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Autonomous Truck Success

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Autonomous Truck Success
Posted by greyhounds on Wednesday, December 29, 2021 11:38 PM

Well, at least it was a rail intermodal load.  But it's something that's going to have to be dealt with.

https://apnews.com/article/technology-business-arizona-department-of-transportation-arizona-tucson-2a53f9728635c13f38c7e3c4223700ba

 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Thursday, December 30, 2021 7:10 AM

Let's put people out of work and endanger the public!!! Yippee!!

Still in training.


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Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, December 30, 2021 7:31 AM

From the article:

A lead vehicle scouted the route for unexpected obstacles about five miles ahead of the autonomous semi, and a trailing vehicle following about one-half mile behind the truck was prepared to intervene if necessary, along with several unmarked police vehicles.

I realize the Wright Brothers only flew about 120 feet the first time, but it seems like it's going to be a really long time before driverless trucks make a big impact in the market.

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Posted by Euclid on Thursday, December 30, 2021 7:59 AM
From the article:
 
TuSimple said the semi successfully navigated highway lane changes, traffic signals, on-ramps and off-ramps while “naturally interacting with other motorists.”
 
Were the other motorists informed that they were sharing the road with a fully autonomous semi-truck during this this obviously risky test?  This detail needs to be explained. 
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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, December 30, 2021 9:27 AM

And the Wright brothers did not have an automobile tailing an inflated balloon clearing a path before them.  And Robert Fulton did not hsve as sailboat clearing a path before him.  Ditto Stephenson's Rocket.

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Thursday, December 30, 2021 9:40 AM

greyhounds

Well, at least it was a rail intermodal load.  But it's something that's going to have to be dealt with.

https://apnews.com/article/technology-business-arizona-department-of-transportation-arizona-tucson-2a53f9728635c13f38c7e3c4223700ba

 

 

 

It will be awhile before autonomous class 8 CMV's hit the road in regular service. However autonomous drayage is where the C1's need to look if they don't plan on investing in more IM ramps. Conversely it can be true as well to be the driver for more IM ramps.

Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Posted by NittanyLion on Thursday, December 30, 2021 10:16 AM

Euclid
From the article:
 
TuSimple said the semi successfully navigated highway lane changes, traffic signals, on-ramps and off-ramps while “naturally interacting with other motorists.”
 
Were the other motorists informed that they were sharing the road with a fully autonomous semi-truck during this this obviously risky test?  This detail needs to be explained. 
 

An automonous vehicle in any failure mode is no more or less dangerous than a piloted vehicle in the same failure mode (or, frankly, under direct control of an operator).

I'd rather have a misbehaving AV nearby, where the default behavior to a problem is "stop," than a misbehaving driver where there is no default behavior and possess the bonus ability to panic.

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Posted by Backshop on Thursday, December 30, 2021 10:52 AM

SD60MAC9500

 

 
greyhounds

Well, at least it was a rail intermodal load.  But it's something that's going to have to be dealt with.

https://apnews.com/article/technology-business-arizona-department-of-transportation-arizona-tucson-2a53f9728635c13f38c7e3c4223700ba

 

 

 

 

 

It will be awhile before autonomous class 8 CMV's hit the road in regular service. However autonomous drayage is where the C1's need to look if they don't plan on investing in more IM ramps. Conversely it can be true as well to be the driver for more IM ramps.

 

Conversely, drayage is the worst paying part of trucking, so investing in new equipment with all the computers, plus automated transmissions, isn't going to happen anytime soon.

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Posted by Euclid on Thursday, December 30, 2021 12:00 PM

NittanyLion

 

 
Euclid
From the article:
 
TuSimple said the semi successfully navigated highway lane changes, traffic signals, on-ramps and off-ramps while “naturally interacting with other motorists.”
 
Were the other motorists informed that they were sharing the road with a fully autonomous semi-truck during this this obviously risky test?  This detail needs to be explained. 
 

 

 

An automonous vehicle in any failure mode is no more or less dangerous than a piloted vehicle in the same failure mode (or, frankly, under direct control of an operator).

I'd rather have a misbehaving AV nearby, where the default behavior to a problem is "stop," than a misbehaving driver where there is no default behavior and possess the bonus ability to panic.

 

Well what occurred in this test happens to be your preferred choice, so that is good for you.  But what about the people who would rather take their chances driving among human drivers than among driverless, automatic vehicles?  Don’t they get a choice? 
 
Regarding your second point:  The benefit of the AV default to stop after it begins experiencing a problem depends on how quickly the system can react to the problem, and how quickly the problem might result in injury or death.   I would much rather drive with human drivers who do not have default responses, but rather continuously rely on their best judgement. 
 
But in any case, my point is that human drivers should not be included in such an experiment as described in the article unless AVs are fully approved for road use.  Are they approved at this time in Arizona?  My point also depends on what actually took place in this experiment.  The article may be in error.  The other vehicles with drivers may have been professionals picked for the experiment with them having full knowledge of it.  Or the police may have been escorting the AV without letting other drivers pass it or drive near it.  But if they were driving near it with no knowledge of it, I would sure like to hear what they think about that once they learn what they had participated in.  
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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Thursday, December 30, 2021 9:27 PM

I won't be losing any sleep on this thinking my job is in jeopardy for a while.  How good is this AI about when the unexpected happens in traffic.  Let alone the first time it happens to get involved in a crash.  

 

Worst case here with how well Tesla cars tend to confuse a trailer with the sky it seems.  Just imagine the mess that would be a Tesla on autopilot driver not paying attention ramming into this thing.  The lawyers would have a field day on that one.  

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Posted by Ulrich on Thursday, December 30, 2021 9:51 PM

People tend to confuse autonomous with driverless...the two are not the same. Vehicles will likely become more autonomous with each passing year, but it will be quite a while I think before we see driverless vehicles   on any large scale, apart perhaps from simple closed loop applications like an open pit mine. The driving job will continue to evolve..today's drivers nolonger need to be able to row a 13 speed gearbox..instead they need computer skills that were unheard of 20 years ago. Likely drivers in 20 years from now will require other skills that we aren't yet aware of. 

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Posted by Euclid on Friday, December 31, 2021 8:55 AM

Ulrich
People tend to confuse autonomous with driverless...the two are not the same.

Can you please define those terms?  I thought the term Autonomous means nobody driving and nobody onboard for backup.  So the vehicle is completely self-driving according to a designated route, and vehicle senses and properly responds to everything of any significance within the field of the route way.  
 
I do know that there is significant difference between Tesla's term Autopilot, and their term Autonomous, which Elon says is fully self-driving.  Autopilot does allow drivers to take a nap while cruising down a freeway, although it is strictly forbidden and is considered to be unsafe due to some limitations. 
 
Nevertheless, it appears that drivers have so much admiration for their Tesla vehicles that they rationalize that they are fully capable of driving on their own, just as the basic marketing promises at some point in the future.  I conclude that the Tesla term Autopilot is dangerously misleading.
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Posted by Backshop on Friday, December 31, 2021 9:34 AM

Many trucking companies have trouble getting drivers now, due to low pay.  It'll be even harder to get autonomous "babysitters" since you'll still be away from home, but the pay will be even lower.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, December 31, 2021 10:28 AM

Backshop

Many trucking companies have trouble getting drivers now, due to low pay.  It'll be even harder to get autonomous "babysitters" since you'll still be away from home, but the pay will be even lower.

 

But the standards can be set lower. You wouldn't need a CDL, just a pulse. Always away from home? Hire the homeless. It will be that much easier to find a scapegoat when something goes wrong. Mischief

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Posted by Euclid on Saturday, January 1, 2022 10:55 AM

In my opinion, the idea of having a human attendant onboard to take over if something goes wrong with the autonomous system is an admission that the autonomous system is not safe.  

Beyond that, the human attendant is not a reliable solution to close the safety gap.  It is unrealistic to think that a human attendant, riding only to watch over the magnificent and competent automatic driving system, will be ready or willing to take action to override the system if trouble with it should arise. 

Instead, such attendants are likely to hesitate and freeze with indecision.   The will worry that their override may be a mistake on their part because they will not expect that any reason for an override will occur.  That is, after all, the marketing theme of the autonomous driving system.

Here is an excellent article that fully explains all of the designations of features such as fully autonomous, self-driving, auto pilot, etc.

 
Quote from the article.  No wonder purchasers of these vehicles are confused about the capabilities of them:
 
“Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability are intended for use with a fully attentive driver, who has their hands on the wheel and is prepared to take over at any moment.” 
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Posted by Convicted One on Saturday, January 1, 2022 12:31 PM

With autonomous vehicles, how are traffic infractions to be handled?  Will the cops have a way to summons control of the console?

Perhaps my biggest gripe about trucking the way it always has been, is on highways without controlled access,  the snail slow starts by the trucks at traffic signals coupled with their propensity to drive 10 mph above the speed limit, in between stops......so, once you get ahead of them, they end up creeping around you again by breaking the speed limit...and then there they are in front of you again at the very  next traffic light.

If fully autonomous trucking will eliminate the  "speeding past you, once again" aspect of trucks in traffic, then I am all for it.   Captain

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Posted by York1 on Saturday, January 1, 2022 1:20 PM

I've wondered how these vehicles handle certain situations that are uncommon.

How about an accident that clogs an Interstate at night, and a state patrolman directs traffic into one or two lanes with his flashlight?

More common -- Interstate traffic having to merge into one lane for construction, but dealing with drivers who don't merge until the last second?

I can think of quite a few situations that I wonder how the computer handles things.  Maybe they've already programmed all the possibilities, and there would be no problems.

York1 John       

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, January 1, 2022 3:01 PM

York1
How about an accident that clogs an Interstate at night, and a state patrolman directs traffic into one or two lanes with his flashlight?

Or when we close a two-lane state highway completely as the result of an accident.  If we close just one lane, we will be letting one direction through at a time.  Normal drivers can make out who's directing the traffic (might be a firefighter with a flag) and follow those directions.  

Will autonomous trucks be able to do the same?

Sometimes we send folks on a detour if the road will be closed for a while.  If there's no one in the cab, who do we give directions to?  Maybe there is a human - will they be able to reprogram the GPS with the new instructions?

 

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, January 1, 2022 3:04 PM

There is a sort of unpleasant truth about large trucks: the best mileage is achieved by coming to a comparative crawl upgrade, then freewheeling to un governed high speed downhill.  Needless to say, this is infuriating to drivers of four-wheelers on cruise control.

i can't imagine any jurisdiction authorizing this for autonomous trucking, which could easily and fairly have overspeed enforced to only a couple of true mph over the posted limit, and even that little only for a nominal sustained time only a few seconds long.  As points for CDL enforcement are no longer in play, expect gleeful local enforcement efforts with substantial "incentive" fees and charges.

Likewise, on the issue of 'truck no-passing zones' very strict time limits to complete a pass can be more easily enforced if autonomous truck-to-truck communication enforces slowdown of the vehicle being overtaken, which for regen electric transmission poses far less difficulty than effective predictive downshifting (itself trivial on a well-controlled vehicle).

We can presume the existence of beacons and warnings for accidents in most conditions, including special signals or gestures for emergency guidance or means of marking or designating an emergency or ad hoc route for the vehicle to follow.  A fun exercise is to implement this without creating a nifty back door or hack opportunity to hijack or wreck a truck... or use it to take out a crowd for perceived political revenge...

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Posted by Convicted One on Saturday, January 1, 2022 3:10 PM

Overmod
i can't imagine any jurisdiction authorizing this for autonomous trucking, which could easily and fairly have overspeed enforced to only a couple of true mph over the posted limit, and even that little only for a nominal sustained time only a few seconds long.  As points for CDL enforcement are no longer in play, expect gleeful local enforcement efforts with substantial "incentive" fees and charges.

Well, you'd just have to assume that the decision to break the law  was being made centrally. No longer would the carriers have the freedom to hide behind the excuse that renegade employees have decided to speed on their own will.

Enforcement will have to target responsible decision makers.

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, January 1, 2022 3:22 PM

Convicted One
Well, you'd just have to assume that the decision to break the law  was being made centrally.

Sensor issues notwithstanding, central control would likely mean that all of the autonomous trucks on the road (less those accelerating or slowing down) will be running the speed limit for that road, whatever it is.

As one who normally runs with "flow of traffic," I fear the day when even personal vehicles can be monitored remotely.  I've already heard talk of toll roads (many of which now use transponders for tolls) using your times through the "toll gates" for speed enforcement.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, January 1, 2022 4:00 PM

The New Jersey Turnpike attempted to 'automate' this at one point by (rather cleverly, I'm sure they thought) noting the time stamps for entry and exit and the nominal distance between and automatically having a ticket issued for the calculated 'overage'.  I luckily never got one during the mercifully brief time it was active, but it caused an enormous outcry.  My understanding was that it was overturned on a civil-rights ground related to the Fifth Amendment right about self-incrimination, as you had to present the ticket you received or pay the highest possible toll if you 'lost' it... and, you know, you'd have nothing to fear if you were law-abiding, etc.  I have since read that the 'Constitutional' ground was the right to face and question one's accuser... difficult if it is a computer routine Laugh

 If I recall correctly, the New York State Thruway tried this for a while, too; apparently at least one toll road in Florida still does it.

I believe a similar argument has applied regarding comparison of scanned license plates or transponder numbers in current tolling; it would certainly be a precedent.

Interestingly, the EZ-Pass system tracked if you sped through the converted toll lanes (45 or over) and 'enforcement' was cancellation of your privileges if you did it too often.  And I believe there is a bill pending to use automatic ticketing for active construction-zone violations...

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Posted by greyhounds on Saturday, January 1, 2022 5:25 PM

What I'd really like to see is one of these set up for autonomous operation on the rail.

https://player.vimeo.com/video/75325768

Think of what you could do with it!  

Imagine a sawmill 75 or so miles out on a low-density branch.  Serve it with an autonomous Brandt pulling center beams, boxcars, and curtain side containers on flatcars.  Just punch “Go”, and it delivers the empty equipment to the mill. 
 
The mill loads the rail equipment and turns the Brandt around.  Then they punch “Go Back”.  It will reduce the cost of rail movement and open new markets for rail service.
 
It would beat a tri-weekly local in terms of cost and service.  There are many other types of opportunities like this.
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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, January 1, 2022 5:34 PM

You'll assuredly see something like Brandt Units in comparable use.

The problem is that many of the designs have limited speed capability in rail mode, both in the suspension and in the drive.  This is not 'that' much of a drawback in present practice, but to be competitive with autonomous trucks I expect that both rapid mode changing and higher running speed would become significant in at least some respects.

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Saturday, January 1, 2022 5:57 PM

The first place you may see automated trucks in regular service is more than likely going to be in yard service.  Why there the trucks can be told go get this trailer and then put it in this door or remove this trailer and put it in a empty space for the next driver to get it.  

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Saturday, January 1, 2022 6:03 PM

Shadow the Cats owner

The first place you may see automated trucks in regular service is more than likely going to be in yard service.  Why there the trucks can be told go get this trailer and then put it in this door or remove this trailer and put it in a empty space for the next driver to get it.  

 

Already happening. UPS is currently using autonoumous yard dogs in a few terminals in England. 

Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, January 1, 2022 6:08 PM

Overmod
The problem is that many of the designs have limited speed capability in rail mode, both in the suspension and in the drive.  

Given that some of those little used branch lines are already speed limited, the restrictions that may come with the vehicle could be of little consequence.

That said, being able to run a daily (or better) shuttle service, vs twice or so weekly service from the railroad would certainly be something some businesses could take advantage of.

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Posted by greyhounds on Saturday, January 1, 2022 10:24 PM

Brandt says it can make 40 MPH on the rail. 

Unless you're on a high speed, high density main line; "That'll Do." 

Tractive effort with a 600 HP truck engine is 50,000 pounds.

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Saturday, January 1, 2022 11:46 PM

Ouch, I don't want to sound like a luddite or the die hard steam fans who declared railfanning dead when diesels took over or that I'm crying in my beer over the "good ole days" but....Almost totally divorced from humanity, this sounds about as interesting as watching a conveyor belt. How many "conveyor belt fans" are out there? (I guess we're about to learn). How many railfans journeyed to see Muskingum Electric or Navajo Mine Railroad?

 

 

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Posted by Backshop on Sunday, January 2, 2022 9:42 AM

I saw the Muskingum but I just happened to be in the area.  My mother was from the area so I stopped by on the way back to Detroit from Pittsburgh.  But I'm not a conveyor belt fan, or a streetcar/interurban one, either.

PS-Who's going to hook up the air hoses, etc.  I know the answer.  It's always the same.  Some poor, underpaid *** who should be happy that he has a job.

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