All sectors of the transportation industry seem to be very short staffed.. the airlines are facing a crisis for lack of qualified pilots, and there's discussion about lowering the educational requirements for new hires. And the railroads are recruiting all over the place as well.. no experience required.. "we will train". Trucking.. one would never guess that autonomous trucks are around the corner.. everyone is in desperate need of drivers.. And of course, most of the trades are desperately short staffed as well and have been for quite some time.
What a turn around this has been. When I got started in transportation it was simply a matter of referring to "the list of applicants".. many more applicants than jobs available, even for truck drivers. We had no recruiting departments back then.. Employers could be picky... pilots needed engineering degrees.. drivers needed HS.. railroads needed perfect vision, and some, like B&O had minimum and maximum height requirements even..
Never a better time to be looking for a job..
It is that way everywhere because so many people have resigned. I know someone that went to work at Garmin and one of their perks is intro to pilot training. I can easily get a $30-40 kick up in pay but it would cost me the pension, so not worth it to me. I plan on retiring in 6 years and possibly starting or buying another business on or before that date. Who knows might try my hand at railroading in real life. :)
One item that never ceases to amaze me is the sheer amount of 20-30 year olds that resign just a few months shy of their 5 year vest in pension and leave the almost $20k pension payment with the employer. If they just stuck around a few more months they could have the new job and the $20k payout on top. What a waste of money.
Resigned and retired. The baby boomers are leaving the work force en masse... some earlier than planned due to covid. I applied for railroad work back in the early 80s with no luck.. now I'm pretty much set for life doing something else and too old to hire anyway.. oh well.. maybe in the next life..
The airlines have been talking crisis for while, mainly in the regional ranks. It's mainly the bottom feeders that don't pay well. Delta just lowered their standards to include not needing a 4 year degree, but they have had that in the past. My brother was an ex-Army CWO2 helicopter pilot who got hired by Northwest. He just had a HS diploma but was grandfathered in and ended up a 320 Captain. There are a lot of careers that people want a degree to "differentiate" the candidates or show "perseverance". It's all BS if the degree doesn't pertain to the occupation. All it shows is that the candidate is probably in massive debt.
Hey folks, it is simply capitalism at work. What the companies are willing to pay, in salary, benefits and/or work-life balance, is not matching the customer's interest in "buying". In this case the customer is the potential employee, and (s)he is simply choosing to go elsewhere.
John
cx500 Hey folks, it is simply capitalism at work. What the companies are willing to pay, in salary, benefits and/or work-life balance, is not matching the customer's interest in "buying". In this case the customer is the potential employee, and (s)he is simply choosing to go elsewhere. John
Would be nice to know where that "elsewhere" is.. A massive resignation in one industry would likely result in lots of candidates available in the "elsewhere" industry , and if they're experiencing a surge in applications its been a well kept secret so far. Or maybe people are simply staying home and watching football..
Backshop The airlines have been talking crisis for while, mainly in the regional ranks. It's mainly the bottom feeders that don't pay well. Delta just lowered their standards to include not needing a 4 year degree, but they have had that in the past. My brother was an ex-Army CWO2 helicopter pilot who got hired by Northwest. He just had a HS diploma but was grandfathered in and ended up a 320 Captain. There are a lot of careers that people want a degree to "differentiate" the candidates or show "perseverance". It's all BS if the degree doesn't pertain to the occupation. All it shows is that the candidate is probably in massive debt.
I asked an Air Canada guy about their education requirements way back in the 70s.. He told me that with an engineering degree in hand they know right out of the gate that you can't be stupid.. and that's true.. I know many engineers and all of them have their flaws like we all do.. but none are stupid.. Perhaps that's why they had that stipulation.. smart and mechanically inclined...
Which says nothing about their ability to fly an airplane. They're flying it, not designing it. Many EU airlines don't require a degree, either. They send their candidates to flying school.
Here's how British Airways does it...
Learn How To Fly - British Airways announces Cadet Pilot Programme (tobeapilot.co.uk)
Backshop Which says nothing about their ability to fly an airplane. They're flying it, not designing it. Many EU airlines don't require a degree, either. They send their candidates to flying school. Here's how British Airways does it... Learn How To Fly - British Airways announces Cadet Pilot Programme (tobeapilot.co.uk)
True, and over the decades the world has come around to that way of thinking. But back then, when computers were in their infancy, and a pilot really had to understand not only how to fly the plane but how it and its various systems actually worked, being close to clever enough to design one seemed reasonable. Things are much different today of course.. planes are easier to fly, the instruments are layed out better.. backup systems and everything else is so much better in every way.. a high IQ is nolonger really required to fly today.
What does "high IQ" have to do with "college degree"? You're starting to get insulting here and it's a topic that you clearly are not well versed in.
Backshop What does "high IQ" have to do with "college degree"? You're starting to get insulting here and it's a topic that you clearly are not well versed in.
Didn't say anything about a college degree.. I specified engineering degree.. I'm simply stating what I was told as the reasoning for such requirements at one time. The airlines were looking for intelligent people with a mechanical aptitude.. candidates who had an engineering degree clearly have both.. sure... lots of other people do as well.. but having the degree demonstrates it. As I stated above, the world has evolved.. such are nolonger the requirements..
A helicopter is much harder to fly than any fixed wing aircraft.
Yes, totally agree. You do not need a college degree to do what I am doing. It is a high trust position for the Federal Government but they require a college degree. However, I am working side by side now with someone that does not have a college degree (go figure). You do not need a college degree for anything IT and I have run into a handful of people that only had High School Degrees that were paid more than me in IT. Because they had the skill set. So I too believe they should make the college degree optional for a lot of white collar positions in the United States. It would be a great way to raise income levels, tax collections and reduce personal debt as well as free up a lot of slots at our Universities for career paths that should have a degree.
The Army high school to flight school program was very popular and pulled in a lot of very intelligent kids. The Warrant Officer program provided a path to a decent paycheck for an ordinary enlisted guy that did not want to go to college but wanted to be an expert in their field. You could be married and live comfortably on a Warrant Officer paycheck.
UlrichWould be nice to know where that "elsewhere" is.. A massive resignation in one industry would likely result in lots of candidates available in the "elsewhere" industry , and if they're experiencing a surge in applications its been a well kept secret so far. Or maybe people are simply staying home and watching football..
Women are choosing to stay at home and are not returning to the workplace in the numbers they left. Retirees are not seeking a "retired job" as they did before in early retirement choosing instead to live entirely off their nest egg. Further is is exactly like that poster stated. The open positions being created by retirees and women not returning to the workforce has created a vacuum for more people to leave their position and try a new career field.
CMStPnP Ulrich Would be nice to know where that "elsewhere" is.. A massive resignation in one industry would likely result in lots of candidates available in the "elsewhere" industry , and if they're experiencing a surge in applications its been a well kept secret so far. Or maybe people are simply staying home and watching football.. Women are choosing to stay at home and are not returning to the workplace in the numbers they left. Retirees are not seeking a "retired job" as they did before in early retirement choosing instead to live entirely off their nest egg. Further is is exactly like that poster stated. The open positions being created by retirees and women not returning to the workforce has created a vacuum for more people to leave their position and try a new career field.
Ulrich Would be nice to know where that "elsewhere" is.. A massive resignation in one industry would likely result in lots of candidates available in the "elsewhere" industry , and if they're experiencing a surge in applications its been a well kept secret so far. Or maybe people are simply staying home and watching football..
Sounds like things are pretty good.. people choosing to stay home.. people deciding to retire early with no retirement side hustle required. Something seems to be working well.. and young people coming up have their pick of careers. I can tell you this looks much better than when I entered the workforce in 1980!
That is absolutely true a lot of the high IQ people do not attend college as they find it boring and beneath them. I ran into a few right in the Army Infantry believe it or not, they enlisted in the Army because they wanted to think about options more and did not want to attend college right after high school. Heck one of the E-4's I worked with had a PhD in Economics but was burned out and left his job. Another had a Masters in Education but was tired of teaching. So agree that College Degree does not always equate to smart nor does high IQ equate to someone that wants College.
CMStPnP Backshop The airlines have been talking crisis for while, mainly in the regional ranks. It's mainly the bottom feeders that don't pay well. Delta just lowered their standards to include not needing a 4 year degree, but they have had that in the past. My brother was an ex-Army CWO2 helicopter pilot who got hired by Northwest. He just had a HS diploma but was grandfathered in and ended up a 320 Captain. There are a lot of careers that people want a degree to "differentiate" the candidates or show "perseverance". It's all BS if the degree doesn't pertain to the occupation. All it shows is that the candidate is probably in massive debt. Yes, totally agree. You do not need a college degree to do what I am doing. It is a high trust position for the Federal Government but they require a college degree. However, I am working side by side now with someone that does not have a college degree (go figure). You do not need a college degree for anything IT and I have run into a handful of people that only had High School Degrees that were paid more than me in IT. Because they had the skill set. So I too believe they should make the college degree optional for a lot of white collar positions in the United States. It would be a great way to raise income levels, tax collections and reduce personal debt as well as free up a lot of slots at our Universities for career paths that should have a degree. The Army high school to flight school program was very popular and pulled in a lot of very intelligent kids. The Warrant Officer program provided a path to a decent paycheck for an ordinary enlisted guy that did not want to go to college but wanted to be an expert in their field. You could be married and live comfortably on a Warrant Officer paycheck.
The vast majority of jobs don't require a college degree. But having a degree in something solid like engineeering nevertheless speaks volumes about the person who has it.. I'll sum it up: 1) you're intelligent.. (can't get one if you're dumb) 2) you're mechanically inclined.. again.. can't get that degree if you're not. 3) you can overcome obstacles 4) you can commit to something for three or four years and see it through to completion. That piece of paper says all of that in spades. Without it getting in to the better spots is harder.. because you're up against people who have that piece of paper.
CMStPnP The Army high school to flight school program was very popular and pulled in a lot of very intelligent kids. The Warrant Officer program provided a path to a decent paycheck for an ordinary enlisted guy that did not want to go to college but wanted to be an expert in their field. You could be married and live comfortably on a Warrant Officer paycheck.
CMStPnP Backshop What does "high IQ" have to do with "college degree"? You're starting to get insulting here and it's a topic that you clearly are not well versed in. That is absolutely true a lot of the high IQ people do not attend college as they find it boring and beneath them. I ran into a few right in the Army Infantry believe it or not, they enlisted in the Army because they wanted to think about options more and did not want to attend college right after high school. Heck one of the E-4's I worked with had a PhD in Economics but was burned out and left his job. Another had a Masters in Education but was tired of teaching. So agree that College Degree does not always equate to smart nor does high IQ equate to someone that wants College.
Absolutely.. a college degree doesn't imply intelligence.. however a degree in engineering or physics certainly does... which is why they're coveted among employers.
Backshop CMStPnP The Army high school to flight school program was very popular and pulled in a lot of very intelligent kids. The Warrant Officer program provided a path to a decent paycheck for an ordinary enlisted guy that did not want to go to college but wanted to be an expert in their field. You could be married and live comfortably on a Warrant Officer paycheck. Exactly. After flying nap-of-the-earth in a Huey, land on interstates in the dark while doing EMS and do pinnacle approaches (look it up) to a Gulf of Mexico oil rig while trying to get the crews off before the hurricane hits, flying for an airline is easy. As far as things being different "back then", my brother started flying in the mid-70s.
Exactly. After flying nap-of-the-earth in a Huey, land on interstates in the dark while doing EMS and do pinnacle approaches (look it up) to a Gulf of Mexico oil rig while trying to get the crews off before the hurricane hits, flying for an airline is easy. As far as things being different "back then", my brother started flying in the mid-70s.
My flying days go back to the mid 70s as well. Never flew commercially and never had the desire to.. nor could I justify the outlay required to rack up all those hours required. Maybe thousands of hours are nolonger required either.. It's a different ballgame now.. we've evolved!
Ulrich The vast majority of jobs don't require a college degree. But having a degree in something solid like engineeering nevertheless speaks volumes about the person who has it.. I'll sum it up: 1) you're intelligent.. (can't get one if you're dumb) 2) you're mechanically inclined.. again.. can't get that degree if you're not. 3) you can overcome obstacles 4) you can commit to something for three or four years and see it through to completion. That piece of paper says all of that in spades. Without it getting in to the better spots is harder.. because you're up against people who have that piece of paper.
Or...
1. There are many engineers who are eggheads who should never set foot in a cockpit.
2. What's this "mechanical aptitude" you keep talking about? You're flying the plane, not designing or fixing it.
3. Life is an obstacle.
4. A four year service commitment and flying 1000+ hours during that time--same-same.
He ended up with 23,600 hours, of which 6800 was rotary. That's over 2.6 YEARS of flight time, without killing anyone. Not bad for a HS grad. Even at the end, he still considered himself a chopper pilot first, because it was more challlenging and interesting.
When I figured out how many years it worked out to, his only comment was "well, that would explain the hemorhroids".
In the US, flight hours required to get hired at an airline are higher than ever, thanks to legislation passed after the Colgan crash.
That's what I said.. most jobs don't require a college degree... see? It's the very first sentence in my post above.
1) no one who isn't qualified to fly should be allowed onto the flightdeck (unless they're servicing the aircraft)
2) being able to build/make stuff..
3) yes it is
4) great.. we've evolved, and people coming up today also nolonger require the degree.
Backshop In the US, flight hours required to get hired at an airline are higher than ever, thanks to legislation passed after the Colgan crash.
Backshop... 2. What's this "mechanical aptitude" you keep talking about? You're flying the plane, not designing or fixing it.
Without mechanical aptitude - a pilot has no understanding of the functions and reactions of all the systems that are involved in keeping commercial airliners in the sky and in the proper location in the sky.
I have read too many aircraft accident reports where the pilot(s) didn't understand the 'actions' the plane was telling them was the problem - understanding your machine and what it is telling you is mechanical aptitude.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
CSSHEGEWISCH Backshop In the US, flight hours required to get hired at an airline are higher than ever, thanks to legislation passed after the Colgan crash. Legislation may have been overkill, but the whole incident and its aftermath does show that experience counts.
Fatique and inadaquate training were identified as the two main contributors that lead to this accident.
BaltACD Without mechanical aptitude - a pilot has no understanding of the functions and reactions of all the systems that are involved in keeping commercial airliners in the sky and in the proper location in the sky. I have read too many aircraft accident reports where the pilot(s) didn't understand the 'actions' the plane was telling them was the problem - understanding your machine and what it is telling you is mechanical aptitude.
I'd bet that fewer than 10% of commercial pilots with degrees have them in engineering.
Backshop BaltACD Without mechanical aptitude - a pilot has no understanding of the functions and reactions of all the systems that are involved in keeping commercial airliners in the sky and in the proper location in the sky. I have read too many aircraft accident reports where the pilot(s) didn't understand the 'actions' the plane was telling them was the problem - understanding your machine and what it is telling you is mechanical aptitude. I was replying to him saying you needed an engineering degree to show that you had mechanical aptitude. You were a dispatcher, did you also have an electrical engineering degree? After all, electrical circuits and motors controlled everything you did. I'd bet that fewer than 10% of commercial pilots with degrees have them in engineering.
I was replying to him saying you needed an engineering degree to show that you had mechanical aptitude. You were a dispatcher, did you also have an electrical engineering degree? After all, electrical circuits and motors controlled everything you did.
Now.. yes.. back in the day.. no.
As I stated earlier... its how it was justified to me. I'm not for or against having the degree.. makes no difference to me. I'm not a commercial pilot.. I don't have an engineering degree.. yet somehow I too have survived and prospered.
It's also why people refer to train operators as locomotive "engineers". Years ago the first people to operate locomotives were in fact engineers in the traditional sense of the term.. i.e. they needed in depth knowledge of how the thing worked to make it run properly. As time passed the technology got better... train operators nolonger required that level of knowledge, but somehow the name locomotive engineer stuck to this day. In other countries they're referred to as locomotive or train drivers/operators.
Aviation developed similarly.. until not so long ago a typical airline crew consisted of a captain, copilot, flight ENGINEER, and navigator. I believe the navigator was the first to go, followed by the flight engineer in the late 80s. Not surprisingly, some if not most airlines, early on, required flight engineers to have degrees in engineering. And guess what.. if one didn't qualify for "flight engineer" they could not advance to captain.
Having mechanical aptitude and a engineering degree are not the same thing.
When our family lived in Pittsburgh one next door neighbor had a Doctorate in Electrical Engineering and had worked on the Bikini Atoll A-Bomb tests and was then working for Westinghouse - he called my father over one evening to install a light switch in his house - he had all the engineering education to design all kinds of electrical products from the theoretical viewpoint - he lack the mechanical aptitude to actually work with the hardware of those designs.
When I got qualified as a Dispatcher (and possessed a degree in Marketing) the technology in place was Pen, Paper and telephone lines (before I got qualified as a Train Dispatcher I was qualified as a Wire Chief - though that skill wasn't necessary for Dispatching). Timetable, Train Orders, Train Order Operators, Trainsheet and telephone lines - you kept 'the railroad' in your head. All the bells, whistles and computer applications that are Train Dispatching in the 21st Century came later.
Most of the Train Dispatchers I worked with did not have college degrees. In the final years of my employment CSX sought former military air traffic controllers to be trained for being a Train Dispatcher.
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