Michael Sol: I know relatively little about the PCE. However, I am glad you have returned, as these fora need some energy, even if controversy is a byproduct.
There sure is a lot of snarkiness in this thread...
TRRWhy would you find conversations between the identical owners of both companies in the "business records" out in Montana? Those conversations and those decisions took place at "26 Broadway, New York City." William Rockefeller does have limited records at the "Rockerfeller Archives, Tarrytown, NY." Best regards, Michael Sol
As stated you can Google the history of the Anaconda Mining Corp online and it contradicts a lot of what you state including the alleged tonnage that the Milwaukee handled from Anaconda Mining in Montana.
TRRSince I have no idea where you "get your information," I will try and keep this brief and adressed to your key, salient, point. Your contention is false. The Anaconda Company, the Milwaukee Road, and the Montana Power Company shared the same ownership. Start there. The controlling owners of the Anaconda Company controlled the Milwaukee Road for 20 years prior to their acquisition of the ACM (Anaconda Copper Mining Co). In the book, "Frenzied Finance, The Crime of the Amlgmated" (1907) by Thomas Lawson, Lawson noted, in detail, the animosity that H.H. Rogers, in particular, had for Financier J.P. Morgan, who was the key financier of... James J. Hill, and the GN and NP. Lawson examined Rogers' actions in 1901, with the collapse of the Northern Securities Company, meant at that time to bring a truce in railroad competition and building, by constructing a general holding company to include the UP, GN, NP, and MILW. One of the handicaps was that all of Northern Pacific's assets, including the vast Land Grants, were tied up by its 100 Year Bonds, that Morgan had been forced to issue in order to get the "otherwise worthless railroad" out of its 1893 Bankruptcy (it's second one). James J. Hill had, however, gotten effective control of the NP at that time. Hill was well known for exploiting any power he had to impose high freight rates. That was one reason he never took a salary from the Great Northern: at the sacrifice of his own customers, he made sure the GN always earned a healthy profit. One of the legacy "sayings" of farmers in Minnesota was "After the grasshoppers, we had Jim Hill." It became clear to William Rockefeller and H.H. Rogers that the Northern Securities Company was not going to offer any protection on rates out of Montana for what was to become one of the world's largest copper producers, as well a timber owners. They directed the Milwaukee Road to commence surveys to serve Butte in 1902. And the first two surveys only went as far as Butte. But, as Rogers told Thomas Lawson, "It won't be long before we won't have to deal with Morgan and Hill, not long at all." The Milwaukee surveys resurrected old surveys to Seattle (the CM&StP had purchased harbor/dock frontage there in 1887. "St. Paul Buys Terminal Frontage in Seattle," The_Railway News, May 28, 1887 The entire point was to avoid Hill's onerous use of captive freight rates to handsomely line his own pockets. H.H. Rogers himself organized the Milwaukee's "Pacific Extension Committee" and served as its Chair until his death in 1909. A key point, however, was to generate for the Milwaukee Road a superior route structure not only from the standpoint of economical operation, but also to exploit the Milwaukee's acknolwedged expertise in homesteading and settlement. The Company added to that the purchase of nearly 500,000 acres of the best forest lands in the United States by purchases in Northern Idaho and on the Olympic Peninsula. After that, Milwaukee went after "foreign freight" through the Ports of Seattle and Tacoma, and got most of that too. The advent of the Milwaukee "out West" was devastating to the Northern Pacific, although somewhat less so for the Great Northern, since the GN didn't have that much business on its western end, most of its business, and profit, came as an ore hauler out of the Messabe Range in Minnesota. By 1916, the Milwaukee had cut substantially into NP's traffic, and reduced GN's share of that traffic to a distant ... third. Indeed, in Louis Renz's seminal book on the Northern Pacific, he notes at one chapter heading, beginning in 1914, as the beginning of the "long decline." GN, in the meantime, killed more people than any railroad in American history when a passenger train got "stuck in the snow." The White Cascade: The Great Northern Railway Disaster and America's Deadliest Avalanche," Gary Krist. It first crossed Stevens Pass (using switchbacks), then a tunnel that suffered 10 degree curves and asphixiation, followed by, in 1929, an 8 mile tunnel that required gas masks for the crews to get through it. And it still had a plethora of 10 degree curves on both sides! And, for specific reference, the records of the ACM, demonstrating the heavy tonnage delivered daily to the Milwaukee Road can be found in the "Anaconda Copper Mining Company records, 1876-1974," on file at the Montana Historical Society, Research Center Archives, Helena, Montana, although I note that, for some reason, one year of those records, 1917, is on file at the University of Montana Library Archives, Missoula. As Wm Rockefeller and H.H. Rogers intended, the Milwaukee Road got most of the ACM and allied company traffic. The completion of the PCE began a traffic boom on the CM&StP, whereas on both GN and NP, traffic dried up. Milwaukee went from the smallest of its peer railroads in 1905, to the largest by 1925. Indeed, to emphasize the point, the ACM had a cash flow problem in 1917, and borrowed $10 million from ... the CM&STP. Source: Minutes, Board of Directors, February 21, 1917. Ryan was present but did not vote on the loan. Milwaukee Road Archives, Milwaukee Public Library. I hope this helps. Best regards, Michael Sol
I find it rather amazing all this tonnage and freight was carried without the knowledge of the Milwaukee Road employees in operations. So where are your links to the traffic studies and tonnage carried because most Milwaukee employees on YouTube stated the Milwaukee never carried much freight on the PCE.
I think the stat I heard from the 1950s was 2-3 through freights a day plus the passenger trains. Show me the written testimony from operations of this windfall traffic, maybe a few first person accounts from operations.
How did the Milwaukee survive on so few PCE Electric locomotives with all this tonnage and trains hauled over the PCE? Where were all the employees on the PCE to handle this freight. Last, why was the Milwaukees rail, roadbed and tunnels so substandard by it's own internal studies by 1960's-1970's. Beyond initial construction I do not see a lot of investment at line improvement. Certainly that would be the case with a line that had booming traffic.
I just don't understand the writer's passion to stomp on the fond memories of the fans of the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension. There is no other reason for the way he approached the subject.
Michael Sol:Great to have you back. Missed you and the spirited conversations during the last 10 years.
It has been boring.
Ed
The other question is that even if the PCE was making a good profit in its latter years, were the bonds required to build it still sapping the overall financial condition of the company? I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
Lithonia Operator Hundreds of railroads have gone by the wayside ... For those of us who are not following this closely and/or don't have much basis in Milwaukee Road history, what is so special about this story? I understand that the Milwaukee Road had the ill-fated western expansion. But what is it about the MILW that spurs so much emotion and even active discord?
Hundreds of railroads have gone by the wayside ...
For those of us who are not following this closely and/or don't have much basis in Milwaukee Road history, what is so special about this story?
I understand that the Milwaukee Road had the ill-fated western expansion. But what is it about the MILW that spurs so much emotion and even active discord?
Probbably many factors LO. The subjective thought that MILW always had the most direct and fastest route, the memories of the Olympian Hiawatha traveling through the majestic northern Rockies, people who passionately worked for the MILW, railfans who don't understand railroad economics 101, and believe every single rail line should exist just because. I'll throw in this. People generally speaking do enjoy conspiracy theory, and drama as well.
The operational reality is that we had an overbuilt rail network. Quite a few lines were built for short term gain, with losses being passed onto investors. Look at all the booms and preceding bust we've had. Right now it's EV's. 20 years ago it was the .com boom and bust. The rails were no different back then. It should be no surprise we went from almost 270,000 miles of rail. To todays roughly 140,000 miles.
It appears during this time there was a weird dislike of the BN back then. Which I don't quite understand. If it wasn't for the 11 Western Gateways, MILW PCE would have been abandoned sooner than later in my opinion. MILW gained traffic at the expense of BN gateways. Not its own. traffic did grow on the Lines West. Yet it wasn't enough to cover a massive deficit the MILW carried for most of its existence. Nor did it put a large dent in BN's higher margin traffic.
Lithonia Operator I guess there must be two camps even now: a) Never shoulda done it and should have known better, and b) Great idea, but got killed off by inevitable, but then unforeseeable, historical developments in the railroad industry.
I guess there must be two camps even now:
a) Never shoulda done it and should have known better, and
b) Great idea, but got killed off by inevitable, but then unforeseeable, historical developments in the railroad industry.
Still in training.
TRR Gramp If the MR did become a formidable competitor with its PCE, how did it lose its edge, later becoming an also-ran? The loading of the question AND providing the answer, offers no room for error in the analysis does it? You can reference the Professional Study that changed Trustee Stanley Hillman's mind from "we think we might keep some lines running" to "It turns out that the Milwaukee Road is a relatively wealthy company," to reading in Leon Levy's interesting book, "The Mind of Wall Street" how Milwaukee Road stock became the most valuable such railroad stock in America, and made Levy, among others, a fabulously wealthy man. The Professional Study that so shocked Trustee Hillman that he essentially stopped speaking to the officers whom he felt had misled him, got an ulcer, and then resigned, can be found in the "Milwaukee Road Strategic Planning Studies, Booz-Allen-Hamilton Consulting Study, May 2, 1979." Best regards, Michael Sol
Gramp If the MR did become a formidable competitor with its PCE, how did it lose its edge, later becoming an also-ran?
If the MR did become a formidable competitor with its PCE, how did it lose its edge, later becoming an also-ran?
The loading of the question AND providing the answer, offers no room for error in the analysis does it?
You can reference the Professional Study that changed Trustee Stanley Hillman's mind from "we think we might keep some lines running" to "It turns out that the Milwaukee Road is a relatively wealthy company," to reading in Leon Levy's interesting book, "The Mind of Wall Street" how Milwaukee Road stock became the most valuable such railroad stock in America, and made Levy, among others, a fabulously wealthy man.
The Professional Study that so shocked Trustee Hillman that he essentially stopped speaking to the officers whom he felt had misled him, got an ulcer, and then resigned, can be found in the "Milwaukee Road Strategic Planning Studies, Booz-Allen-Hamilton Consulting Study, May 2, 1979."
Best regards, Michael Sol
no, youth wants to know. The Olympian Hi was cut back well before its competitors. It got gateways with the BN merger which to me implies it was at a disadvantage prior to, not just afterward. Did regulatory mumbo jumbo through the decades weaken its ability to flourish vis a vis the others? Hardening of the arteries?
"Milwaukee went after "foreign freight" through the Ports of Seattle and Tacoma, and got most of that too."
Can you please provide context?
Upon a still closer re-reading you would find that, indeed, the memo was addressed solely to JDR Jr, as was the following note.
Cooper references in the latter that, in the interim between the two, JDR Jr. had told him he was forwarding the memo to his father.
The concern, therefore, is to research whether there is any record of that communication between Jr. and Sr., or subsequent action on Sr.'s part to purchase stock (whether or not inspired by the memo or any further inquiry or research into the opportunity). While Mr. Sol is probably not as avid a Rockefeller scholar as he is a PCE one, this information might already be known in secondary materials or railroad correspondence, and it might be interesting to see if there is evidence in William's contemporary correspondence too.
Upon a closer re-reading I see you are right. My apologies.
TRR CMStPnP Erik_Mag I suggest you read Stan Johnson's The Milwaukee Road's Western Extension, specifically page 23. I assisted Stan Johnson with that book, and wrote the Forward. Meticulously researched and well written, it is well worth the read. Never discount the usefulness of a viewpoint and a history infomed by eduction and experience. Best regards, Michael Sol
CMStPnP Erik_Mag I suggest you read Stan Johnson's The Milwaukee Road's Western Extension, specifically page 23.
Erik_Mag
I suggest you read Stan Johnson's The Milwaukee Road's Western Extension, specifically page 23.
I assisted Stan Johnson with that book, and wrote the Forward. Meticulously researched and well written, it is well worth the read. Never discount the usefulness of a viewpoint and a history infomed by eduction and experience.
Whose history? We have all the meeting minutes of the railroad in the Milwaukee Public Library collection. Why on earth would I travel to read up on a conspiracy theory with no evidence in the public record. What your alleging is completely illegal and the individuals involved could have been prosecuted for it because at a minimum it should have been recorded in the public record (no citation by you), Further it would have been available to bankruptcy trustees of the railroad since the PCE and related expenses were cited as reasons for bankruptcy......yet evidence on the decision making leading to it was suppressed (never mentioned by any bankruptcy trustee or presented as evidence to get more favorable reorg terms).
The biggest part of the story which makes me think it is all untrue is Anaconda Copper rarely contracted with Milwaukee Road for haulage, preferring NP and GN and even more so, most of Anaconda's ore haulage was on it's own lines in Mont as it was fairly self-contained. So if the conspiracy theory was true there was nowhere the Milwaukee benefitted from the alleged (but never proven) collusion between companies. Also, the timber and timber lands had zero to do with Anaconda Copper.
I read another spin on the Rockefeller story where he used his money to stave off a Milwaukee Bankruptcy. If true prior to the strengthening of the Fed, pretty normal for extremely wealthy folks to pool their money together to form a kind of stimulus to prevent a run on the banks and stave off a recession. If you look in history prior to the 1900's, it happened a few times. So I do not necessarily even see that move as a move directed at the railroad per se but to keep the economy from a deeper recession.
So until I see something in the public Corporation records or other than one persons point of view......will file this as bunk.
[quote user="TRR"]John D. Rockefeller rarely got involved in William's various investments. However, he did make a significant exception for the Pacific Coast Extension, and invested $7 million in it, upon the advice of his personal financial advisor. See, Confidential Letter, re: Analysis of Milwaukee Road, H.E. Cooper to John D. Rockefeller, November 6, 1908. Note: this is how "real" history is done.
Except that the John D. Rockefeller in question is John D. Rockefeller JUNIOR (see end of letter), a nephew of William Rockefeller. So as far as I can see, JDR Senior had no investment in this railroad.
duplicate
I read in a history about John Rockefeller that he was involved in financing the Milwaukee Road's extension. IIRC, it said the line was to be built to Everett, Wa.
CMStPnP I initially thought it would have been very shortsighted of BNSF Management to turn over one of the largest mineral areas in the United States to MRL and so that is what prompted me to look. BNSF retained all rights to Butte, MT including the line ownership and some distance outwards from that city.
BN leased the Butte-Garrison line to the Montana Western about the time the mine closeed in the '80, but then got it back in the early 2000s. I would imagine they retained trackage rights and first right of refusal.
Erik_MagStan Johnson wrote that Anaconda was pretty much taken over by William Rockefeller and Henry Roger
Erik_Magthe Milwaukee used several thousand tons.
A tiny drop in the bucket given the nationwide interurban building craze sponsored by Edison's apprentice.......Samuel Insull to use surplus electricity with the various Insull lines and power utilities and construction of Interurban lines across the country.
Milwaukee went with electrification as part of the tail end of that promotional craze at that time as well as it saw cheap hydro power as a solution to fix the complications of using steam power in extreme cold weather in the mountains. It had to change out steam power every x amount of miles so changing out electrical power less often was looked at as improvement in operations.
So I view the electrification in the historical context of the promotion of electrification and not the promotion of copper.
Your again mistaken on whom BAP interchanges with. It interchanges with BNSF at Butte and Silver Bow, MT.....which maybe ex-NP but the line is owned by BNSF not MRL and BNSF is listed at the interchange railroad not MRL. You can even see it on the BNSF map located here. I initially thought it would have been very shortsighted of BNSF Management to turn over one of the largest mineral areas in the United States to MRL and so that is what prompted me to look.
BNSF retained all rights to Butte, MT including the line ownership and some distance outwards from that city. Also, still not buying into the theory they were unhappy with NP rates. They were unhappy with one railroad in MT and that is why they built the BAP to begin with. They had the money to extend the BAP anywhere they wanted.....why would they push Milwaukee to build for them, does not make any sense. Also they had an interchange with UP which you really only need one competitor NOT two, to lower rates. Further most of the unrefined ore and tonnage was carried by BAP not the connecting railroads.
Look here at the BNSF map:
https://www.bnsf.com/bnsf-resources/pdf/ship-with-bnsf/maps-and-shipping-locations/bnsf-network-map.pdf
CMStPnP I'm not going to read that, you know why? You can google the history of the Anaconda mining company and not a single mention of the Milwaukee Road or any Anaconda mining interest driving the company to build the PCE.
I'm not going to read that, you know why? You can google the history of the Anaconda mining company and not a single mention of the Milwaukee Road or any Anaconda mining interest driving the company to build the PCE.
My experience is that there is a LOT of history that does not show up in a google search. I'm also a bit skeptical of corporate histories, e.g. McDonalds saying that the first store was in Illinois while in reality the first store was in San Bernardino.
Stan Johnson wrote that Anaconda was pretty much taken over by William Rockefeller and Henry Roger by the time that plans were first being made for the PCE, who also had connections with the directors of the Milwaukee Road. Anaconda was also interested in increasing the market for copper and railroad electrification was thought to be a significant new market for copper - the Milwaukee used several thousand tons.
FWIW, BNSF has not served Butte or Anaconda for several decades as it is MRL territory. The fact that BNSF was giving good service to that area in the 70's does not necessarily mean that the NP was giving good service in the 1900-1905 time frame.
One final comment - Why the PCE was built is a different question than whether or not the PCE should have been built.
CMStPnP Erik_Mag I suggest you read Stan Johnson's The Milwaukee Road's Western Extension, specifically page 23. Butte, Anaconda and Pacific is still running today and happily using BNSF and UP. Haven't seen any online complaints about their rates or operation.
Butte, Anaconda and Pacific is still running today and happily using BNSF and UP. Haven't seen any online complaints about their rates or operation.
Erik_MagI suggest you read Stan Johnson's The Milwaukee Road's Western Extension, specifically page 23.
I'm not going to read that, you know why? You can google the history of the Anaconda mining company and not a single mention of the Milwaukee Road or any Anaconda mining interest driving the company to build the PCE. If was true and not just one persons opinion, it would be part of the written history of Anaconda Mining or at least of Montana.........nowhere to be found.
https://www.up.com/customers/shortline/profiles_a-c/bap/index.htm
PNWRMNMI do not understand what you think is wrong with rebuliding cars under an equipment trust. Will you please explain?
There is nothing wrong with it and I made no such statement. I stated they had a propensity to use it which I should have said use almost exclusively and crowding out new car purchases.
This is what I got out of Ploss's book The Nation Pays Again. I've posted this before but it's really worth reiterating 'cause it's quite interesting.
When the Milwaukee Road emerged from bankruptcy, they did something unusual from an investment perspective.
The Company paid off their debts by issuing a bunch of preferred shares. What made these shares unusual was that they had voting rights whereas most preferred shares don't.
It was stipulated in the stock sale that if the Company failed to pay the dividends on these shares for more than two consecutive quarters, the preferred shareholders had the right to call a meeting of the board and oust the management.
This was something like a "poison pill" that helped destroy the Company. Top level management and board members naturally would go to any ends to keep their jobs so when money began to get tight in the late 1950s, they started taking money out of track maintenance to keep paying the dividends. The New York Central and the Pennsy and later Penn Central made a similar error although those were not preferred shares with those kinds of voting rights in that case.
As business continued to deteriorate, it turned into a vicious cycle. It became more and more difficult to find money to pay the dividends with and finally they were performing virtually NO maintenance west of the Twin Cities.
Presumably, management erroneously assumed that railroad troubles in the post World War II era would be temporary and fleeting. Alas, they were not. America came dangerously close to losing our privately owned rail system. In the end there was somewhat of a happy ending but not for the Milwaukee or the Rock Island line.
CMStPnPAll the branch lines west of the Mississippi was another issue as well as their propensity to build and rebuild their freight cars under equipment trusts. The PCE was not the only expensive choice they made that did not pan out very well.
I do not understand what you think is wrong with rebuliding cars under an equipment trust. Will you please explain?
Mac
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