Many years ago, in the neighborhood of 45 years or more, I was told when hiring out to expect to be furloughed for the parts of the first 5 or so years. Every year the time furloughed would decrease until I could expect to not be furloughed. This anticipated no major downturns or changes in the industry. Of which the 1980s had both.
It also represented a time when most new-hires would be 18 into their mid 20s age wise. Before they had established families and obligations that come with them. People who could better weather the time furloughed. Plus good jobs were plentiful so someone could pick up something to tide them over. (Yes, I realize jobs are more plentiful at the current time. Prospective employees are in the driver's seat. I don't expect that to last and eventually the tables will turn, but I have no time line to project when that will happen.)
Now, they prefer to hire people who are more "established." They want at least a HS diploma/GED plus either a few years of further education or work experience. Generally older people who have a track record to give them a clue on future performance as an employee. People who are least able to weather the furloughs.
The furloughs themselves seem to be either more frequent and/or longer between times of employment. With the current desire to have as few people on the active list as possible, they cut at the drop of a hat. And are slow to add/call back, to the point they would've been better not to recall furloughed people. By the time they, those that do return, are ready to work the need has past and they get cut off again. How many times can a person with a family leave a decent job to return to the railroad?
Almost all of the railroad's problems in recruiting new employees are of their own making.
Jeff
BackshopWhen I figured out how many years it worked out to, his only comment was "well, that would explain the hemorhroids".
What? Was he flying by the seat of his pants?
jeffhergert... I don't know about others, but our company wants a certain reserve they can call on when they need to. I've heard 20% being the magic number. That means they want X number of people who are trained, but furloughed, whom they seem to think will come back when business surges. So someone near the end of the hiring spree may get trained, set up as a full fledged conductor, and then be furloughed without ever working a trip. Then, maybe, a few months or a year later, they might be recalled. Maybe, after their refresher training and trips, they might make a few trips before being cut off again. Not many return when recalled. And they wonder why. Jeff
I don't know about others, but our company wants a certain reserve they can call on when they need to. I've heard 20% being the magic number. That means they want X number of people who are trained, but furloughed, whom they seem to think will come back when business surges. So someone near the end of the hiring spree may get trained, set up as a full fledged conductor, and then be furloughed without ever working a trip. Then, maybe, a few months or a year later, they might be recalled. Maybe, after their refresher training and trips, they might make a few trips before being cut off again. Not many return when recalled. And they wonder why.
Don't know about present day furlough recall statistics are -
When I was working, generally less than 20% of furloughed train personnel would return to railroad service when recalled. A decade or more earlier the company would expect to get 80% or more the return when recalled.
Times Change.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Engineers: Back in the 1960's an automotive engineer apparently decided that he needed to get rid of the wife and kids. He was able to scarf a bottle of carbon monoxide (compressed gas) from his work place. He carefully drilled a hole in the firewall of his wife's car. When the were about to go somewhere, he said he had to tinker with something under the hood while they waited in the car. He placed the CO tubing through the hole and left the garage (the overhead door was closed). The plan worked, until it didn't.
Apparently he didn't consider that the entire garage would soon be filled with CO, not just the car. When he went out to the car to remove the apparatus - without opening the overhead door - he succumbed to the CO himself. The incident was only discovered when it was because he didn't show up for a meeting.
The incident was written up in one of those detective magazines. My father, a reserve police officer, was one of the first on the scene.
Dad had lots of stories about engineers who were book smart but lacked practical knowledge...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I've known people who were very academically inclined, but had trouble relating things to the real world.
When I hired out, at the hiring session one of the HR reps told us prospects that a HS diploma/GED was required. That person also said it was an artificial requirement. I think some requirements are to either show perserverance or limit the number of applicants for certain openings. Sometimes maybe because everybody else does it so we also need to do it.
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Today I stopped at a local convenience store to gas up the wife's car. One of the clerks mentioned to the other that she saw me quite often on the graveyard shift. She said that I seemed happier to be on days.
I said, "Well, I work for the railroad and work all hours." The clerk said, "Oh, I'm sorry." She said working for the railroad is a good job, but the hours can be bad. That is so very true.
When I hired out, they routinely had sessions over 4 days, using the 5th to make their decisions for the week. Each daily session would have 15 or 20 people show up. Out of the week they would have 10 to 15 total who would be offered jobs. Usually there were 2 to 3 weeks such as these every cycle to fill a couple new-hire classes.
Now when they have a session their lucky to get 10 people to show up for the entire week. The new-hire classes have been only 2 or 3 for a specific location. They then combine them with other areas to form a larger class.
Our natural, and unnatural, attrition rate is larger than the new people being hired. (Unnatural is those quitting because they're fed up with the railroad. Usually once you've been out here 7+ years, you don't voluntarily leave. It's amazing when I think of those who have left or are thinking about leaving with that much, or more, time in.) Some think this plays into the railroad's hand for one person crews.
Their are a few reasons for why the low turnout.
People have heard about the railroad lifestyle. Working all weather and all hours and days, including holidays and weekends, has always been part of the job. But with the PSR do a lot more with a lot less, continuouly working on your rest for many assignments with the only time off when you meet the RSIA maximums, which can somewhat be manipulated, doesn't appeal to many people. The BNSF attendence policy getting the most public spotlight, although others have ones just as onerous, doesn't help.
Never asserted that having a mechanical aptitude and having an engineering degree are the same thing. If they were I'd be a pretty fine engineer, as would most weekend mechanics. Lots of people are mechanically inclined yet aren't engineers.. far more in number I'm guessing than engineers who aren't mechanically inclined.. Im sure there are some, but I don't know of any.
Backshop In the US, flight hours required to get hired at an airline are higher than ever, thanks to legislation passed after the Colgan crash.
In the US, flight hours required to get hired at an airline are higher than ever, thanks to legislation passed after the Colgan crash.
If I read that accident report correctly, the irony is that he had more than the "necessary" 1500 hours at the time of the accident. So he was qualified at the time of the crash. The real problem was that he couldn't fly, but he kept getting passed along. It is not a surprise that the legislation didn't fix the problem.
It took awhile, but things caught up with the industry. No one with even a normal IQ wants to pay for a thousand hours of flight time for a minimum wage job.
Ulrich I don't know why.. nobody was making that assertion. Lots of people with no engineering degree have mechanical aptitude... I'd like to think I fall into that group..
I don't know why.. nobody was making that assertion. Lots of people with no engineering degree have mechanical aptitude... I'd like to think I fall into that group..
Yet, you said this... "The airlines were looking for intelligent people with a mechanical aptitude.. candidates who had an engineering degree clearly have both."
and this... " having a degree in something solid like engineeering nevertheless speaks volumes about the person who has it.. I'll sum it up: 1) you're intelligent.. (can't get one if you're dumb) 2) you're mechanically inclined.."
Yet, like Balt said, being an engineer doesn't mean you have to have mechanical aptitude.
Backshop Having mechanical aptitude and a engineering degree are not the same thing. That was my entire point.
Having mechanical aptitude and a engineering degree are not the same thing.
That was my entire point.
I often found the best air traffic controllers were chess players.
Backshop BaltACD Without mechanical aptitude - a pilot has no understanding of the functions and reactions of all the systems that are involved in keeping commercial airliners in the sky and in the proper location in the sky. I have read too many aircraft accident reports where the pilot(s) didn't understand the 'actions' the plane was telling them was the problem - understanding your machine and what it is telling you is mechanical aptitude. I was replying to him saying you needed an engineering degree to show that you had mechanical aptitude. You were a dispatcher, did you also have an electrical engineering degree? After all, electrical circuits and motors controlled everything you did. I'd bet that fewer than 10% of commercial pilots with degrees have them in engineering.
BaltACD Without mechanical aptitude - a pilot has no understanding of the functions and reactions of all the systems that are involved in keeping commercial airliners in the sky and in the proper location in the sky. I have read too many aircraft accident reports where the pilot(s) didn't understand the 'actions' the plane was telling them was the problem - understanding your machine and what it is telling you is mechanical aptitude.
Without mechanical aptitude - a pilot has no understanding of the functions and reactions of all the systems that are involved in keeping commercial airliners in the sky and in the proper location in the sky.
I have read too many aircraft accident reports where the pilot(s) didn't understand the 'actions' the plane was telling them was the problem - understanding your machine and what it is telling you is mechanical aptitude.
I was replying to him saying you needed an engineering degree to show that you had mechanical aptitude. You were a dispatcher, did you also have an electrical engineering degree? After all, electrical circuits and motors controlled everything you did.
I'd bet that fewer than 10% of commercial pilots with degrees have them in engineering.
When our family lived in Pittsburgh one next door neighbor had a Doctorate in Electrical Engineering and had worked on the Bikini Atoll A-Bomb tests and was then working for Westinghouse - he called my father over one evening to install a light switch in his house - he had all the engineering education to design all kinds of electrical products from the theoretical viewpoint - he lack the mechanical aptitude to actually work with the hardware of those designs.
When I got qualified as a Dispatcher (and possessed a degree in Marketing) the technology in place was Pen, Paper and telephone lines (before I got qualified as a Train Dispatcher I was qualified as a Wire Chief - though that skill wasn't necessary for Dispatching). Timetable, Train Orders, Train Order Operators, Trainsheet and telephone lines - you kept 'the railroad' in your head. All the bells, whistles and computer applications that are Train Dispatching in the 21st Century came later.
Most of the Train Dispatchers I worked with did not have college degrees. In the final years of my employment CSX sought former military air traffic controllers to be trained for being a Train Dispatcher.
It's also why people refer to train operators as locomotive "engineers". Years ago the first people to operate locomotives were in fact engineers in the traditional sense of the term.. i.e. they needed in depth knowledge of how the thing worked to make it run properly. As time passed the technology got better... train operators nolonger required that level of knowledge, but somehow the name locomotive engineer stuck to this day. In other countries they're referred to as locomotive or train drivers/operators.
Aviation developed similarly.. until not so long ago a typical airline crew consisted of a captain, copilot, flight ENGINEER, and navigator. I believe the navigator was the first to go, followed by the flight engineer in the late 80s. Not surprisingly, some if not most airlines, early on, required flight engineers to have degrees in engineering. And guess what.. if one didn't qualify for "flight engineer" they could not advance to captain.
Now.. yes.. back in the day.. no.
As I stated earlier... its how it was justified to me. I'm not for or against having the degree.. makes no difference to me. I'm not a commercial pilot.. I don't have an engineering degree.. yet somehow I too have survived and prospered.
CSSHEGEWISCH Backshop In the US, flight hours required to get hired at an airline are higher than ever, thanks to legislation passed after the Colgan crash. Legislation may have been overkill, but the whole incident and its aftermath does show that experience counts.
Fatique and inadaquate training were identified as the two main contributors that lead to this accident.
Backshop... 2. What's this "mechanical aptitude" you keep talking about? You're flying the plane, not designing or fixing it.
2. What's this "mechanical aptitude" you keep talking about? You're flying the plane, not designing or fixing it.
That's what I said.. most jobs don't require a college degree... see? It's the very first sentence in my post above.
1) no one who isn't qualified to fly should be allowed onto the flightdeck (unless they're servicing the aircraft)
2) being able to build/make stuff..
3) yes it is
4) great.. we've evolved, and people coming up today also nolonger require the degree.
Ulrich The vast majority of jobs don't require a college degree. But having a degree in something solid like engineeering nevertheless speaks volumes about the person who has it.. I'll sum it up: 1) you're intelligent.. (can't get one if you're dumb) 2) you're mechanically inclined.. again.. can't get that degree if you're not. 3) you can overcome obstacles 4) you can commit to something for three or four years and see it through to completion. That piece of paper says all of that in spades. Without it getting in to the better spots is harder.. because you're up against people who have that piece of paper.
The vast majority of jobs don't require a college degree. But having a degree in something solid like engineeering nevertheless speaks volumes about the person who has it.. I'll sum it up: 1) you're intelligent.. (can't get one if you're dumb) 2) you're mechanically inclined.. again.. can't get that degree if you're not. 3) you can overcome obstacles 4) you can commit to something for three or four years and see it through to completion. That piece of paper says all of that in spades. Without it getting in to the better spots is harder.. because you're up against people who have that piece of paper.
Or...
1. There are many engineers who are eggheads who should never set foot in a cockpit.
3. Life is an obstacle.
4. A four year service commitment and flying 1000+ hours during that time--same-same.
He ended up with 23,600 hours, of which 6800 was rotary. That's over 2.6 YEARS of flight time, without killing anyone. Not bad for a HS grad. Even at the end, he still considered himself a chopper pilot first, because it was more challlenging and interesting.
When I figured out how many years it worked out to, his only comment was "well, that would explain the hemorhroids".
Backshop CMStPnP The Army high school to flight school program was very popular and pulled in a lot of very intelligent kids. The Warrant Officer program provided a path to a decent paycheck for an ordinary enlisted guy that did not want to go to college but wanted to be an expert in their field. You could be married and live comfortably on a Warrant Officer paycheck. Exactly. After flying nap-of-the-earth in a Huey, land on interstates in the dark while doing EMS and do pinnacle approaches (look it up) to a Gulf of Mexico oil rig while trying to get the crews off before the hurricane hits, flying for an airline is easy. As far as things being different "back then", my brother started flying in the mid-70s.
CMStPnP The Army high school to flight school program was very popular and pulled in a lot of very intelligent kids. The Warrant Officer program provided a path to a decent paycheck for an ordinary enlisted guy that did not want to go to college but wanted to be an expert in their field. You could be married and live comfortably on a Warrant Officer paycheck.
The Army high school to flight school program was very popular and pulled in a lot of very intelligent kids. The Warrant Officer program provided a path to a decent paycheck for an ordinary enlisted guy that did not want to go to college but wanted to be an expert in their field. You could be married and live comfortably on a Warrant Officer paycheck.
Exactly. After flying nap-of-the-earth in a Huey, land on interstates in the dark while doing EMS and do pinnacle approaches (look it up) to a Gulf of Mexico oil rig while trying to get the crews off before the hurricane hits, flying for an airline is easy. As far as things being different "back then", my brother started flying in the mid-70s.
My flying days go back to the mid 70s as well. Never flew commercially and never had the desire to.. nor could I justify the outlay required to rack up all those hours required. Maybe thousands of hours are nolonger required either.. It's a different ballgame now.. we've evolved!
CMStPnP Backshop What does "high IQ" have to do with "college degree"? You're starting to get insulting here and it's a topic that you clearly are not well versed in. That is absolutely true a lot of the high IQ people do not attend college as they find it boring and beneath them. I ran into a few right in the Army Infantry believe it or not, they enlisted in the Army because they wanted to think about options more and did not want to attend college right after high school. Heck one of the E-4's I worked with had a PhD in Economics but was burned out and left his job. Another had a Masters in Education but was tired of teaching. So agree that College Degree does not always equate to smart nor does high IQ equate to someone that wants College.
Backshop What does "high IQ" have to do with "college degree"? You're starting to get insulting here and it's a topic that you clearly are not well versed in.
What does "high IQ" have to do with "college degree"? You're starting to get insulting here and it's a topic that you clearly are not well versed in.
That is absolutely true a lot of the high IQ people do not attend college as they find it boring and beneath them. I ran into a few right in the Army Infantry believe it or not, they enlisted in the Army because they wanted to think about options more and did not want to attend college right after high school. Heck one of the E-4's I worked with had a PhD in Economics but was burned out and left his job. Another had a Masters in Education but was tired of teaching. So agree that College Degree does not always equate to smart nor does high IQ equate to someone that wants College.
Absolutely.. a college degree doesn't imply intelligence.. however a degree in engineering or physics certainly does... which is why they're coveted among employers.
CMStPnP Backshop The airlines have been talking crisis for while, mainly in the regional ranks. It's mainly the bottom feeders that don't pay well. Delta just lowered their standards to include not needing a 4 year degree, but they have had that in the past. My brother was an ex-Army CWO2 helicopter pilot who got hired by Northwest. He just had a HS diploma but was grandfathered in and ended up a 320 Captain. There are a lot of careers that people want a degree to "differentiate" the candidates or show "perseverance". It's all BS if the degree doesn't pertain to the occupation. All it shows is that the candidate is probably in massive debt. Yes, totally agree. You do not need a college degree to do what I am doing. It is a high trust position for the Federal Government but they require a college degree. However, I am working side by side now with someone that does not have a college degree (go figure). You do not need a college degree for anything IT and I have run into a handful of people that only had High School Degrees that were paid more than me in IT. Because they had the skill set. So I too believe they should make the college degree optional for a lot of white collar positions in the United States. It would be a great way to raise income levels, tax collections and reduce personal debt as well as free up a lot of slots at our Universities for career paths that should have a degree. The Army high school to flight school program was very popular and pulled in a lot of very intelligent kids. The Warrant Officer program provided a path to a decent paycheck for an ordinary enlisted guy that did not want to go to college but wanted to be an expert in their field. You could be married and live comfortably on a Warrant Officer paycheck.
Backshop The airlines have been talking crisis for while, mainly in the regional ranks. It's mainly the bottom feeders that don't pay well. Delta just lowered their standards to include not needing a 4 year degree, but they have had that in the past. My brother was an ex-Army CWO2 helicopter pilot who got hired by Northwest. He just had a HS diploma but was grandfathered in and ended up a 320 Captain. There are a lot of careers that people want a degree to "differentiate" the candidates or show "perseverance". It's all BS if the degree doesn't pertain to the occupation. All it shows is that the candidate is probably in massive debt.
The airlines have been talking crisis for while, mainly in the regional ranks. It's mainly the bottom feeders that don't pay well. Delta just lowered their standards to include not needing a 4 year degree, but they have had that in the past. My brother was an ex-Army CWO2 helicopter pilot who got hired by Northwest. He just had a HS diploma but was grandfathered in and ended up a 320 Captain. There are a lot of careers that people want a degree to "differentiate" the candidates or show "perseverance". It's all BS if the degree doesn't pertain to the occupation. All it shows is that the candidate is probably in massive debt.
Yes, totally agree. You do not need a college degree to do what I am doing. It is a high trust position for the Federal Government but they require a college degree. However, I am working side by side now with someone that does not have a college degree (go figure). You do not need a college degree for anything IT and I have run into a handful of people that only had High School Degrees that were paid more than me in IT. Because they had the skill set. So I too believe they should make the college degree optional for a lot of white collar positions in the United States. It would be a great way to raise income levels, tax collections and reduce personal debt as well as free up a lot of slots at our Universities for career paths that should have a degree.
CMStPnP Ulrich Would be nice to know where that "elsewhere" is.. A massive resignation in one industry would likely result in lots of candidates available in the "elsewhere" industry , and if they're experiencing a surge in applications its been a well kept secret so far. Or maybe people are simply staying home and watching football.. Women are choosing to stay at home and are not returning to the workplace in the numbers they left. Retirees are not seeking a "retired job" as they did before in early retirement choosing instead to live entirely off their nest egg. Further is is exactly like that poster stated. The open positions being created by retirees and women not returning to the workforce has created a vacuum for more people to leave their position and try a new career field.
Ulrich Would be nice to know where that "elsewhere" is.. A massive resignation in one industry would likely result in lots of candidates available in the "elsewhere" industry , and if they're experiencing a surge in applications its been a well kept secret so far. Or maybe people are simply staying home and watching football..
Women are choosing to stay at home and are not returning to the workplace in the numbers they left. Retirees are not seeking a "retired job" as they did before in early retirement choosing instead to live entirely off their nest egg. Further is is exactly like that poster stated. The open positions being created by retirees and women not returning to the workforce has created a vacuum for more people to leave their position and try a new career field.
Sounds like things are pretty good.. people choosing to stay home.. people deciding to retire early with no retirement side hustle required. Something seems to be working well.. and young people coming up have their pick of careers. I can tell you this looks much better than when I entered the workforce in 1980!
UlrichWould be nice to know where that "elsewhere" is.. A massive resignation in one industry would likely result in lots of candidates available in the "elsewhere" industry , and if they're experiencing a surge in applications its been a well kept secret so far. Or maybe people are simply staying home and watching football..
A helicopter is much harder to fly than any fixed wing aircraft.
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