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Worst Herald?

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Posted by CMStPnP on Thursday, December 16, 2021 10:11 AM

Gramp
The city of Berlin, WI changed the syllable to be emphasized in its name because of the wars with Germany from berLIN to BERlin. It's been BERlin ever since. 

I think in German phonetically it is close to sounding like Bear-Lynn.   In Wisconsin, if memory serves me correctly that same name is pronounces Burr-Lynn.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, December 15, 2021 11:40 AM

54light15

That Mo-Pac logo would like fine on the vertical stabiliser of an airplane. 

 

Doesn't it?  It reminds me a lot of the old Piedmont Airlines tail markings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piedmont_Airlines_(1948%E2%80%931989)

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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, December 15, 2021 8:01 AM

SALfan1
The Pope County, AR (Russellville) courthouse was built in the 1930's as a WPA project. .

 

I guess I was wrong, the masonry swastikas in Birmingham are hand carved, not cast in cement. I won't jump on the band wagon and post images that I do not hold the rights to, but pictures are availavble here:

https://www.al.com/strange-alabama/2012/05/swastikas_on_the_jeffco_courth.html

There used  to be an abundance of F.W. & Wabash Valley Traction Company imagery showing their herald, on-line for one to see, but it's harder to come by now.

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 9:59 PM

The UP herald is my favorite.

Still in training.


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Posted by SALfan1 on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 9:25 PM

Convicted One

 

 
ELRobby
I have seen a reference that a railroad called the St. Louis, Rocky Mountain & Pacific (a Santa Fe predecessor) also used it, but I can't confirm that.  I have seen pictures of the CA&S locomotive with the swastika on the tender (as I recall, in Sulzer's Ghost Railroads of Indiana).

 

The Ft Wayne & Wabash Valley Traction Company started using a swastika as it's emblem in 1909  pictured here roughly at mid point of the car

https://www.flickr.com/photos/shookphotos/8314193900

 

Also, just for scale and scope, I recall the pre WWII courthouse in downtown Birmingham Alabama had swastikas cast in cement on either side of it's main entry.  Still in place the last time I was there in 1990.    Every 10-15 years some new comer would come to work for the local news paper and have a fit upon seeing them, try to launch a crusade. 

 

 

The Pope County, AR (Russellville) courthouse was built in the 1930's as a WPA project. Don't know if the material is stone or concrete (probably concrete), but it contains some stylized eagles that would be right at home in Nazi Germany (very similar to some I've seen in pictures of those days).

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 6:51 PM

54light15
There was a car called the "Krit" from about 1912, made by a man named Krittenden. It's radiator badge was a swastika. 

Some of those cars are still around and can be seen at antique car shows.  The owner/exhibitors typically cover up the swastika radiator caps.  They don't feel like explaining it constantly. I can understand.

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Posted by 54light15 on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 6:16 PM

That Mo-Pac logo would like fine on the vertical stabiliser of an airplane. 

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Posted by York1 on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 4:27 PM

CatFoodFlambe
I don't care for the current Amtrak logo - even the Pointless Arrow was better.    

But the old Bangor & Aroostock logo (the Blue Shield with an complete short story in multiple fonts) takes the cake, IMO.

 

I'll agree with that!  That is a bad one.

 

 

I'm not sure why, and I know that some people may like it, but for some reason, I really don't like this one.  The color?  The design?  I don't know, but I really don't want any cars with this logo on my layout:

 

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Posted by CatFoodFlambe on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 4:13 PM

I don't care for the current Amtrak logo - even the Pointless Arrow was better.    

But the old Bangor & Aroostock logo (the Blue Shield with an complete short story in multiple fonts) takes the cake, IMO.

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Posted by 54light15 on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 4:07 PM

In Northern Ontario is a town called Swastika. You can find it on a map. The town fathers were under pressure to change the name so they put billboards up at the train station-(still served by the ONR but freight only) that read- "The hell with Hitler, we had the name before he did." 

In the old CPR station on Yonge St in Summerhill which is now a liquor store, there is a swastika motif in the edges of the canopies outdoors. They all kind of intermesh with one another but there they are. There is also a bank on Queen St West that has the same kind of interwoven swastikas but on the outside of the building itself. 

I just watched the Buster Keaton film, "Go West" and in several scenes where he is involve with an indian tribe, he wraps himself in a blanket with swastikas on it. 

I inspected the boiler in an old Pontiac dealer in Port Jervis, New York many years ago and cast into the front of it was a swastika. Burnham was the make of the boiler and they are still in business. 

There was a car called the "Krit" from about 1912, made by a man named Krittenden. It's radiator badge was a swastika. 

My point is, swastikas were fairly common before you-know-who. 

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Posted by York1 on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 3:55 PM

Since the topic has also begun to include favorites ...

When I was a kid, my great uncle worked in the Northern Pacific shops in Tacoma, WA.  He sent us calendars, pictures, etc., all with the Yin Yang design.  That's when it became my favorite.

Today, it doesn't seem like anything I would like, but back then, I loved seeing a train come by that had a boxcar with the NP logo.

 

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Posted by NKP guy on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 3:50 PM

azrail
Actually the NKP lettering on the loco tender is called a "logotype", like the flying "Rio Grande" logo (est 1941)

   Exactly so.  I happily stand corrected.

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 3:43 PM

azrail

Actually the NKP lettering on the loco tender is called a "logotype", like the flying "Rio Grande" logo (est 1941)

Just like the New York Central's use of the font "Grand Central."  Not sure if that's what they called it, but if you want to find it, that's the name to look it up with.  I bought it and have it available on my computers.

Many railroads kept it simple, with a mostly generic Roman or Sans font.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 3:18 PM

Flintlock76

 

 
charlie hebdo
some Luftstreitkräfte aircraft used it during the war.

 

Right, there was a German ace, a member of the Red Baron's "Flying Circus" who's name escapes me at the moment who used it as a personal marking.  This was before the Freikorps was established and certainly before the Nazis.

"Swastika" comes from the Sanskrit, translated it means "good luck," and it was used by quite a few people as a good luck symbol. I'd assume that's why that German pilot put it on his plane.  Ironically, Fritz Beckhardt had his plane painted with one facing backwards. He was Jewish and flew in Jasta 26 with Hermann Göring with 17 confirmed kills.

 .

In German it is called a Hakenkreuz, meaning literally a hooked cross.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 1:52 PM

Gramp
NKP guy

3.  One of the best train rides in my life on the Ontario Northland RR took me right through the metropolis of Swastika in northern Ontario.  A vote on retaining its name during the war resulted in the residents deciding to keep it; after all, they reasoned, the town had it first!  To hell with Hitler!

The city of Berlin, WI changed the syllable to be emphasized in its name because of the wars with Germany from berLIN to BERlin. It's been BERlin ever since. 

The city of Berlin, Ontario changed its name to Kitchener in 1916 for the same reason.

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Posted by azrail on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 1:47 PM

Actually the NKP lettering on the loco tender is called a "logotype", like the flying "Rio Grande" logo (est 1941)

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Posted by NKP guy on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 1:43 PM

Murphy Siding
Thanks. I had the same question. Now tell me where a drumhead fits into this picture?

They fit in beautifully!

 The drumheads I see on Google employ both logos and heralds:

Passenger train drumheads

 

 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 12:43 PM

NKP guy

 

 
zugmann
1. Is there any real differnece between a logo and a herald? 

 

   I'd suggest this differentiation:

                                                          LOGOS:

File:New York, Chicago & St. Louis Railroad (Nickel Plate Road) - 757 steam  locomotive (S-2 2-8-4) & tender 6 (26516215423).jpg - Wikimedia Commons

                                                           

Modeling the Nickel Plate's ex-C&O Cabooses NKP Fun in Two Scales at Once

 

                                                      HERALDS:

   To me, a Logo comes from logos, or word.  Just using the word is to use a logo.  A "herald," as far as I'm concerned, is on the other hand, rather a combination of a logo and a coat-of-arms (the study of which is termed "heraldry").  The use of the term "herald" is probably incorrect; after all, it's a job title! However, it's commonly used and accepted, especially by railfans.

   Notice on the Bluebird above (with its boring colors and unimaginative logo!   LOL)  the herald's colors are reversed from the way it's almost always shown.  Growing up and seeing this herald daily, it was strange to see, starting in the 1970's, that almost everywhere (non NKP) I looked, it was shown as below:

   In summary, to me, putting a logo into some kind of arrangement makes it a herald.  Whatever in the heck that is!  I think most railfans see them as interchangeable terms.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks. I had the same question. Now tell me where a drumhead fits into this picture?

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 12:23 PM

charlie hebdo
some Luftstreitkräfte aircraft used it during the war.

Right, there was a German ace, a member of the Red Baron's "Flying Circus" who's name escapes me at the moment who used it as a personal marking.  This was before the Freikorps was established and certainly before the Nazis.

"Swastika" comes from the Sanskrit, translated it means "good luck," and it was used by quite a few people as a good luck symbol. I'd assume that's why that German pilot put it on his plane.  

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Posted by Gramp on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 11:10 AM

NKP guy

3.  One of the best train rides in my life on the Ontario Northland RR took me right through the metropolis of Swastika in northern Ontario.  A vote on retaining its name during the war resulted in the residents deciding to keep it; after all, they reasoned, the town had it first!  To hell with Hitler!

 

The city of Berlin, WI changed the syllable to be emphasized in its name because of the wars with Germany from berLIN to BERlin. It's been BERlin ever since. 

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Posted by NKP guy on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 10:25 AM

Convicted One:   

1.  You'll get no argument from me regarding the Bluebirds; I agree.

2.  President James A. Garfield's tomb in Cleveland's Lake View Cemetery, built in a Richardsonan Romanesque style  (1890), features a mosaic marble floor which has a border of small (wait for it!) reverse swastikas.  Curators there spend a lot of time explaining why.

3.  One of the best train rides in my life on the Ontario Northland RR took me right through the metropolis of Swastika in northern Ontario.  A vote on retaining its name during the war resulted in the residents deciding to keep it; after all, they reasoned, the town had it first!  To hell with Hitler!

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Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 9:32 AM

NKP guy
   Notice on the Bluebird above (with its boring colors and unimaginative logo!   LOL)  the herald's colors are reversed from the way it's almost always shown

 

FWIW, my disdain for the Bluebird livery stems mostly from the  whitewashed appearance of the sideboards.....

From the cab forward I think they are fine.

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Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 9:29 AM

ELRobby
I have seen a reference that a railroad called the St. Louis, Rocky Mountain & Pacific (a Santa Fe predecessor) also used it, but I can't confirm that.  I have seen pictures of the CA&S locomotive with the swastika on the tender (as I recall, in Sulzer's Ghost Railroads of Indiana).

The Ft Wayne & Wabash Valley Traction Company started using a swastika as it's emblem in 1909  pictured here roughly at mid point of the car

https://www.flickr.com/photos/shookphotos/8314193900

 

Also, just for scale and scope, I recall the pre WWII courthouse in downtown Birmingham Alabama had swastikas cast in cement on either side of it's main entry.  Still in place the last time I was there in 1990.    Every 10-15 years some new comer would come to work for the local news paper and have a fit upon seeing them, try to launch a crusade. 

 

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Posted by NKP guy on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 9:07 AM

zugmann
1. Is there any real differnece between a logo and a herald? 

   I'd suggest this differentiation:

                                                          LOGOS:

File:New York, Chicago & St. Louis Railroad (Nickel Plate Road) - 757 steam  locomotive (S-2 2-8-4) & tender 6 (26516215423).jpg - Wikimedia Commons

                                                           

Modeling the Nickel Plate's ex-C&O Cabooses NKP Fun in Two Scales at Once

 

                                                      HERALDS:

   To me, a Logo comes from logos, or word.  Just using the word is to use a logo.  A "herald," as far as I'm concerned, is on the other hand, rather a combination of a logo and a coat-of-arms (the study of which is termed "heraldry").  The use of the term "herald" is probably incorrect; after all, it's a job title! However, it's commonly used and accepted, especially by railfans.

   Notice on the Bluebird above (with its boring colors and unimaginative logo!   LOL)  the herald's colors are reversed from the way it's almost always shown.  Growing up and seeing this herald daily, it was strange to see, starting in the 1970's, that almost everywhere (non NKP) I looked, it was shown as below:

   In summary, to me, putting a logo into some kind of arrangement makes it a herald.  Whatever in the heck that is!  I think most railfans see them as interchangeable terms.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 8:58 AM

cv_acr
 
BaltACD

Is it a Canadian thing that the nose of a locomotive must be Red?

Both CN & CP have red noses with their initials (logo) in white. 

Those aren't the only two railways in Canada, and the rest aren't painted red...

To Americans, there is nothing Canadian beyond CN & CP.  Those being the only two carriers that are seen South of the border.

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Posted by cv_acr on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 8:46 AM

BaltACD

Is it a Canadian thing that the nose of a locomotive must be Red?

Both CN & CP have red noses with their initials (logo) in white.

Those aren't the only two railways in Canada, and the rest aren't painted red...

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 8:37 AM

Flintlock76

 

 

 
ELRobby
I think my nomination for the worst herald, or perhaps the most reprehensible one, wins hands down.  That's the swastika that the Chicago, Attica & Southern emblazoned on the side of their tenders.

 

I see where you're coming from on this, but remember the swastika as an old symbol used world-wide from Japan to Native American cultures and lots of places in between.

Hitler grabbed on to it because he wanted a symbol for the Nazi Party that was bold, simple, and once anyone saw it they wouldn't forget it.  It worked for him, but he certainly ruined it for everyone else. 

 

Freikorps units used it from 1918 onward; some Luftstreitkräfte aircraft used it during the war.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 8:30 AM

It was modernized  or changed many times over the years, but the ball and bar in some form remained its  basis.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 8:27 AM

ELRobby
I think my nomination for the worst herald, or perhaps the most reprehensible one, wins hands down.  That's the swastika that the Chicago, Attica & Southern emblazoned on the side of their tenders.

I see where you're coming from on this, but remember the swastika as an old symbol used world-wide from Japan to Native American cultures and lots of places in between.

Hitler grabbed on to it because he wanted a symbol for the Nazi Party that was bold, simple, and once anyone saw it they wouldn't forget it.  It worked for him, but he certainly ruined it for everyone else. 

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