Tesla is reportedly building a large charging station at Barstow, halfway between LA and Vegas. The transportation topography continues to quake.
zugmann I don't know: https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-praises-chinese-tesla-factory-workers-forced-1848923913
I don't know:
https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-praises-chinese-tesla-factory-workers-forced-1848923913
I was referring to Tesla plants in US and Germany. For all of Musk's quirks and politics, Tesla has been very innovative and successful in spite of the naysayers, including on here.
SD70Dude charlie hebdo Rail's lack of innovation probably has more to do with the managers than labor. I agree with you there.
charlie hebdo Rail's lack of innovation probably has more to do with the managers than labor.
Rail's lack of innovation probably has more to do with the managers than labor.
I agree with you there.
The Board Room is the source of success or failure in any large organization.
They set policy and marching orders. We are seeing in Ukraine what happens when corrupt leadership believes their own press clippings and doesn't get 'buy in' from the 'employees'.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
And yet, for all the rulebooks and rail labor laws and unions, a survey of Microsoft or Tesla employees would likely show higher job satisfaction, with both managers and workers. Not with Amazon. Rail's lack of innovation probably has more to do with the mangers than labor.
jeffhergert SD70Dude It must be nice to be able to ignore or rewrite safety regulations and operating rules to suit any new operation you can think of. Those of us in the 1:1 physical world don't have that luxury. Actually, they do rewrite rules to suit new operations. RCO and energy managment systems have seen some rules "modified." In the US, the change to equipment being off-air for up to 24 hours and maintaining it's "solid block" status benefits the block swapping that's become more common with PSR. There is, or was, a pilot program going on to use defect detectors to do the 1000 mile brake inspections, mostly for unit trains that don't get broken up. If the temperature reading fell in the "Goldilocks" zone, not too cold or too hot, the brakes must be working OK. Yes, they'll surely change rules as they need to. Jeff
SD70Dude It must be nice to be able to ignore or rewrite safety regulations and operating rules to suit any new operation you can think of. Those of us in the 1:1 physical world don't have that luxury.
It must be nice to be able to ignore or rewrite safety regulations and operating rules to suit any new operation you can think of. Those of us in the 1:1 physical world don't have that luxury.
Actually, they do rewrite rules to suit new operations. RCO and energy managment systems have seen some rules "modified." In the US, the change to equipment being off-air for up to 24 hours and maintaining it's "solid block" status benefits the block swapping that's become more common with PSR. There is, or was, a pilot program going on to use defect detectors to do the 1000 mile brake inspections, mostly for unit trains that don't get broken up. If the temperature reading fell in the "Goldilocks" zone, not too cold or too hot, the brakes must be working OK.
Yes, they'll surely change rules as they need to.
Jeff
Detector readings can actually be a good indicator of individual car air brake performance in certain cases at certain locations. Both CN and CP have programmed detectors near the bottom of certain long grades (our Robson Hill and their west side of Rogers Pass as I understand it) to look for cold wheels in an effort to flag cars that leak off. Unfortunately this only became a focus after several runaways that were caused by air brake failure, and I wouldn't say this is a complete replacement for a stationary 'set and release' test (No. 1 or 1A).
The 24 hour off air period has been standard in Canada for a long time, certainly longer than I've been working. You still have to do a continuity test (what used to be called a No. 3 brake test) after adding cars to a train.
CN and presumably CP don't have to do roll out inspections of trains anymore if there is an automated inspection portal on the departing route up here. Again, this change took years to develop and get ok'd by the regulators, and how well it will work out remains to be seen.
The inspection portals are actually capable of being pretty good at spotting defects, but I have concerns over who controls them and how easily the readings and records can be manipulated, just like how air brake tests and maintenance records have been skipped or falsified in the past. And of course when a problem is found you still need people to fix it, and the railroads will use the portals as an excuse to eliminate a lot of carmen's jobs.
charlie hebdo SD70Dude unproven technology that requires rewriting key sections of the rulebook. Being stuck with rulebooks virtually guarantees there will be no innovation. Do you think the various innovative companies, such as Microsoft, Amazon and Tesla, used only proven tech and rulebooks?
SD70Dude unproven technology that requires rewriting key sections of the rulebook.
Being stuck with rulebooks virtually guarantees there will be no innovation. Do you think the various innovative companies, such as Microsoft, Amazon and Tesla, used only proven tech and rulebooks?
Amazon still moves a lot of their freight using what is now considered old and proven technology. Like airplanes, trucks, intermodal containers, and delivery drivers (the autonomous drones haven't taken over yet). Tesla's automobiles still have to meet crash safety regulations and follow the rules of the road, self-driving or not.
Amazon also seems to have taken a page out of the railroad playbook regarding employee treatment and relations. Not sure you should use them as an example to follow.
For us, Beltpack/RCO now has its own entire section of the rulebook. That technology took years to develop and get ok'd by the regulators. And the railroads perceived it to have a very large and immediate benefit in the form of eliminating engineers from most yard assignments. Also, if the change seemed to go a bit faster in the U.S. this may have been because CN originally developed the technology and had already established procedures and jumped through a lot of the regulatory hoops up in Canada.
I hope the proposed autonomous slip intermodal operation will be a lot more reliable than Trip Op and the electric handbrakes that railroads currently use.
zugmann charlie hebdo Being stuck with rulebooks virtually guarantees there will be no innovation. Do you think the various innovative companies, such as Microsoft, Amazon and Tesla, used only proven tech and rulebooks? They don't even follow labor law!
charlie hebdo Being stuck with rulebooks virtually guarantees there will be no innovation. Do you think the various innovative companies, such as Microsoft, Amazon and Tesla, used only proven tech and rulebooks?
They don't even follow labor law!
Carriers have yet to find a rule they don't want to violate.
charlie hebdoBeing stuck with rulebooks virtually guarantees there will be no innovation. Do you think the various innovative companies, such as Microsoft, Amazon and Tesla, used only proven tech and rulebooks?
SD70Dudeunproven technology that requires rewriting key sections of the rulebook.
zugmann If the demand is there, there is no practical reason why you couldn't insitute a LA-LV block at the current time. Acting like it's because there aren't self-driving trains or robots running around is a just an excuse.
If the demand is there, there is no practical reason why you couldn't insitute a LA-LV block at the current time. Acting like it's because there aren't self-driving trains or robots running around is a just an excuse.
Yep.
Greyhounds has spoken at length in the past about the incompetence of railroad marketing and operating management folks he's encountered. That's still the case today in one form or another.
Railroad upper management is inflexible and focused on the OR. Most mid and low level managers just want to stay the course and keep their jobs, because if they push a new idea and it doesn't work out perfectly it's a black mark on their career (or maybe they won't have a railroad career anymore).
This workplace culture does not foster innovation and chance taking, no matter whether it's adding short haul intermodal on existing trains using existing employees or new and unproven technology that requires rewriting key sections of the rulebook.
BTW, you aren't the first one to think of using robots to do on the ground switching work like operating handbrakes and uncoupling cars. Someone was granted a patent for this back in 2009. If it was so great and had no problems whatever happened to this idea?
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20100076631A1/en
charlie hebdoI am often critical of your posts but on this I tend to agree. Recapturing some lost traffic is necessary for a variety of reasons but once again a myriad of objections are raised. At the core, however, is the refrain, "Change is too damn hard. and "Our current jobs will change or even disappear."
It's not about change - it's about proposing "solutions" that have yet to be, and may never be, technological possible or financially feasable.
charlie hebdo "Our current jobs will change or even disappear."
A lot easier to say that when one is close the end of one's career.
BaltACD SD60MAC9500 greyhounds OK, this was interesting. People come on this forum and complain that railroads are losing market share to truckers. And that is true. But most freight moves shorter distances and that favors the economics of trucking. And that results in the loss of rail market share. So, if I try to (just for grins) come up with a reasonable plan to make rail competitive at a shorter distance the same folks who decry the loss of market share go nuts about the proposed changes. There are two things people don’t like: 1) The way things are 2) Change And we’ve seen that here. To make rail competitive at shorter distances costs must be removed from the rail operations. A way to do that is through automation. Such as having a robot set the hand brakes. Such a thought drives the Luddites nuts. But they offer no solution to the issue. To have the regular old switch crew go out there and do it just doesn't prove up. When you say LA-LV do you mean IPI(inland point intermodal which means the freight travels intact from vessel to receiver without transload)? Or does this freight travel in domestic 53's from transload to the LV market? Matter of fact.. Jeff if you read this I'm sure you handle stack trains across your division from G2 to the West Coast. Does your manifest show you the containers destination? If so would you be able to inform us on how many containers are headed to Las Vegas? In viewing the UP's own 'Intermodal Calculator'. The ONLY intermodal shown that affects Las Vegas is movement from Las Vegas to LA with a travel time of 3 days. No Origin in that calculator shows Las Vegas as a Destination. I have no idea what information beyond equipment initials and numbers are shown on UP (or for that matter any carrier other than CSX). On CSX destination cities were constricted to 9 characters with the USPS recognized two character state abbreviations. Shipper and Consignee information was also constricted to 9 characters as decreed by rules that defined how to utilize those 9 characters. The other thing to remember, the Carriers, view train consist information as proprietary data and not for public disclosure.
SD60MAC9500 greyhounds OK, this was interesting. People come on this forum and complain that railroads are losing market share to truckers. And that is true. But most freight moves shorter distances and that favors the economics of trucking. And that results in the loss of rail market share. So, if I try to (just for grins) come up with a reasonable plan to make rail competitive at a shorter distance the same folks who decry the loss of market share go nuts about the proposed changes. There are two things people don’t like: 1) The way things are 2) Change And we’ve seen that here. To make rail competitive at shorter distances costs must be removed from the rail operations. A way to do that is through automation. Such as having a robot set the hand brakes. Such a thought drives the Luddites nuts. But they offer no solution to the issue. To have the regular old switch crew go out there and do it just doesn't prove up. When you say LA-LV do you mean IPI(inland point intermodal which means the freight travels intact from vessel to receiver without transload)? Or does this freight travel in domestic 53's from transload to the LV market? Matter of fact.. Jeff if you read this I'm sure you handle stack trains across your division from G2 to the West Coast. Does your manifest show you the containers destination? If so would you be able to inform us on how many containers are headed to Las Vegas?
greyhounds OK, this was interesting. People come on this forum and complain that railroads are losing market share to truckers. And that is true. But most freight moves shorter distances and that favors the economics of trucking. And that results in the loss of rail market share. So, if I try to (just for grins) come up with a reasonable plan to make rail competitive at a shorter distance the same folks who decry the loss of market share go nuts about the proposed changes. There are two things people don’t like: 1) The way things are 2) Change And we’ve seen that here. To make rail competitive at shorter distances costs must be removed from the rail operations. A way to do that is through automation. Such as having a robot set the hand brakes. Such a thought drives the Luddites nuts. But they offer no solution to the issue. To have the regular old switch crew go out there and do it just doesn't prove up.
1) The way things are
2) Change
When you say LA-LV do you mean IPI(inland point intermodal which means the freight travels intact from vessel to receiver without transload)?
Or does this freight travel in domestic 53's from transload to the LV market?
Matter of fact.. Jeff if you read this I'm sure you handle stack trains across your division from G2 to the West Coast. Does your manifest show you the containers destination? If so would you be able to inform us on how many containers are headed to Las Vegas?
In viewing the UP's own 'Intermodal Calculator'. The ONLY intermodal shown that affects Las Vegas is movement from Las Vegas to LA with a travel time of 3 days.
No Origin in that calculator shows Las Vegas as a Destination.
I have no idea what information beyond equipment initials and numbers are shown on UP (or for that matter any carrier other than CSX). On CSX destination cities were constricted to 9 characters with the USPS recognized two character state abbreviations. Shipper and Consignee information was also constricted to 9 characters as decreed by rules that defined how to utilize those 9 characters.
The other thing to remember, the Carriers, view train consist information as proprietary data and not for public disclosure.
Balt use this link..
https://www.up.com/cs/groups/public/@uprr/@customers/documents/up_pdf_nativedocs/pdf_up_inter_cont-matrix.pdf
In the matrix there is a block from G2(Chicago) to Las Vegas. The LV traffic gets setout from an exisitng train. I'm just curioius if LV is getting most of its durable goods by rail from the East Coast.
greyhoundsThere are two things people don’t like: 1) The way things are 2) Change And we’ve seen that here. To make rail competitive at shorter distances costs must be removed from the rail operations. A way to do that is through automation. Such as having a robot set the hand brakes. Such a thought drives the Luddites nuts. But they offer no solution to the issue. To have the regular old switch crew go out there and do it just doesn't prove up.
I am often critical of your posts but on this I tend to agree. Recapturing some lost traffic is necessary for a variety of reasons but once again a myriad of objections are raised. At the core, however, is the refrain, "Change is too damn hard. and "Our current jobs will change or even disappear."
greyhounds So, if I try to (just for grins) come up with a reasonable plan to make rail competitive at a shorter distance the same folks who decry the loss of market share go nuts about the proposed changes. To make rail competitive at shorter distances costs must be removed from the rail operations. A way to do that is through automation. Such as having a robot set the hand brakes. Such a thought drives the Luddites nuts.
1. You don't do it "just for grins". You do it to lord over us that you're a "marketing professional"
2. You didn't do enough research to even know that the distance wasn't LA-LV but IE-LV.
3. Automation isn't always cheaper than a Mark 1 human being. How many handbrake setting robots would have to be produced to amortize development costs?
4. We're not "luddites", we're "realists". You're trying to solve today's problems with technology that doesn't even exist.
BEAUSABRE That stuff is rocket fuel - presumably the customer in Utah is Thiokol.
That stuff is rocket fuel - presumably the customer in Utah is Thiokol.
AP is the oxidizer for many formulations of solid rocket propelant. Customer in Utah is Northrop Grumman, who bought Alliant Techsytems, who bought Hercules powder (Magna) and Thiokol (Promontory). I've made several trips to the Magna site back in the Hercules/ATK days. The local LDS church that's sited next to the plant boundary was instucted not to have any glass facing the plant.
The AP blast in Henderson, NV was spectacular, reminded me of aerial shots of underground nuke tests.
And to keep this railroad related, we take you to Murdoch, IL in 1983. Watch for the flying tank car https://youtu.be/gRP5FeYenuI
And to keep this railroad related, we take you to Murdoch, IL in 1983. Watch for the flying tank car
https://youtu.be/gRP5FeYenuI
Which Tree refers to as BLEVE's.
Erik_MagOne chemical of interest being ammoniun perchlorate... A couple of the biggest customers for that are located in Magna and Promontory Utah.
That stuff is rocket fuel - presumably the customer in Utah is Thiokol. Here's what happened to a place called Pepcon that made ammonium perchlorate at Henderson, NV - just outside Lost Wages - about 30 years ago. The video is from a TV repair crew that was working on a TV antenna on a hill that overlooked Pepcon.
https://youtu.be/cPVpzjxRjPk
Of course, the whole point of this and your other threads seems to be to come up with ways to eliminate employees altogether. So everything I just wrote is irrelevant.
Once again, what would the operating ratio of this proposed new service be? And how does the time and cost of developing the technology and convincing the regulators to ok it figure into the OR calculation?
If the OR isn't below 60 then I bet UP won't be interested.
You've professed your love for Hunter Harrison and his brand of so-called PSR on multiple occasions over the years. Now all the Class I's are doing some version of it. Happy?
All this talk of self-driving Brandt road/rail trucks and overgrown automated slip coaches completely ignores the KISS principle. If you want to initiate LA-LV intermodal on an existing priority train just put the cars on the tail end and have a utility employee or yard crew do the coupling/uncoupling and EOT moving work while the road crews are trading off (I'm presuming Las Vegas is a crew change point for UP). Large terminals should have these guys on duty anyway, unless PSR got rid of them all.
If you need another locomotive to move the LA-LV block around just use anything that's DP capable. We get SD70s, Dash-9s and other newer high-horsepower units on short little locals on a regular basis because they happen to be available, surely the same could be done at UP. Or if the chosen unit isn't DP capable just set it up for dead haul while it's in the middle of the train, and this would also get around the need to set up or knock down DP and go through all the tests.
Or you could make it even simpler and put this intermodal traffic on a local or manifest that already has work at Las Vegas anyway..... ...it won't break any speed records but it should still be cheaper than trucking. This is what CN does for Vancouver-Calgary intermodal traffic, which also takes the scenic route via Edmonton. We can't compete with CP or trucks on a speed or distance basis, yet there is still a fair amount of this traffic. Of course it's all going to or from a boat in Vancouver, so an extra 12, 24 or 48 hours isn't exactly a deal breaker for this stuff.
greyhoundsI hate it when that happens.
Well, to my eye it looks like the railroads have gone out of their way to shed low volume business.
Exorbitant switch maintenance fees, and other tools of pain.
I really think that LA-LAV business, with all the work it takes t keep customers happy (we need 5 containers, 3 times a week, and they can NEVER be late, etc)
I suspect the RR's are glad to not have to fool with a lot of it
BackshopMost major retailers have DCs in the Inland Empire. Using a central point, the distance from San Bernardino to Vegas is only 225 miles. I doubt if LV is a large enough market to require its own DCs.
Well, 225 miles was too short for a rail move. But...
On highway diesel fuel is now averaging $6.46/gallon in California. (I don't doubt that Walmart has negotiated a discount. They're good at doing that.)
$6.46/gallon = $1.00/mile in trucking costs. Just for fuel. Add in the fact that Walmart starts it drivers at a minimum of $95,000/year. Moving the freight by truck is wasting scarce resources. Diesel fuel and driver hours. Plus the cost of a highway tractor is through the roof these days. So maybe, just maybe, there's an opportunity for rail here. Things have changed.
An additional fact. There are some indications that the market for freight is going down. Things always change and we all have to deal with the changes.
Convicted Onethey concede the business to truckers.
I hate it when that happens.
Pilot and Loves are putting out warnings of possible diesel shortages by late May 2022. Maybe that will translate to more rail traffic for Lost Wages.
https://www.overdriveonline.com/business/article/15292012/diesel-fuel-shortage-hits-the-northeast-insurance-minimum-increase-stymied-by-insurance-industry-lack-of-data
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