The NTSB guy said that the derailment happened on a gentle righthand curve before the switch.
Still in training.
BEAUSABRE Passenger account of the wreck (217) Amtrak train derailment: Passenger recounts moment train derailed in Montana - YouTube
Passenger account of the wreck
(217) Amtrak train derailment: Passenger recounts moment train derailed in Montana - YouTube
A very knowledgeable passenger. And thoughtful. And likable.
Good interview!
Ed
NTSB news conference:
https://youtu.be/HydfaXKhHYc
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
diningcar With the train direction being westward the three overturned cars are on their RIGHT sides, as they followed at the rear of the Builder. These three cars overturned and never reached the switch.
With the train direction being westward the three overturned cars are on their RIGHT sides, as they followed at the rear of the Builder. These three cars overturned and never reached the switch.
They WERE on their "right" sides. But someone flipped them over. Hence the different positions in the photos.
Those three cars certainly never made it to the switch. They look to be about 4 carlengths short. I have proposed that the derailment traveled down the train, from the first cars that derailed. And that it happened at the switch.
I'm a bit less enthusiastic about that, now. But it strikes me as odd that there is a derailment just a few hundred feet AHEAD of a track switch.
We're still a long way from knowing "why". Once known, the location (at the switch or near the switch) will also be known.
ChuckCobleighIn the meantime, it's like the old saying, "There's been an explosion in the boarding house; roomers are flying everywhere."
One of two things can come out of our speculation - either "I told you so," or, "well, I learned something." Or maybe a "I can't believe they don't see it my way" or two...
Unless they find a smoking gun almost immediately, odds are many of the same questions are going through the investigator's heads.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
wjstix Note that in the Daily Mail aerial picture, the three cars east of the switch are laying on their left sides, with the trucks facing away from the track. Given the side of the track they're on, they should be on their right side, since the cars that tipped only tipped 90 degrees. That would lead me to believe the cars have been moved there, rather than that being where they ended up immediately after the accident.
Note that in the Daily Mail aerial picture, the three cars east of the switch are laying on their left sides, with the trucks facing away from the track. Given the side of the track they're on, they should be on their right side, since the cars that tipped only tipped 90 degrees. That would lead me to believe the cars have been moved there, rather than that being where they ended up immediately after the accident.
Looks that way. Here's another photo, with what looks like all three with their underbody facing the track:
Not so great for preserving evidence.
I am proud of the Chester and surrounding communities to bring food and supplies to the passengers.
One side comment, in the 1980's the BN abandoned a lot of trackage. One was the Havre to Great Falls, Montana was severed out of Havre and northeast of Great Falls. I bet the BNSF with they had that trackage back in. I saw too much of that foolishness.
Ed Burns
P. S. I was there on the BN at that time.
ChuckCobleigh In the meantime, it's like the old saying, "There's been an explosion in the boarding house; roomers are flying everywhere."
In the meantime, it's like the old saying, "There's been an explosion in the boarding house; roomers are flying everywhere."
See, this is why we have NTSB accident investigation teams on the job. There will be, in due time, a detailed report of the investigation which will no doubt be interesting reading. (I have found many such reports over the years to be very educational.)
It looks to me like that part of the train began derailing before it got to the switch. So I'm guessing wheel or truck failure.
It was 84F. That doesn't strike me as being high enough to cause a problem for properly installed track. It was a good bit warmer a couple of months ago, and the rail expansion would have been greater, then.
A sun kink can produce a derailment pattern like that. They start with excess compression of the rails from thermal expansion. At that point, the issue is not visible. But when the train runs over that compression, it kneads the track and that kneading action tends to work out the compression.
As the compression works out, it causes the track to loop out of alignment, displace ties, etc. This is the formation of the actual kink that can be seen. As it forms, the train may still follow the looping form. But as it moves further out of alignment, the train can derail. So the overall effect of the sun kink is to worsen as the train passes over it to the final point of causing upset cars.
There is a good video of this online, if I can find it.
This photo shows the overturned cars east of the turnout switch by perhaps 100-200 feet. The next three are on the main but in the switch area. Perhaps some of the upright cars have been moved as they try to reopen the main track.
This is a weird one but the visual suggests to me that there was a train problem, not a track problem and the track has been distorted as a result of thr derailment.
Thanks!
tree68 7j43k There was an aerial view of the wreck in the paper this morning. The event happened at the EAST end of the siding. Ed Which paper? The image may be on-line as well.
7j43k There was an aerial view of the wreck in the paper this morning. The event happened at the EAST end of the siding. Ed
There was an aerial view of the wreck in the paper this morning. The event happened at the EAST end of the siding.
Which paper? The image may be on-line as well.
New York Times.
But I found an even more illustrative photo online, just now:
Looked around a bit at the fire departments that could be involved. It's been pointed out that seven counties had units respond.
The four closest departments along US2 - Chester, Joplin, Inverness, and Rudyard, together roster perhaps 85 members. From what I can see, they are primarily oriented toward wildland fires.
Given the general sparseness (as mentioned) in the area, some of the responding units had quite a ways to travel.
For those not familiar with the Builder, the front 6-8 cars (the cars ahead of the observation / lounge car) of the westbound train from Chicago go to Seattle, the rear 3-4 cars are cut off in eastern Washington state and go to Portland Oregon. According to one person on board (link below), it was the rear "Portland" portion that derailed; at least he notes from his vantage point the engines were upright and appeared to be on the track. That and the mention of the 'rough ride' in one car might indicate a car in the mid-rear had a damaged wheel that derailed when it hit the East Buelow switch, after the engines and front cars passed through.
But as noted, it's all just speculation at this point....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KaWvo6BGxw
7j43kThere are not very many pictures on-line--I wonder why.
It is an extremely remote area of Montana. The nearest town, Joplin is about 200 people and all of Liberty County has 2339 people spread over 1447 square miles - about 1.6 persons per square mile. The county's medical facility is a 25 bed "critical access hospital" in the county seat, Chester, about ten miles from the wreck. Joplin is 194 miles from the biggest urban center, Helena. So it is doubtful if it is on any media outlet's normal beat - maybe one or two have a stringer in Chester. Reports are that six nearby counties are assisting Liberty County forces at the wreck with local families assisting survivors with food and drink and working at the ad hoc emergency center in Liberty High School. I don't think they have time to take photographs.
"Sarah Robbin, the disaster emergency services coordinator for Liberty County, Mont., one of the most rural counties in the state, had spent much of her time over the past few years playing out a scenario like this in her head and planning how best to respond.
In each of the small towns that dot Route 2, which cuts through northern Montana along the railroad tracks, there are just a few hundred to a few thousand residents. The nearest major hospital is hours away by car. Emergency services are sparse.
“We are a small county,” she said, adding that anything like Saturday’s crash “would immediately overwhelm us. Being small and rural, relying on your neighbors is extremely important.”
In the town of Chester, about 7 to 8 miles west of the derailment, a siren system alerts the 1,000 or so residents to any important news. One ring signals a city meeting. Two, an ambulance. Three, a fire call. And four, “some terrible disaster,” said Jesse Anderson, who owns the MX Motel, a 20-room stopover that typically caters to anglers, construction workers and hunters.
When Mr. Anderson heard four sirens yesterday, he assumed it was a mistake. But then he saw fire trucks speeding through the 25 miles-per-hour main street.
“We had no idea it was going to be something of this scale,” he said.
Emergency responders from across at least seven counties rushed in to help. As the only motel for 50 miles, east or west, Mr. Anderson was called on to house some of the passengers. He offered his available rooms free of charge.
Families from a nearby Hutterite colony brought food for passengers while they waited for rides and lodging in the school gym."
Euclid Here is some focus on the possible cause. It sounds like the train may have picked the switch after the engines and two cars passed over it. Maybe the switch had been damaged by another train prior to the passage of Amtrak. https://apnews.com/article/amtrak-crash-montana-c8c3730849f568ca68b455eb23b49cef “Railroad safety expert David Clarke, director of the Center for Transportation Research at the University of Tennessee, said accident scene photos show the derailment occurred at or near a switch, which is where the railway goes from a single track to a double track. Clarke said the two locomotives and two cars at the front of the train reached the split and continued on the main track, but the remaining eight cars derailed. He said it was unclear if some of the last cars moved onto the second track.”
Here is some focus on the possible cause. It sounds like the train may have picked the switch after the engines and two cars passed over it. Maybe the switch had been damaged by another train prior to the passage of Amtrak.
https://apnews.com/article/amtrak-crash-montana-c8c3730849f568ca68b455eb23b49cef
“Railroad safety expert David Clarke, director of the Center for Transportation Research at the University of Tennessee, said accident scene photos show the derailment occurred at or near a switch, which is where the railway goes from a single track to a double track.
Clarke said the two locomotives and two cars at the front of the train reached the split and continued on the main track, but the remaining eight cars derailed. He said it was unclear if some of the last cars moved onto the second track.”
The train was westbound.
There was/is a siding, with a switch at each end.
The problem happened at or near one of them.
It is not clear which switch it was.
I tend towards the western one, where the train could not have picked the points, as it would then be coming from the diverging end.
There are not very many pictures on-line--I wonder why. One seemed to show the tipped cars adjacent to more than two rails, which would fit with the western switch. One rail was tipped, which is interesting.
But. Here's a photo with the bungelow with the sign for East Buelow:
The other tipped cars should be behind the photographer. Here, it looks like the location is the eastern switch of the siding, and picking the points is a possibility. The two signals seem to be facing away, also indicating this is at the east switch.
Some passengers reported vibration and a rough ride prior to the derailment, which would seem to point to a failure in the running gear
amplification from later reports
"Some passengers reported that the train ride felt bumpy for many miles, which might signal a problem with the train’s suspension system. But even if a train’s crew takes note of a problem like that, its source could be difficult to identify while the train is running between cities, Mr. Zarembski said.
If the turbulence was more sudden, Saturday’s heat could also be to blame, said Russell Quimby, a retired accident investigator for the National Transportation Safety Board.
Mr. Quimby said he suspects the train may have hit a section of the track that had buckled from overheating."
Not double track, just a long siding for long freights to clear the main track. Or perhaps the satellite photo I accessed is out of date.
The event happened at or near a track switch at the end of a siding. In one photo from it, I saw a photo of a bungalow with what I take to be a station name of East Buelow. The siding is about a mile or three west of Joplin.
It's single track at each end of the siding. Just a "plain ole passing siding". It appears to be a CTC siding, based on the signals and what I take as switch motors.
I can't tell what track the train was on. I would expect it would be on the main, hence not a diverging route. But it's something to keep in mind.
(I see diningcar posted much the same just ahead of me.)
Possible scenario is that the switch was set against the train. Should be impossible, I think. What with ABS and CTC. On t'other hand, if the dispatcher wanted the Builder to stop at the siding and wait, maybe he had the switch set for the oncoming train. And then the Builder blew through the red and hit the switch. And went over.
Another probably more likely is that there was some sort of mechanical failure of the trackwork. Something "broke".
Still another is something fell off a preceding train right there, and tripped up the Builder.
Another, of course, is sabotage. Hope not!
It's been pointed out that trains had gone through there recently. I expect those crews will be interviewed on the chance that they saw or felt something funny.
And, of course, if there WAS an oncoming train,.......
NTSB normally shows up, looks around, and has a news conference a kupla days later, where they release some of what they just found out. Then you don't hear from them for a year or more while they try to nail it all down.
I used google earth to locate Joplin and the single track is tangent there. About one mile west from Joplin there is a curve to the right (westbound) and just beyond the curve there is a siding on the left (westbound). This may be the location; and for you who may have a BNSF timetable I believe the siding is named Buelow. The switch appears to be a #24 which would allow 40+ mph; and appears to be dispatcher controlled.
7j43k jeffhergert There are three cars, detached from the rest of the train, on their sides before the switch. Jeff When cars derail, as some/all of the ones ahead of the three cars did, they both slow dramatically and become misaligned with the track. Following cars can affected by this. The following cars "run into" the earlier cars. I find it interesting that the event happened either at, or very near, a track switch. It IS certainly possible that it had nothing to do with the switch, and it's a big coincidence that it happened there. Ed
jeffhergert There are three cars, detached from the rest of the train, on their sides before the switch. Jeff
There are three cars, detached from the rest of the train, on their sides before the switch.
Jeff
When cars derail, as some/all of the ones ahead of the three cars did, they both slow dramatically and become misaligned with the track. Following cars can affected by this.
The following cars "run into" the earlier cars.
I find it interesting that the event happened either at, or very near, a track switch. It IS certainly possible that it had nothing to do with the switch, and it's a big coincidence that it happened there.
What is the track layout there? From the sketchy video, I got the impression that there was one of more mainline switches there, maybe with crossovers. When you suggest a switch might have caused the derailment, what would be the possible scenarios for that? Would it be possible to go though a diverging route switch at too great of speed?
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.