? You did not. You are making stuff up.
Meat will come into Vegas from the Midwest. Also Texas. But that's another opportunity. Chicken comes from the south.
Here's what I really said:
"The people in Las Vegas need things such as tires, toothpaste, bananas, shoes, orange juice, etc."
And that is true.
I certainly didn't mention meat.
You always write about moving meat so whenever you write anything meat is implied by default.
greyhounds Backshop just reread the OP. He's theorizing that UP doesn't service LV with intermodal just because one train doesn't stop there. It sounds like it may be a high priority LA-Midwest train. I'm sure there's other trains setting off blocks, though. The work is already being done. No, I said the UP does serve Vegas with intermodal. But they don't do LA-Vegas intermodal. I'm trying to come up with a way for them to do that and you're not helping.
Backshop just reread the OP. He's theorizing that UP doesn't service LV with intermodal just because one train doesn't stop there. It sounds like it may be a high priority LA-Midwest train. I'm sure there's other trains setting off blocks, though. The work is already being done.
No, I said the UP does serve Vegas with intermodal. But they don't do LA-Vegas intermodal. I'm trying to come up with a way for them to do that and you're not helping.
What's the durable goods market like in Las Vegas? If anything the only major market I see is for foodstuffs,and bottled water. Which would be coming from California and seasonal perishable from Arizona's Salt River District..Bottled water from the Midwest/Northeast.
Once you find that out. Then make the determination in LV needs IM service from LA. The items you listed may not be the core items for the Vegas market.
The fact may be alot of goods from POLA/POLB are not destined for LV due to market forces. If the outbound tenders aren't that great. I wouldn't expect UP to waste resources. To be frank I bet the durable goods that do terminate in LV orginate east of the Mississippi..
Is UP moving at least some of the outbound junk and bodies they're pulling out of depleted Lake Mead?
Maybe some small Pacemaker-size containers on flats with high speed trucks - 3-4 each hauled behind scheduled Brightline West Service as a mixed train. Haul in poker chips, champagne, and Casamigos tequila. Mixed train daily with a twist of lime.
zugmannAt least we figured out part of the problem: "handbrake setting robots"
No way!
The robot is part of the solution. It is not part of the "Problem."
BaltACDI am not aware of there being a plethora of meatpackers in LA that are necessary to supply the Las Vegas market of casino restaurants and buffets. I could be wrong.
At least we figured out part of the problem: "handbrake setting robots"!
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I am not aware of there being a plethora of meatpackers in LA that are necessary to supply the Las Vegas market of casino restaurants and buffets. I could be wrong.
I just reread the OP. He's theorizing that UP doesn't service LV with intermodal just because one train doesn't stop there. It sounds like it may be a high priority LA-Midwest train. I'm sure there's other trains setting off blocks, though. The work is already being done.
BaltACDGoogle doesn't show me any images of your robot to set hand brakes. Must not be one. Needs to be invented, just like PTC needed to be invented. What was the price tag for the carriers for PTC? $20B ? $30B ? Just chump change.
Officially it was priced at $18 Billion by TRAINS, not sure if the cost since has increased.
Google doesn't show me any images of your robot to set hand brakes. Must not be one. Needs to be invented, just like PTC needed to be invented. What was the price tag for the carriers for PTC? $20B ? $30B ? Just chump change.
OvermodHow would the OP run this without a dedicated switching and car crew taking over the 'road power' once it arrives "past" the north switch into the facility?
There's also a bunch of other industry right there - so plenty of work for UP crews to do.
zugmann Maybe I'm missing something - but in the linked satellite photo - there's already a switch engine (crew) there spotting up autoracks. So there is already intermodal traffic and autorack traffic being dropped off at the yard, and there already is a crew to handle it.
Maybe I'm missing something - but in the linked satellite photo - there's already a switch engine (crew) there spotting up autoracks.
So there is already intermodal traffic and autorack traffic being dropped off at the yard, and there already is a crew to handle it.
Sure is. Looks like an older SW type, and it's not a UP switcher. A contract switch serivce like I pretty much thought it would be. That switches both the auto ramp and the IM pad.. So the cost to switch this facility is minimal..
I had had the impression from the initial posts that this would be operated a bit like a glorified version of the GWR slip-coach idea:
The northbound block would detach from the rear of a proceeding train, slow itself 'autonomously' and then cross over as necessary to enter an intermodal yard, where it would progress, index its consist as needed, and stop. No backing, no filling, no complicated situational awareness -- and most importantly, no re-connecting to a train, no brake tests or other setup, no DP reconfiguration or unusual complex train movement, and no complex RCO-type movements of the consist until it is 'empty' or moved from the intermodal facility after all the loads for LV had been picked and any originating traffic placed.
1) The yard in question only has entrance from the 'northeast', and only one track could even remotely be fitted with a switch for direct access from LA;
2) it doesn't appear to me that either visible track is particularly long, so any reasonable block fitting the traffic projections won't fit without doubling. That would involve running an arrived consist up past the switch into the facility, backing it in RCO until near the tail of one track, then cutting the consist as needed (this being done without releasing air from the front half of the consist, with 'someone' tying down the rear-end cars as positioned. The consist now pulls up past the fouling point, the switch 'throws', and the consist backs into the other track, power and all... techincally I suppose we don't care if the power fouls, as neither block is going to have to move until all the business gets done. That is some complex crap, not incidentally including two shoves, for a simple autonomous rig to negotiate.
3) I don't think I could design a worse facility for modern intermodal container transfer. It appears to be designed around van sideloading, which I understand is now an unpopular technique, but there is little room at the end to get around a tied-down block, and what appears to be a parking lot impeding access to the southmost track, if indeed there are two tracks there for side access. No room to improve swing at the track ends, and I think no improvement room to put them there. No conceivable way to do circus loading and unloading of trailers unless I'm really missing something significant.
How would the OP run this without a dedicated switching and car crew taking over the 'road power' once it arrives "past" the north switch into the facility?
For a view of UP's intermodal (Valley) ramp in Las Vegas here you go,
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2723841,-115.0712868,915m/data=!3m1!1e3
[quote user="greyhounds”]
Nope. I don’t think it’s a good plan to need a switch engine and crew on duty and in position for this. Automate as much as possible to save dollars.
[/quote]
Automation has its place, but not here.. One UP maybe using a contract switcher to service this facility. An RCO could reposition the block with a track mobile, or better yet the train could work the facility as it's already block swapping here.. Sending an automated block on the fly would require extensive tech that probably is not worth the ROIC. Automation requires very high density point 2 point to generate a postive. This does not meet that requirement and would create a negative return as the traffic density is not there..
A local crew can switch this without a negative hit to cost.
Another note if you really want to grow the LA-LV market. COFC won't do it. TOFC will be the best choice..
I know how helperlink works.
Are you aware of how DPU works (Esp. in repsect to a brakepipe, and in regards to loss of telemetry)?
What about the EOT? Class-3 continuity tests? And where do we have automated RCOs setting up themselves and running and spotting up pads?
I'm sure none of these hurdles are insurmountable with enough time, money, and rewritten regulations, but to pretend they don't exist currently is disingenuous at best.
But whatever.
PS. I've seen a robot cutting a lawn, so that puts up about what? 60% there?
https://youtu.be/7NEwrjQtrKo
zugmannBut having automated engines to spot at an intermodal pad (technology that isn't even on the railroads) is not an unneccessary expense? I've worked trains where we ran thru a yard and dropped off a rear block, or had a crew slam one on. It doesn't take that long - plus you have to rehang the marker, do your class-3, and I don't think the feds are too willing to let DPUs not be tied onto the brakepipe yet. I guess all that can be automated. But at that point, why not have the trucks drive themselves from LA to the customers in LV, and not even HAVE an IM yard? Seems like if we're going to automate let's automate the damned thing completely.
OK, the technology does exist to do this.
Here's how to seperate the train and drop the Las Vegas block:
https://trademarks.justia.com/784/62/helperlink-78462644.html
Once that's done we use remote control operation (an established technology) to move the Vegas block to the terminal. Only instead of a person running the remote control there is a computer doing it. Nothing really new, just an adaption of existing technology.
Somebody seems to have the theme that humans are an unneccessary expense.
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