Euclid CMStPnP Euclid Mr. Sol’s information was not valid and so it was deemed to be disinformation by Kalmbach. I disagree. When you post about a prominent Trustee and Lawyer in Chicago, Illinois got an ulcer because he was lied to by so and so...............el zippo in the public record on just that item and no attribution. Potential issue with allowing that to be published but that is just my opinion. If you really want to know the why ask a MOD via PM vs the public specuation. The answer from the Mod could suprise all of us. Could be just Mr. Sol deleting his own posts which he had second thoughts about. I agree the thread has diverted enough down this path. Time to move on. Just to clarify: The sentence by me that you quoted above is only half of the full sentence that I wrote. Because of that, the meaning of the quoted sentence is not the meaning of my full sentence. Contrary to your quoted version of my sentence, I never said that Mr. Sol’s information was not valid. This was my full sentence: “While we don’t know the reason for this removal of one side of the debate, it strongly suggests that that there was a popular opinion that Mr. Sol’s information was not valid and so it was deemed to be disinformation by Kalmbach.” This is your quote of that sentence: “Mr. Sol’s information was not valid, and so it was deemed to be disinformation by Kalmbach.” Also to this point that you made above: “Could be just Mr. Sol deleting his own posts which he had second thoughts about.” He could have asked the moderator to delete his posts, but he alone could not have done it because it is not possible technically. But aside from that, I believe that if Mr. Sol decided to remove all of his posts with the help of the moderator, he would have told us why he was doing so. And I certainly can’t see him removing all his posts for the reason that he suddenly had second thoughts about them. On the contrary, he always seems to have an uncommonly firm confidence and commitment to his thoughts and statements.
CMStPnP Euclid Mr. Sol’s information was not valid and so it was deemed to be disinformation by Kalmbach. I disagree. When you post about a prominent Trustee and Lawyer in Chicago, Illinois got an ulcer because he was lied to by so and so...............el zippo in the public record on just that item and no attribution. Potential issue with allowing that to be published but that is just my opinion. If you really want to know the why ask a MOD via PM vs the public specuation. The answer from the Mod could suprise all of us. Could be just Mr. Sol deleting his own posts which he had second thoughts about. I agree the thread has diverted enough down this path. Time to move on.
Euclid Mr. Sol’s information was not valid and so it was deemed to be disinformation by Kalmbach.
I disagree. When you post about a prominent Trustee and Lawyer in Chicago, Illinois got an ulcer because he was lied to by so and so...............el zippo in the public record on just that item and no attribution. Potential issue with allowing that to be published but that is just my opinion. If you really want to know the why ask a MOD via PM vs the public specuation. The answer from the Mod could suprise all of us. Could be just Mr. Sol deleting his own posts which he had second thoughts about. I agree the thread has diverted enough down this path. Time to move on.
Well, Euclid, there are very few members or moderators on here who actually are supporters of the marketplace of ideas. So step out of the current *party line* and prepare to be squashed. You have seen that for years on railroad crossings, safety appliances and other topics where a contrarian thread gets halted or even expunged after someone goes crying to mama moderator, "Please stop them!"
SD60MAC9500 Both BN and MILW traverse(d) through significant lignite/sub-bituminous/bituminous deposits in eastern/central Montana. Milwaukee failed to find captive bulk traffic. Also consider there was ample time to develop this traffic before the state of Montana put a severance tax on coal beginning in 1975. I imagine this tax is what helped push the coal boom into Wyoming for the most part. With enactment of The Clean Air Act had MILW capitalized on Montana deposits. They probably could have provided some competition with BN/CNW PRB.
Both BN and MILW traverse(d) through significant lignite/sub-bituminous/bituminous deposits in eastern/central Montana. Milwaukee failed to find captive bulk traffic. Also consider there was ample time to develop this traffic before the state of Montana put a severance tax on coal beginning in 1975. I imagine this tax is what helped push the coal boom into Wyoming for the most part. With enactment of The Clean Air Act had MILW capitalized on Montana deposits. They probably could have provided some competition with BN/CNW PRB.
I think you are right on the part I underlined. The Milw had a pretty good profile for getting the coal in the Roundup area to back east, but the track was in pretty bad shape. If the severance tax had not been passed or had a lower rate for underground mines (e.g. Roundup), there's a reasonable chance that the Milw line east of Roundup would have survived for a few more decades.
I do remember hearing some of the Milw employees in Miles City talking about the Roundup coal prospects back in the 73 to 75 timeframe.
n012944 charlie hebdo Is this the sort of forum members want? Yes. If someone was banned for going personal on accounts, like Sol did on Greyhounds, myself and others, then yes they should not be allowed back. Regardless of what screen name they post under.
charlie hebdo Is this the sort of forum members want?
Is this the sort of forum members want?
Yes. If someone was banned for going personal on accounts, like Sol did on Greyhounds, myself and others, then yes they should not be allowed back. Regardless of what screen name they post under.
Which is why he more than likely got banned again...Contrary to my earlier comment. It was in this threads best interest it would appear. Previous personal searches on forum members being used to attack them. Might as well get rid of him before it heads down the same path again..
An "expensive model collector"
You are simply wrong. Only a moderator can remove a post without a trace. If you remove your list, you can only edit. You delete all your words but leave the word deleted or even a period.
If the moderators removed Sol and his posts because of fear of lawsuits from trustees of ~40 years ago, let them come forth and tell that to all of us.
EuclidMr. Sol’s information was not valid and so it was deemed to be disinformation by Kalmbach.
I have never minded learning from Michael Sol, just as I have never minded reading Mark Meyer. The point of both is that they have done enormous research and provided even larger troves of source material, nearly immediately available, that would be impossible to find otherwise.
And yes, to have the content deleted is high-handed, small-minded, and short-sighted... in my opinion. I never banned anyone for discourse, although I spent considerable time first editing out vitriol and then, after the world changed, convincing them to change content that was not in the right "collegial spirit", shall we say?
And one more thing: we have standing to criticize the current style of moderation, as it were.
Leo_AmesModerators don't ever check the forum unless a post has been reported? That doesn't sound right to me.
It is not correct and the current Moderator stated so. If you doubt what I say you can always PM the Moderator and ask. It's not a state secret.
OvermodThe problem with taking up the PCE discussion is that it Is one of those 'timeless topics' (like discussions of compounds vs. simples or the benefits of equalized driver axles) where the same arguments go forward and backwards, catnip to the same people, and there is never any 'synthesis'. (In addition, like discussions of graffiti, hobos and politics, discourse among friends starts degrading... as here.)
So you say, but I did not see any examples of discourse degradation. Examples?
Perhaps for you, the discussion was repetitive of what you saw before from M. Sol. For some like me who never saw the earlier exchange, it was a lively and informative discussion, taking the boredom out of a cold mid-winter day.
The problem with taking up the PCE discussion is that it Is one of those 'timeless topics' (like discussions of compounds vs. simples or the benefits of equalized driver axles) where the same arguments go forward and backwards, catnip to the same people, and there is never any 'synthesis'. (In addition, like discussions of graffiti, hobos and politics, discourse among friends starts degrading... as here.)
The PCE made sense to people with authority and money at the time, when electrification and the promise of effective 'express' traffic for things like silk were novel and alive. We might compare the development of the Virginian, in which Henry Huttleston Rogers and Standard Oil-derived money were enabling factors, or the Key West extension with a similar perceived raison d'etre.
That its enormous construction debt was kept 'on the books' through the critical times the line might have been brought into better shape in various ways is a major consideration; it does help to consider who the people who would have been discomnoded by that were. There is little doubt that by the early '70s (1) the opportunities were interesting, and (2) regardless of how wealthy the railroad might have been, there was no way to pay for even the deferred maintenance to bring the railroad to the necessary level to sustain the opportunities.
In a sense, the endgame here was very similar to the CASO, an even more superior routing that came to disappear when no one wanted it competitive...
I've noted in other contexts that there are similar places that changing circumstances made investments, even with superior construction and financial support, wither and die. The Atglen & Susquehanna and the Lackawanna Cutoff are two fairly dramatic examples. Imagine if the Keystone Air Line or the extended Sam Rea Line had actually been built as surveyed, with its massive fills and bridges and two-mile-plus tunnels built only to 100mph speeds and with contemporary track centers.
CMStPnP Imagine if Milwaukee had money to partner with BN on PRB coal haulage and if BN was willing to take Milwaukee on as a partner? Imagine if Milwaukee had money to rebuild parts of the PCE to better operating parameters? Imagine if Milwaukee spun off or sold a large chunk of it's branch lines in the East prior to 1955 and used the money on the PCE.
Union Pacific would have put up a good fight to keep the Milwaukee out. Not only that the Milwaukee would not have needed to partner with BN. Both BN and MILW traverse(d) through significant lignite/sub-bituminous/bituminous deposits in eastern/central Montana. Milwaukee failed to find captive bulk traffic. Also consider there was ample time to develop this traffic before the state of Montana put a severance tax on coal beginning in 1975. I imagine this tax is what helped push the coal boom into Wyoming for the most part. With enactment of The Clean Air Act had MILW capitalized on Montana deposits. They probably could have provided some competition with BN/CNW PRB.
Euclid adkrr64 Can we please limit the discussion to the stated topic - the Milwaukee Road Pacific Coast Extension? If people would like to discuss forum moderation rules and how those rules have affected individuals over the years, then by all means create a new topic and have at it. In my opinion, the original topic of this thread has been completely destroyed. The topic presented only one side of a long running and contentious popular debate over whether or not building the Pacific Extension was a mistake in judgement by the management of the CM&StP. In the first post here, this viewpoint was put forth by one comprehensive paper by Mark Meyer. Then when Michael Sol entered the discussion with the other side of the debate and posted a wealth of information supporting the opposing viewpoint of Mark Meyer, all of Mr. Sol’s posts were removed from the thread with no explanation. While we don’t know the reason for this removal of one side of the debate, it strongly suggests that that there was a popular opinion that Mr. Sol’s information was not valid and so it was deemed to be disinformation by Kalmbach. Even though this has not been proven, in my opinion, if it is true, it not only was unfair to Mr. Sol, but also to Mark Meyer. This is because the apparent authoritarian removal of Michael Sol’s viewpoint without any explanation seems so heavy handed, that it actually weakens the case made by Mark Meyer; implying that it cannot stand on its own merit without censoring opposing views. In my opinion we would all be best served if both viewpoint were allowed to stand.
adkrr64 Can we please limit the discussion to the stated topic - the Milwaukee Road Pacific Coast Extension? If people would like to discuss forum moderation rules and how those rules have affected individuals over the years, then by all means create a new topic and have at it.
Can we please limit the discussion to the stated topic - the Milwaukee Road Pacific Coast Extension? If people would like to discuss forum moderation rules and how those rules have affected individuals over the years, then by all means create a new topic and have at it.
Exactly and well-stated, Euclid. There are pros and cons to the PCE. The nature of history is multiple opposing interpretations of events, with varying and changing degrees to certitude to any single view. But apparently not on here with a Brave New World policy.
charlie hebdo Backshop charlie hebdo So s series of "whaddaboutisms" to deflect from my original question/request. What did Mr. Sol do in this thread that some member complained about and then a moderator decided to delete Sol's posts. What TOS was violated? Is this the sort of forum members want? We can't answer your question because it's all supposition on your part. You may think that happened, but you have no evidence to support it. It is a fact that the moderators acted. And contrary to what CMStPnP said, the moderators do not check the forums. That was stated clearly on here before. So there must have been a post or series of posts that were reported. What TOS was violated? Posts cannot be removed by a poster, such as Sol or Miningman or Wanswheel without a trace, only by the moderators. But since you disliked Sol's posts, this sort of club censure US fine by you.
Backshop charlie hebdo So s series of "whaddaboutisms" to deflect from my original question/request. What did Mr. Sol do in this thread that some member complained about and then a moderator decided to delete Sol's posts. What TOS was violated? Is this the sort of forum members want? We can't answer your question because it's all supposition on your part. You may think that happened, but you have no evidence to support it.
charlie hebdo So s series of "whaddaboutisms" to deflect from my original question/request. What did Mr. Sol do in this thread that some member complained about and then a moderator decided to delete Sol's posts. What TOS was violated? Is this the sort of forum members want?
So s series of "whaddaboutisms" to deflect from my original question/request. What did Mr. Sol do in this thread that some member complained about and then a moderator decided to delete Sol's posts. What TOS was violated? Is this the sort of forum members want?
We can't answer your question because it's all supposition on your part. You may think that happened, but you have no evidence to support it.
It is a fact that the moderators acted. And contrary to what CMStPnP said, the moderators do not check the forums. That was stated clearly on here before. So there must have been a post or series of posts that were reported. What TOS was violated? Posts cannot be removed by a poster, such as Sol or Miningman or Wanswheel without a trace, only by the moderators. But since you disliked Sol's posts, this sort of club censure US fine by you.
Bad investments on the tail of speculative bubbles are par for the course. The pitch was clearly grabbing the Twin Cities Hill Lines interchange traffic and keeping it in house. Bad management and under-capitalization created costly routings to nowhere, that a modest core network (and good grain years) were insufficient to cross subsidize.
This Trains mainline tonnage map for '71-73 tells the tale. No tonnage means no revenue, and no borrowing against future revenues to improve the property. This was typical for mainlines abandoned in that era. As detailed in the link:
"One federal study published in the ’70s noted that routes below a threshold of 20 MGT had significantly higher maintenance and operating costs per ton-mile and that there were far more miles of track below 20 MGT than above it."
Re-examining the historical record is important. New facts come to light, a modern lens may change the historical focus. But the PCE was, and will remain, a bad investment.
charlie hebdoAnd contrary to what CMStPnP said, the moderators do not check the forums. That was stated clearly on here before. So there must have been a post or series of posts that were reported.
Moderators don't ever check the forum unless a post has been reported? That doesn't sound right to me.
It is a fact that the moderators acted. And contrary to what CMStPnP said, the moderators do not check the forums. That was stated clearly on here before. So there must have been a post or series of posts that were reported. What TOS was violated? Posts cannot be removed by a poster, such as Sol or Miningman or Wanswheel without a trace, only by the moderators. But since you disliked Sol's posts, this sort of club censure is just peachy keen by you?
(Been having issues posting this)
greyhounds Lithonia Operator I read that in 1977 everything west of Miles City MT was relinquished or abandoned by the MILW. In simple terms, how much, if any, of that trackage ever saw trains again? It was 1980. Some few track miles west of Miles City were picked up by new short lines. BN took some mileage centered in South Dakota. The triangle of track linking Chicago, the Twin Cities, and Kansas City is now part of the CP and in play big time with the KCS merger. But, in general, the Milwaukee Road west of Miles City was ripped out. Actually, they ripped out another 45 miles east of Miles City a few years later.
Lithonia Operator I read that in 1977 everything west of Miles City MT was relinquished or abandoned by the MILW. In simple terms, how much, if any, of that trackage ever saw trains again?
It was 1980. Some few track miles west of Miles City were picked up by new short lines. BN took some mileage centered in South Dakota. The triangle of track linking Chicago, the Twin Cities, and Kansas City is now part of the CP and in play big time with the KCS merger.
But, in general, the Milwaukee Road west of Miles City was ripped out. Actually, they ripped out another 45 miles east of Miles City a few years later.
A few additions to the above timeline...
The Milwaukee abondoned the line east of Miles City about April 2nd 1982 (when the Falklands war started), news making the front age of the Miles City Star (was there for my grandmother's funeral). IIRC, the State of South Dakota bought the track and leased it to the BN. The 45 miles mentioned by Greyhounds was the Milw line between Miles City and Terry - the ony track connection between the Milw line and the NP line along the Yellowstone river was the interchange track just east of Miles City - switch points faced west on the NP line and east on the NP line. A connection was later made at Terry, which then allowed for the Milw track to be taken up.
Facts? Source?
Overmod SD60MAC9500 greyhounds charlie hebdo Again please specify what Sol did? Well, I didn't complain. But I didn't like it that Sol was allowed back on here. To my understanding he was thrown off some years ago for his frequent personal attacks. And I was one subject to them. He researched me and used my involvement in Greyhound racing, which I am proud of, to viciously and falsely attack me. He similarly attacked others. Ok that's going way too far... No need to search someone's personal life. That's pretty low... Forum member miningman quit and deleted his Kalmbach accounts because another member went so far as to contact the university at which he taught to try to get him dismissed. That is disturbingly low.
SD60MAC9500 greyhounds charlie hebdo Again please specify what Sol did? Well, I didn't complain. But I didn't like it that Sol was allowed back on here. To my understanding he was thrown off some years ago for his frequent personal attacks. And I was one subject to them. He researched me and used my involvement in Greyhound racing, which I am proud of, to viciously and falsely attack me. He similarly attacked others. Ok that's going way too far... No need to search someone's personal life. That's pretty low...
greyhounds charlie hebdo Again please specify what Sol did? Well, I didn't complain. But I didn't like it that Sol was allowed back on here. To my understanding he was thrown off some years ago for his frequent personal attacks. And I was one subject to them. He researched me and used my involvement in Greyhound racing, which I am proud of, to viciously and falsely attack me. He similarly attacked others.
charlie hebdo Again please specify what Sol did?
Well, I didn't complain. But I didn't like it that Sol was allowed back on here.
To my understanding he was thrown off some years ago for his frequent personal attacks. And I was one subject to them. He researched me and used my involvement in Greyhound racing, which I am proud of, to viciously and falsely attack me. He similarly attacked others.
Ok that's going way too far... No need to search someone's personal life. That's pretty low...
Forum member miningman quit and deleted his Kalmbach accounts because another member went so far as to contact the university at which he taught to try to get him dismissed. That is disturbingly low.
The member that went that far shoud be dismissed from the forum at the very least.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BackshopDidn't miningman's departure have something to do with continuing to repost stuff from wanswheel or something?
Lithonia OperatorI read that in 1977 everything west of Miles City MT was relinquished or abandoned by the MILW. In simple terms, how much, if any, of that trackage ever saw trains again?
But, in general, the Milwaukee Road west of Miles City was ripped out. Actually, they ripped out another 45 miles east of Miles City a few years later. The railroad went broke three times in 60 years. That's a very strong indication that it wasn't needed nor financially viable.
Past time to repurpose the scarce economic resources. Which is what eventually happened.
Likewise. But I appreciated miningman's posts. I would hope that whoever went to the University gets their just discipline for overreacting to the blog.
Didn't miningman's departure have something to do with continuing to repost stuff from wanswheel or something?
Good thing I am retired - nobody can go to my employer.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.