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Murphy Siding How does the movement of chassis work? If BNSF brings back empty containers from the ACME ship line, are they on chassis owned by ACME and can only ship out with ACME containers?
How does the movement of chassis work? If BNSF brings back empty containers from the ACME ship line, are they on chassis owned by ACME and can only ship out with ACME containers?
The ship lines use chassis pools. One such chassis pool is DCLI (Direct Chassis Link Incorporated). Not only that. The container lines also own these pools via subsidiary. Typically an alliance (Such as P3 which is an alliance among; Maersk, MSC, and CMA-CGM) can use the same chassis pool.
Just pondering....If the port has decided to ramp up operations to try and optimize throughput, the one thing they would NOT want to risk happening would be for other entities to take advantage of any slack created, for their own exclusive benefit. So towards that end perhaps the fines are just intended as a cattle prod of sorts to assure that all players are duely motivated?
Be kind of a waste if the ports themserlves hustled 24/7, but the rest of the players maintained a "yeah whatever" attitude.
Assuming that the container owners want the containers to be returned, they must have some kind of contract that requires the return. And for this to work, there must be a motivation to return them that is stipulated by the contract. So why are containers not being returned?
If the failure to return containers is due to some kind of gridlock that makes return impossible, I can understand the agreement being broken. But then if that is the case, imposing fines for failure to return containers is a stupid remedy that cannot work.
I have to wonder if the failure to return containers is a made-up problem to use as an excuse for not handling containers fast enough at the port.
Euclid I have to wonder if the failure to return containers is a made-up problem to use as an excuse for not handling containers fast enough at the port.
As I understand a portion of the problem - you have space to park 100 empty containers. You have 200 empty containers to park. The empty containers that won't fit in the space available are sitting on chassis, which are needed so full containers can be moved out, to make more room for empties.
The solution linked earlier ("5 ways") suggested establishing satellite sites for storing empties.
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tree68 Euclid I have to wonder if the failure to return containers is a made-up problem to use as an excuse for not handling containers fast enough at the port. As I understand a portion of the problem - you have space to park 100 empty containers. You have 200 empty containers to park. The empty containers that won't fit in the space available are sitting on chassis, which are needed so full containers can be moved out, to make more room for empties. The solution linked earlier ("5 ways") suggested establishing satellite sites for storing empties.
Terminal areas have finite limits - exceed the limits for whatever the reasons and the operation slows to a snails pace as each element of the terminal is fighting for and waiting on operating resources.
If you have container cranes that are able to handle 60 boxes an hour and you can only supply 15 loadable chassis per hour - how fast are the container cranes? If a drayman has to move a container 3000 feet or 30,000 feet to its needed location, how many draymen will it take to keep the terminal fluid? It takes a tremendous amount of coordination to keep terminals (of ANY kind - railroad, trucking, UPS, FedEx, waterborne container).
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BaltACDTerminal areas have finite limits - exceed the limits for whatever the reasons and the operation slows to a snails pace as each element of the terminal is fighting for and waiting on operating resources. If you have container cranes that are able to handle 60 boxes an hour and you can only supply 15 loadable chassis per hour - how fast are the container cranes? If a drayman has to move a container 3000 feet or 30,000 feet to its needed location, how many draymen will it take to keep the terminal fluid? It takes a tremendous amount of coordination to keep terminals (of ANY kind - railroad, trucking, UPS, FedEx, waterborne container).
I never understood why that job is not partially automated. They have automated Forklifts where I work and at large MFR companies, they do very well with large stacks of items placed in specific spots. Why not automate the moves within the container port itself? Seems to me would lower costs and probably be an overall safer operation.
CMStPnP BaltACD Terminal areas have finite limits - exceed the limits for whatever the reasons and the operation slows to a snails pace as each element of the terminal is fighting for and waiting on operating resources. If you have container cranes that are able to handle 60 boxes an hour and you can only supply 15 loadable chassis per hour - how fast are the container cranes? If a drayman has to move a container 3000 feet or 30,000 feet to its needed location, how many draymen will it take to keep the terminal fluid? It takes a tremendous amount of coordination to keep terminals (of ANY kind - railroad, trucking, UPS, FedEx, waterborne container). I never understood why that job is not partially automated. They have automated Forklifts where I work and at large MFR companies, they do very well with large stacks of items placed in specific spots. Why not automate the moves within the container port itself? Seems to me would lower costs and probably be an overall safer operation.
BaltACD Terminal areas have finite limits - exceed the limits for whatever the reasons and the operation slows to a snails pace as each element of the terminal is fighting for and waiting on operating resources. If you have container cranes that are able to handle 60 boxes an hour and you can only supply 15 loadable chassis per hour - how fast are the container cranes? If a drayman has to move a container 3000 feet or 30,000 feet to its needed location, how many draymen will it take to keep the terminal fluid? It takes a tremendous amount of coordination to keep terminals (of ANY kind - railroad, trucking, UPS, FedEx, waterborne container).
The problem with terminals - all of them - no matter the mode or purpose. Everything moving through the terminal gets handled more than one time - all for valid reasons, but more than one time never the less. Every handling requires time and space. What are the two things terminals never have enough of? Time and Space.
The one thing you learn very early in 'transportation', don't move something UNLESS you know where and why you are moving it. Moving it just because it is 'moveable' is sure fire way to tie the terminal in knotts.
EuclidIf the failure to return containers is due to some kind of gridlock that makes return impossible, I can understand the agreement being broken. But then if that is the case, imposing fines for failure to return containers is a stupid remedy that cannot work.
Well, at least somebody seems to believe that going to a 24 hour schedule is part of the solution. So it makes sense that they want to be able to force the ocean carriers to receive returned containers as soon as they are offered.
It would be dumb to have port employees working overnight trying to bust the gridlock, only to have the boats say "see ya guys at 9 am". So perhaps the fines are seen as a way to assure participation?
Convicted One Euclid If the failure to return containers is due to some kind of gridlock that makes return impossible, I can understand the agreement being broken. But then if that is the case, imposing fines for failure to return containers is a stupid remedy that cannot work. Well, at least somebody seems to believe that going to a 24 hour schedule is part of the solution. So it makes sense that they want to be able to force the ocean carriers to receive returned containers as soon as they are offered. It would be dumb to have port employees working overnight trying to bust the gridlock, only to have the boats say "see ya guys at 9 am". So perhaps the fines are seen as a way to assure participation?
Euclid If the failure to return containers is due to some kind of gridlock that makes return impossible, I can understand the agreement being broken. But then if that is the case, imposing fines for failure to return containers is a stupid remedy that cannot work.
Back in the day - The employees of the B&O Export Coal Pier had jobs that were bulletined for Daylight hours Monday-Friday. Despite this, ships would tend to arrive on Friday afternoons to be loaded during the weekend - around the clock. A portion of the ships crew would get 'liberty' during the weekend.
Coal Pier personnel 'cleaned up' on Overtime earnings and tended to 'rest' on their straight time hours. At that time Coal Pier personnel worked for money, not prestige.
Every location and labor agreement is different and the personnel performing the necessary duties are also different.
Well, I have seen one video interviewing some head of the port workers union and when asked if they would make more progress now that they will work 24/7, he replied that they have always worked 24/7.
The 11 PM news this evening reported that the Port of Baltimore has attracted 14 rerouted California vessels in the recent past. The vessels were able to make a regular port call with normal docking, unloading, loading and sailing. PoB is actively seeking reroutes.
Euclid one video interviewing some head of the port workers union and when asked if they would make more progress now that they will work 24/7, he replied that they have always worked 24/7.
I wonder if there might be a scanario where both lines of thinking might be true? At least prior to the current state of affairs, locally we had numerous "24 hour" retailers, but if you compared staffing levels between 3 PM and 3 AM, there was considerable difference.
Convicted One Euclid one video interviewing some head of the port workers union and when asked if they would make more progress now that they will work 24/7, he replied that they have always worked 24/7. I wonder if there might be a scanario where both lines of thinking might be true? At least prior to the current state of affairs, locally we had numerous "24 hour" retailers, but if you compared staffing levels between 3 PM and 3 AM, there was considerable difference.
I'm seeing reports that California ships are now arriving in Florida and Baltimore, where they are promptly unloaded...
Taking a little pressure off CA will certainly help them sort out their issues.
One might wonder, though., whether the shippers might begin to see these alternative ports as more desirable than CA...
tree68I'm seeing reports that California ships are now arriving in Florida and Baltimore, where they are promptly unloaded... Taking a little pressure off CA will certainly help them sort out their issues. One might wonder, though., whether the shippers might begin to see these alternative ports as more desirable than CA...
It all depends upon the size of the ship! If the ship can't navigate the Panama Canal the economics of ship diversion to the US East Coast are even worse.
tree68 I'm seeing reports that California ships are now arriving in Florida and Baltimore, where they are promptly unloaded... Taking a little pressure off CA will certainly help them sort out their issues. One might wonder, though., whether the shippers might begin to see these alternative ports as more desirable than CA...
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Another good summary of elasticity of demand:
https://www.analyticssteps.com/blogs/5-factors-affecting-price-elasticity-demand-ped
Murphy SidingPerhaps, but that might just be for the short term. Long term, costs probably play a huge part in the decision making process.
No question. What crossed my mind, however, was a potential result of permanent redirection on the CA ports, ie, loss of business.
tree68No question. What crossed my mind, however, was a potential result of permanent redirection on the CA ports, ie, loss of business.
Doesn't that mean a trip through the canal? Seems like that would add cost.
rdamonDoesn't that mean a trip through the canal? Seems like that would add cost.
It does - I think someone linked to a resource for that earlier in the thread.
You have to add probably a week more just for steaming, if you will, to get to the east coast from the Pacific. I think I saw one graphic that suggested two weeks.
OTOH, it costs money to have the ship just sit at anchor, too.
People who crunch numbers for all of that will crunch the numbers and determine which option works best.
I think I've read that some east coast ports are actively soliciting their terminal capabilities. Perhaps that includes discounts, although I've heard nothing along that line.
It will be interesting to see how this all falls out.
rdamon tree68 No question. What crossed my mind, however, was a potential result of permanent redirection on the CA ports, ie, loss of business. Doesn't that mean a trip through the canal? Seems like that would add cost.
tree68 No question. What crossed my mind, however, was a potential result of permanent redirection on the CA ports, ie, loss of business.
For ships that can get through the canal. Most of the newest, biggest are too large and must go around the tip of South America.
Some of the newest generation of container ships are even to big for the Suez canal also.
Panama Canal tolls - and allowable vessel sizes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FxBBE8DfJI
Shadow the Cats ownerSome of the newest generation of container ships are even to big for the Suez canal also.
Damage to the vessel that shut down the Suez Canal for 6 days in March 2021.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEo0_A0fLuM
Shadow the Cats owner Some of the newest generation of container ships are even to big for the Suez canal also.
Hence the term "Panamax."
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