Way to go, entitled self-qualified Wet'suwet'en sympathizers!
And way to go, triggered media, in providing a nifty set of details for wannabe copycats to cause trouble for railroads everywhere!
OvermodAnd way to go, triggered media, in providing a nifty set of details for wannabe copycats to cause trouble for railroads everywhere!
Like the atom bomb, I'm sure the instructions are available on-line somewhere.
If they're trying to get rid of the tracks, I know of some people who were successful here... Just need some money with which to buy some political influence...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 Overmod And way to go, triggered media, in providing a nifty set of details for wannabe copycats to cause trouble for railroads everywhere! Like the atom bomb, I'm sure the instructions are available on-line somewhere. If they're trying to get rid of the tracks, I know of some people who were successful here... Just need some money with which to buy some political influence...
Overmod And way to go, triggered media, in providing a nifty set of details for wannabe copycats to cause trouble for railroads everywhere!
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Aren't these the same type people which just a couple months ago one of our resident loose-cannons was insisting that we must embrace as 'the grandma next door', until such time as they actually are convicted?
samfp1943FTA:"...“On 10 occasions, shunts were placed in areas that disrupt the crossing guards where the tracks cross streets, so vehicles could have tried to cross the tracks unaware of the oncoming train. On the night of October 11, 2020, multiple shunts were placed in three different locations in Whatcom and Skagit Counties. The shunts triggered an automatic breaking system on a train that was transporting hazardous and combustible material. The emergency breaking then caused a portion of the train to decouple from the engine. Decoupling has the potential to cause a derailment—in this case—of tanker cars of flammable gas in a residential area.."
Why would shunting the rails cause vehicles to try to cross the track unaware that a train was coming? Wouldn't shunting the rails activate the crossing signals?
Why would shunting the rails cause the train to go into emergency braking?
Well. I don't know what to say.
I'm not sure if these two entitled, self-absorbed, spoiled brats need to do some serious jail time or just need a good spanking.
Thank God they haven't killed anyone with their foolishness.
One of those web blogs is ultra right wing. The other features info on spouses ofBiden appointees. I would suggest both are biased and likely unreliable sources of information, as opposed to rightist disinformation. If progressive citations are condemned as too political, then ditto for the rightist posts.
EuclidWhy would shunting the rails cause vehicles to try to cross the track unaware that a train was coming? Wouldn't shunting the rails activate the crossing signals?
I am speculating, but after sitting at the activated crossing for 5 minutes with no train appearing, an imprudent motorist might assume it's safe to proceed?
Overmod Way to go, entitled self-qualified Wet'suwet'en sympathizers! And way to go, triggered media, in providing a nifty set of details for wannabe copycats to cause trouble for railroads everywhere!
Um the how-to details were included in the NTSB safety report on the signal maintainer that forgot to remove the shunt in Illiniois leading to a Amtrak collision with a passenger car. The details were rather specific as well. You can google the word "electrical shunt" and figure it out with the diagrams provided.
samfp1943On the night of October 11, 2020, multiple shunts were placed in three different locations in Whatcom and Skagit Counties. The shunts triggered an automatic breaking system on a train that was transporting hazardous and combustible material. The emergency breaking then caused a portion of the train to decouple from the engine. Decoupling has the potential to cause a derailment—in this case—of tanker cars of flammable gas in a residential area.."
That's the real issue, not so much what shunts might to to grade crossing protection, although an incident or accident there would be serious enough.
I'm guessing shunts could cause a problem with trackside signals as well, although the professional railroaders here would have to sound off on that possibility. I'll admit I don't know much on that subject.
EuclidWhy would shunting the rails cause vehicles to try to cross the track unaware that a train was coming? Wouldn't shunting the rails activate the crossing signals? Why would shunting the rails cause the train to go into emergency braking?
Even though it is basic electronics. Don't you think a specific answer to this question in a public forum would be rather irresponsible?
CMStPnP Overmod Way to go, entitled self-qualified Wet'suwet'en sympathizers! And way to go, triggered media, in providing a nifty set of details for wannabe copycats to cause trouble for railroads everywhere! Um the how-to details were included in the NTSB safety report on the signal maintainer that forgot to remove the shunt in Illiniois leading to a Amtrak collision with a passenger car. The details were rather specific as well. You can google the word "electrical shunt" and figure it out with the diagrams provided.
That was a jumper in a signal cabinet that he forgot to remove. A shunt drops a signal relay. A jumper is used to keep a relay energized, even though the track circuit is being shunted. There are legitimate reasons to use jumpers, none of which applied in the McLean, IL situation.
CMStPnP Euclid Why would shunting the rails cause vehicles to try to cross the track unaware that a train was coming? Wouldn't shunting the rails activate the crossing signals? Why would shunting the rails cause the train to go into emergency braking? Even though it is basic electronics. Don't you think a specific answer to this question in a public forum would be rather irresponsible?
Euclid Why would shunting the rails cause vehicles to try to cross the track unaware that a train was coming? Wouldn't shunting the rails activate the crossing signals? Why would shunting the rails cause the train to go into emergency braking?
No, it is basic public information, and it is already in the news story. And my question was rhetorical. Shunting the rails would activate the crossing signals. And activating the signals would not cause vehicle drivers to become unaware of a train coming because their whole point of activation is make drivers aware of a train coming.
Overall, my point is that the story gives no indication of how any of this could accomplish terrorism. But it certainly would be a crime.
You have an oil by rail train moving at track speed comes up to a signal that they shunted. Signal prior was green crew thinks this one also will be green. Instead it drops in front of them to RED crew throws out the anchor and prays that the train stays on the tracks. We have seen in the past what happens to Bakken shale crude oil what happens when it derails. Lord help the area if instead of oil it was a manifest train with cholrine and a couple tankers full of hydrocholric acid. Why if those mixed you get mustard gas which is considered by international treaty a WMD. That is why these charges are considered terrorism.
Shadow the Cats owner You have an oil by rail train moving at track speed comes up to a signal that they shunted. Signal prior was green crew thinks this one also will be green. Instead it drops in front of them to RED crew throws out the anchor and prays that the train stays on the tracks. We have seen in the past what happens to Bakken shale crude oil what happens when it derails. Lord help the area if instead of oil it was a manifest train with cholrine and a couple tankers full of hydrocholric acid. Why if those mixed you get mustard gas which is considered by international treaty a WMD. That is why these charges are considered terrorism.
charlie hebdo One of those web blogs is ultra right wing. The other features info on spouses ofBiden appointees. I would suggest both are biased and likely unreliable sources of information, as opposed to rightist disinformation. If progressive citations are condemned as too political, then ditto for the rightist posts.
The sources are indeed suspect. They spell braking as "breaking." Those so-called journalists are loosers.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Euclid Why would shunting the rails cause the train to go into emergency braking?
It is not that hard to figure out.
An "expensive model collector"
n012944 Euclid Why would shunting the rails cause the train to go into emergency braking? It is not that hard to figure out.
Euc is displaying his lack of comprehension of the comments he has made in other threads.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Shadow the Cats ownerSignal prior was green crew thinks this one also will be green. Instead it drops in front of them to RED crew throws out the anchor and prays that the train stays on the tracks.
Yeah, no, that's not how you would handle that.
Nice little bit of fear mongering, though.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Shadow the Cats owner Signal prior was green crew thinks this one also will be green. Instead it drops in front of them to RED crew throws out the anchor and prays that the train stays on the tracks. Yeah, no, that's not how you would handle that. Nice little bit of fear mongering, though.
Shadow the Cats owner Signal prior was green crew thinks this one also will be green. Instead it drops in front of them to RED crew throws out the anchor and prays that the train stays on the tracks.
Even when making a maximum non-emergency application - sometimes the train has other ideas with a 'kicker'. The 'kicker' can also happen with a minimum reduction too. That is one reason the carriers are emphasizing the use of Dynamic Braking.
Paul Milenkovic charlie hebdo One of those web blogs is ultra right wing. The other features info on spouses ofBiden appointees. I would suggest both are biased and likely unreliable sources of information, as opposed to rightist disinformation. If progressive citations are condemned as too political, then ditto for the rightist posts. The sources are indeed suspect. They spell braking as "breaking." Those so-called journalists are loosers.
BaltACDEven when making a maximum non-emergency application - sometimes the train has other ideas with a 'kicker'. The 'kicker' can also happen with a minimum reduction too. That is one reason the carriers are emphasizing the use of Dynamic Braking.
Dynamic forces can play hell with trains if the train makeup isn't great.
Just to bring this topic back into focus....My point was to note the potential that was being laid down by thuse two women. They were apparently spured to action by their anti-social affiliations(?). Their course of action was apparently,only partially thought out... I would doubt t they had ecer witnessed a train wreck up close(?).
Within the linked stories were some of the details as to what events had been found to have occured in the two counties (41 seperate events) of attempting to cause a derailment by establishing 'shunts'.
There were mentions of near-by grade crossings in the areas; and possibly, the possibility of causing a failure in a track circuit. Which mght cascade into a derailment, aided by a malfunction of a train's PTC (?).
Not to mention that local police, and railroad police, were watching the areas by placing game cameras around. Actions which would preclude local railfans from their normal activities(?); and practicing caution around those railroads. In strange times, one needs a healthy dose of situational awareness.
To satisfy some here who complain the stories are from right-wing sources and therefore unreliable, here's a link to a completely unbiased (!) source with the basics of the story.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/02/us/train-shunt-washington.html
The facts, whether they are from a right-wing source or not, are that two women were arrested who were doing something that possibly could lead to injuries or death.
Right-wing, left-wing, or Martians reporting this, it doesn't matter. People doing this should have the book thrown at them.
York1 John
I was a little intrigued with the stories of the McKinley statues/memorials in Buffalo and Chicago being vandalized on Thanksgiving day....which coincidently also included a car ramming our replica fort commemorating the first European stronghold in the region.
The "Landback" movement I believe some are calling it?
Shadow the Cats ownerLord help the area if instead of oil it was a manifest train with cholrine and a couple tankers full of hydrocholric acid. Why if those mixed you get mustard gas which is considered by international treaty a WMD.
You can't further perchlorinate HCl with ambient gaseous chlorine. Mustard gas has a key sulfur, so unless magickally transmuting something you'd never get it from those two chemicals; as it turns out, exposing sulfuric acid to chlorine won't get you to any of the vesicants either.
Best to stick with the phosgene, chloramine, cyanides and other things more promptly and immediately generated in wrecks caused by such people. Those are often, if anything, worse than LoSt agents if it is sufficiently cold outside... as now.
Deleted
Overmod gaseous chlorine
Damned deadly stuff in it's own right, as the lads on the Western Front in 1915 would be more than willing to tell you.
CMStPnPUm the how-to details were included in the NTSB safety report on the signal maintainer that forgot to remove the shunt in Illiniois leading to a Amtrak collision with a passenger car. The details were rather specific as well. You can google the word "electrical shunt" and figure it out with the diagrams provided.
There are probably words, but I can't think of any right now...
(Seriously -- would copycats be reading technical articles to get ideas, or stuff served to their social media by eyeball-hungry algorithms?)
I deal with MSDS sheets on a daily basis. I have Chemtrec on speed dial on both my work phone and my cell. On a off week I'm dealing with 50 separate hazmat shipments from the tank fleet. That doesn't include the van side which can throw in another 100 or so. Next week for me is learning the 2021 regulation changes for hazmat shipment. To say anymore I dread dealing with regulatory officials is putting it mildly.
We're dealing with a pandemic waivers on the HOS regulation and all of this while trying to haul some of the nastiest things man produces on a regular basis on a daily basis. Some of my tank division drivers are averaging 35k miles a month solo right now. They are running 16 to 18 hours a day trying to keep the plants supplied with whatever they need. In my van division my top team cracked 48k miles last month on the waiver. Normally my drivers do half those numbers. To say I'm getting worried about them is an understatement. As for the people that did what they are accused of doing. My choice is bury them under the freaking jail.
Overmod CMStPnP Um the how-to details were included in the NTSB safety report on the signal maintainer that forgot to remove the shunt in Illiniois leading to a Amtrak collision with a passenger car. The details were rather specific as well. You can google the word "electrical shunt" and figure it out with the diagrams provided. And you post this specific way to find out how do do mischief and then rag on Euclid only a moment later about speculating about shunts on a public forum? There are probably words, but I can't think of any right now... (Seriously -- would copycats be reading technical articles to get ideas, or stuff served to their social media by eyeball-hungry algorithms?)
CMStPnP Um the how-to details were included in the NTSB safety report on the signal maintainer that forgot to remove the shunt in Illiniois leading to a Amtrak collision with a passenger car. The details were rather specific as well. You can google the word "electrical shunt" and figure it out with the diagrams provided.
And you post this specific way to find out how do do mischief and then rag on Euclid only a moment later about speculating about shunts on a public forum?
Shadow the Cats owner ...Some of my tank division drivers are averaging 35k miles a month solo right now. They are running 16 to 18 hours a day trying to keep the plants supplied with whatever they need. In my van division my top team cracked 48k miles last month on the waiver...
Murphy Siding Shadow the Cats owner ...Some of my tank division drivers are averaging 35k miles a month solo right now. They are running 16 to 18 hours a day trying to keep the plants supplied with whatever they need. In my van division my top team cracked 48k miles last month on the waiver... I know that trucking is your deal and that you don't like being challenged about anything having to do with trucking, but 35,000 miles a month "average" seems pretty high.
I know that trucking is your deal and that you don't like being challenged about anything having to do with trucking, but 35,000 miles a month "average" seems pretty high.
When she says drivers, is she meaning 'team' drivers'? As 35K miles per month equals 1129 miles per day of a 31 day month - and at 50 MPH average that is the truck being on the move for 22.25 hours, or thereabouts, each of the 31 days. Pretty good for a 24 hour day especially with HOS regulations. That 48K team would have been on the road 31 hours a day at 50 MPH average, or driving 64.5 MPH for each and every 24 hours of a 31 day month.
York1To satisfy some here who complain the stories are from right-wing sources and therefore unreliable, here's a link to a completely unbiased (!) source with the basics of the story.
Thats not going to change the behavior.
According to the complaint they did it to disrupt construction of an oil pipeline being built in Canada.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/press-release/file/1341141/download
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
It is not hard to come up with plausible explanations. My only point is that the article leaves out any explanation. So I ask the question so someone may chime in with a plausible explanation. When I read the first article, I had the impression that the two women were using shunts to affect road traffic by manipulating the crossing signals.
Now, after reading several more articles, I conclude that they were attempting to affect train traffic by tampering with train signal indications. It is reported that 41 shunts have been discovered by BNSF since last January. I think it is likely that they only inadvertently activated some grade crossing signals when attempting to change aspects of train signals.
I also speculate that 41 instances of placed shunts was carried out by more than just the two women cited in the news, and that the perpetrators were working on a plan larger than just placing shunts that would stop trains.
BaltACD Murphy Siding Shadow the Cats owner ...Some of my tank division drivers are averaging 35k miles a month solo right now. They are running 16 to 18 hours a day trying to keep the plants supplied with whatever they need. In my van division my top team cracked 48k miles last month on the waiver... I know that trucking is your deal and that you don't like being challenged about anything having to do with trucking, but 35,000 miles a month "average" seems pretty high. When she says drivers, is she meaning 'team' drivers'? As 35K miles per month equals 1129 miles per day of a 31 day month - and at 50 MPH average that is the truck being on the move for 22.25 hours, or thereabouts, each of the 31 days. Pretty good for a 24 hour day especially with HOS regulations. That 48K team would have been on the road 31 hours a day at 50 MPH average, or driving 64.5 MPH for each and every 24 hours of a 31 day month.
Euclid ...Now, after reading several more articles, I conclude that they were attempting to affect train traffic by tampering with train signal indications. It is reported that 41 shunts have been discovered by BNSF since last January. I think it is likely that they only inadvertently activated some grade crossing signals when attempting to change aspects of train signals. I also speculate that 41 instances of placed shunts was carried out by more than just the two women cited in the news, and that the perpetrators were working on a plan larger than just placing shunts that would stop trains.
...Now, after reading several more articles, I conclude that they were attempting to affect train traffic by tampering with train signal indications. It is reported that 41 shunts have been discovered by BNSF since last January. I think it is likely that they only inadvertently activated some grade crossing signals when attempting to change aspects of train signals.
I can chime in here with a bit of twisted humor. When I was a kid we lived across the street from the Long Island Rail Road in Garden City, NY. It was an electric, third rail commuter line. There were two grade crossings, one on either side of the Garden City commuter rail station, protected with automatic, half barrier gates and flashing signals.
Well, just a few feet shy of the road, each rail had an insulated rail joint in it. Both sides of the road had these.
I can no longer recall how in the world I discovered this, but I found out that if I placed a quarter (or some other small conductor of electricity) over the insulated rail joint it somehow "shunted" the crossing signals. The gates would come down, and stay down for about a minute then just go back up again leaving drivers totally bewildered!
I demonstrated this to a couple of my friends and they, too, were amazed and started doing it themselves! It was a GREAT prank! It was REALLY fun until one day I got stopped by a cop. Suddenly it wasn't so fun anymore. I tried to give him a bunch of B.S. and he let me go after he took down my name and address and all my personal info. "We'll be gettin in touch with your parents", he told me.
Guess what? I never heard anymore about this and a few months later we moved to Arizona and that was that. I tried this on a few other railroads and it didn't work. Only on the Long Island. I don't know if it had something to do with it being an electric line or what.
Would I try this again today? Of course not. I was only 12 years old, for cryin' out loud.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
A crossing with a "hard" circuit would have the gates stay down as long as the circuit was shunted.
A crossing with a "predictive" circuit would have the gates go down when first shunted, but they would go back up when no motion was detected after a certain period of time. Block occupancy circuits don't work that way, however, so theoretically, the block would still show occupied.
tree68A crossing with a "hard" circuit would have the gates stay down as long as the circuit was shunted. A crossing with a "predictive" circuit would have the gates go down when first shunted, but they would go back up when no motion was detected after a certain period of time. Block occupancy circuits don't work that way, however, so theoretically, the block would still show occupied.
Some 'hard' circuits are equipped with timers - after a set amount of time, without other circuits having been activated, the gates will time out and go to the up position. Circuits for crossing protection in many cases are 'tuned' to the local conditions that exist where the protection is installed.
As a practical matter from the Dispatcher's Office perspective - there are generally two ways that broken rails get detected - a train CTC territory operates through a track segment between control points and the track circuit stays on after the train has exited the segment. The second way is to get a report of crossing protection operating in a 'dark' track segment. In both cases Signal Maintainers will be dispatched to investigate the cause.
Murphy Siding Those drivers running that hard are on the HOS WAIVER from the Federal government. That means they are hauling vital supplies needed for the Pandemic to keep vital industries open. They are hauling chemicals to paper plants water treatment plants medical equipment PPE for hospitals food things of that nature. The drivers in my fleet that ARE NOT waivered are doing the fleet average of around 13K a month solo which is up almost 2K a month over last year. Why less drivers overall in the fleet to haul for our normal customers. So the drivers that have to comply with the HOS are having to run harder to keep the customers happy. The boss is trying to grow as fast as possible but we can not get new drivers right now. Why travel restrictions are severe. If we hire a new driver from out of state he has to stay in quarrentine for 2 weeks then can be brought onboard. Most drivers right now are not willing to change carriers due to that issue. Yes we have some drivers that are pushing out the miles. However right now the FMCSA is allowing them to do so. When they say no more waiver they will drop back to normal miles in a month. However who KNOWS when that will be right now. It sure would have been nice if the UP, NS and CSX along with those 2 Canadian players hadn't basically destroyed their customer service departments in a race to see how low they could force their OR in the name of PSR. Since right now I have 20 drivers or 10% of my fleet in the van side and 25 drivers or 50% of my tanker yankers that could use a break from the 18-20 hour days they are putting in on nonstop basis. BaltACD Murphy Siding Shadow the Cats owner ...Some of my tank division drivers are averaging 35k miles a month solo right now. They are running 16 to 18 hours a day trying to keep the plants supplied with whatever they need. In my van division my top team cracked 48k miles last month on the waiver... I know that trucking is your deal and that you don't like being challenged about anything having to do with trucking, but 35,000 miles a month "average" seems pretty high. When she says drivers, is she meaning 'team' drivers'? As 35K miles per month equals 1129 miles per day of a 31 day month - and at 50 MPH average that is the truck being on the move for 22.25 hours, or thereabouts, each of the 31 days. Pretty good for a 24 hour day especially with HOS regulations. That 48K team would have been on the road 31 hours a day at 50 MPH average, or driving 64.5 MPH for each and every 24 hours of a 31 day month. Well, now it mentions drivers averaging 35,000 miles per month then seperately mentions teams doing only 24,000 per month. I say, if the best drivers can drive from Chicago to Austin every day, fire some of those slacker teams and hire more of the superman drivers. The single drivers are averaging 35,000 miles per month (1129 miles per day). I wonder what the superstar drivers are doing per month.
Well, now it mentions drivers averaging 35,000 miles per month then seperately mentions teams doing only 24,000 per month. I say, if the best drivers can drive from Chicago to Austin every day, fire some of those slacker teams and hire more of the superman drivers. The single drivers are averaging 35,000 miles per month (1129 miles per day). I wonder what the superstar drivers are doing per month.
Shadow the Cats ownermy tanker yankers that could use a break from the 18-20 hour days they are putting in on nonstop basis.
Us other people on the road really wish they could take a break, too.
That's scary stuff. And you're worried about people shunting tracks?
It sounds like there's an awful lot of extremely tired drivers out there with no days off and never out of a moving truck. What's the old navy saying "flogging will continue until the morale improves"?
zugmann Shadow the Cats owner my tanker yankers that could use a break from the 18-20 hour days they are putting in on nonstop basis. Us other people on the road really wish they could take a break, too. That's scary stuff. And you're worried about people shunting tracks?
Shadow the Cats owner my tanker yankers that could use a break from the 18-20 hour days they are putting in on nonstop basis.
SOS from the gypsy trucking cat. Or else her company is violating a lot of laws. Hopefully, they forgot the monthly bribes.
charlie hebdo zugmann Shadow the Cats owner my tanker yankers that could use a break from the 18-20 hour days they are putting in on nonstop basis. Us other people on the road really wish they could take a break, too. That's scary stuff. And you're worried about people shunting tracks? SOS from the gypsy trucking cat. Or else her company is violating a lot of laws. Hopefully, they forgot the monthly bribes.
charlie hebdoSOS from the gypsy trucking cat. Or else her company is violating a lot of laws. Hopefully, they forgot the monthly bribes.
She clearly wrote, "Those drivers running that hard are on the HOS WAIVER from the Federal government. That means they are hauling vital supplies needed for the Pandemic to keep vital industries open. They are hauling chemicals to paper plants water treatment plants medical equipment PPE for hospitals "
The drivers cannot be forced to drive those hours, but they are allowed under the emergency regulations.
https://cdllife.com/2020/fmcsa-extend-historic-50-state-covid-19-hos-waiver-into-2021-expands-to-include-vaccines/
Monthly bribes?
In regards to Bakken crude, I believe North Dakota now requires the volitile elements to be removed before loading. There have been a couple of derailments since that mandate without the resulting big boom.
I first read this elsewhere, a link to the NY Times. In it it says one instance triggered the PTC, when it sensed the next block signal going to red, to give an emergency application. If PTC calculates the new "target" is to close for a penalty service application to stop the train, it goes to emergency.
As for shunts. I'd bet almost everyone on here has, or had at one time, a set.
Jeff
jeffhergert If PTC calculates the new "target" is to close for a penalty service application to stop the train, it goes to emergency.
Guess it depends if the red fence falls behind the yellow or the red line.
York1 charlie hebdo SOS from the gypsy trucking cat. Or else her company is violating a lot of laws. Hopefully, they forgot the monthly bribes. She clearly wrote, "Those drivers running that hard are on the HOS WAIVER from the Federal government. That means they are hauling vital supplies needed for the Pandemic to keep vital industries open. They are hauling chemicals to paper plants water treatment plants medical equipment PPE for hospitals " The drivers cannot be forced to drive those hours, but they are allowed under the emergency regulations. https://cdllife.com/2020/fmcsa-extend-historic-50-state-covid-19-hos-waiver-into-2021-expands-to-include-vaccines/ Monthly bribes?
charlie hebdo SOS from the gypsy trucking cat. Or else her company is violating a lot of laws. Hopefully, they forgot the monthly bribes.
I have a bridge you might consider buying.
I'm hardly the only member on here who has expressed doubts about the truck lady's claims.
Deleted in the interest of the thread.
Wave money in front of someone and they'll do all kinds of stupid things, especially when they are tired. I'm sure there's pressure from above, too.
charlie hebdoI'm hardly the only member on here who has expressed doubts about the truck lady's claims.
I did not say you were the only one.
My post was meant to point out that the mileage and hours she wrote about are not against the law.
I checked some sites that say team drivers can expect over 1,000 miles per day, and if the loading-unloading is planned correctly, they can get more than that.
The moderation around here has never been that effective. A person could try establishing some kind of trains network on Facebook to not be exposed to disinformation? I hear they work hard at screening what gets posted over there?
The problem is 3 fold. 1st off the Global supply chain was disrupted by COVID totally. Some of the plants that my waiver drivers are serving would not be running without the materials my work kids would be delivering. These drivers for months now have been driving like supermen and women all across this nation and they are starting to wear out. 2 some plants especially in the chemical side of things require strict training to deliver to them. That is why several of my drivers on the tanker side can not get relived they are the ONLY drivers in our fleet qualified by the customer to deliver to them. The last one is the government itself. By constantly ramping up and then down on what level of closure they are throwing states into they are constantly disrupting how the logistics system can respond to the pandemic. The industry no sooner gets one state's situation under control so to speak in terms of PPE and other crap and then the next wave is hitting us. The chain can only be pulled in so many directions before it snaps. I can tell you this much from what I have seen my drivers know when to shut it down for the night they also know how hard they need to push to keep the supplies needed by the healthcare industry flowing and the groceries at the stores. My kids at work are doing everything they can to save lives without taking them from being tired. It isn't easy walking that line. They have personally seen what happens to members of their own families and friends that have caught and several have lost loved ones from this crap. They want it to end just as much as the rest of us in this nation so they can go back to being safe and legal drivers.
They would rather be doing their 70 hour weeks instead of 120 on average they have been for the last 8 months. That has been the average for my solo drivers and we have upped their trucks to 75 MPH to make sure they can get to where they need to be as fast as possible.
Shadow the Cats ownerThe problem is 3 fold. 1st off the Global supply chain was disrupted by COVID totally. Some of the plants that my waiver drivers are serving would not be running without the materials my work kids would be delivering. These drivers for months now have been driving like supermen and women all across this nation and they are starting to wear out. 2 some plants especially in the chemical side of things require strict training to deliver to them. That is why several of my drivers on the tanker side can not get relived they are the ONLY drivers in our fleet qualified by the customer to deliver to them. The last one is the government itself. By constantly ramping up and then down on what level of closure they are throwing states into they are constantly disrupting how the logistics system can respond to the pandemic. The industry no sooner gets one state's situation under control so to speak in terms of PPE and other crap and then the next wave is hitting us. The chain can only be pulled in so many directions before it snaps. I can tell you this much from what I have seen my drivers know when to shut it down for the night they also know how hard they need to push to keep the supplies needed by the healthcare industry flowing and the groceries at the stores. My kids at work are doing everything they can to save lives without taking them from being tired. It isn't easy walking that line. They have personally seen what happens to members of their own families and friends that have caught and several have lost loved ones from this crap. They want it to end just as much as the rest of us in this nation so they can go back to being safe and legal drivers. They would rather be doing their 70 hour weeks instead of 120 on average they have been for the last 8 months. That has been the average for my solo drivers and we have upped their trucks to 75 MPH to make sure they can get to where they need to be as fast as possible.
I would venture you are complicit in your 'qualfied' drivers being the only ones - my God start training other drivers. Yes there will be ones the don't measure up, but without starting a training scenario you will drive the already qualified drivers to early graves and maybe some innocent bystanders.
17+ hour days for nine months driving trucks at 75 (way over speed limit)? That poses a horrible safety hazard for everyone. It's criminal or certainly should be.
wow.
It sounds like the "work kids" who are qualified for certain facilities are pressured to keep driving and not to take time off, probably by office staff and dispatchers who have never driven OTR. I'm sure the drivers will get big profit sharing bonuses in appreciation for helping the owners get filthy rich. (sarcasm)
charlie hebdo (way over speed limit)?
Not hardly - many Interstates in the Midwest and the Great Plains are posted for 75 MPH.
tree68Not hardly - many Interstates in the Midwest and the Great Plains are posted for 75 MPH.
Ha-ha, have you ever driven in Northern Illinois? Just curious.
tree68 charlie hebdo (way over speed limit)?
U.S. Truck and Auto Speed Limits (truckercountry.com)
Backshop tree68 charlie hebdo (way over speed limit)? We're talking commercial trucks, not cars. U.S. Truck and Auto Speed Limits (truckercountry.com)
We're talking commercial trucks, not cars.
I believe a number of studies have shown that having different speed limits for cars and trucks is a prime cause of traffic congestion and open road highway accidents.
It is, but it depends. A 5mph difference isn't much. When Michigan used to have 70 for cars and 55 for trucks is when there were problems. The point is that overworked/under-rested drivers at 75mph isn't safe. When you're tired, your reflexes are much slower.
BackshopIt is, but it depends. A 5mph difference isn't much. When Michigan used to have 70 for cars and 55 for trucks is when there were problems. The point is that overworked/under-rested drivers at 75mph isn't safe. When you're tired, your reflexes are much slower.
When you get into descending grades - there are, in many cases, truck speed limits that can be as much as 30 MPH slower than car limits. 80K pounds of truck and load can easily burn up their brakes descending grades at high speed; this is part of the reason the so called 'Jake Brake' was created to enhance the truck diesel engine as a braking tool. On the grades you can also see emergency 'runoffs' for out of control trucks.
Driving trucks through territory with long severe grades is as challenging for truckers as similar territory is for railroad engineers - getting their vehicles to the top of the grade is easy, getting it down the other side safely is where their skills get demonstrated.
York1 charlie hebdo I'm hardly the only member on here who has expressed doubts about the truck lady's claims. I did not say you were the only one. My post was meant to point out that the mileage and hours she wrote about are not against the law. I checked some sites that say team drivers can expect over 1,000 miles per day, and if the loading-unloading is planned correctly, they can get more than that.
charlie hebdo I'm hardly the only member on here who has expressed doubts about the truck lady's claims.
Backshop It sounds like the "work kids" who are qualified for certain facilities are pressured to keep driving and not to take time off, probably by office staff and dispatchers who have never driven OTR. I'm sure the drivers will get big profit sharing bonuses in appreciation for helping the owners get filthy rich. (sarcasm)
A few points... non truckers would be surprised at how many miles aren't on interstates. Also, she says they drive 16-18 hours a day. That leaves 6-8 hours to fuel, eat, sleep, do laundry, get unloaded, get loaded etc. There aren't enough hours in the day to do that safely. I drove a truck for a short period, I know.
Most states have gotten rid of the split speed limit or made it a 5 MPH difference at the most. Yes my drivers are getting worn out that are on the waiver we have repeatedly asked the customers that restrict drivers into their plants to certify more of our drivers into them. Why they all have the same background checks done just to be able to hold the Hazmat endorsement and TWIC card for their employment here. The issue isn't with my driver's wanting to HOARD the miles it falls on the customers that refuse to allow us to send different drivers into their plants. If they would let us send 1 or 2 drivers in to train in procedures we could start giving the waiver driver's breaks that they so desperatly need and I am not just talking a couple days here and there. I am talking pulling them from those runs for weeks at a time so they can rest properly.
Murphy that is our starting pay and not ONE of our new guys in on a waiver. Only our drivers that have been here for at least 10 years or MORE is on these runs. They also have at least 1 million accident free with us and also will shut down for rest at anytime. The average pay here for a year is around 70K a year for our drivers our tanker boys are normally in the 110K a year range.
Even passenger cars can overdrive their brakes. Back in '68, I was on vacation and went from San Fransico out to Muir Woods and up Mt Tamalpais. Coming down, I was enjoying the rental car and came down at speed. Rode the brake to keep from going too fast. When I got to the bottom and a stop sign, I had NO brakes! Fortunately no traffic on the cross stree and no pedestrians or police. (Learned a lesson. I should have known better because Cincinnati has hills and I knew about the rule you go down at the speed you can go up. But I was enjoying the trip and no excuses. Got lucky.
Shadow the Cats owner Murphy that is our starting pay and not ONE of our new guys in on a waiver. Only our drivers that have been here for at least 10 years or MORE is on these runs. They also have at least 1 million accident free with us and also will shut down for rest at anytime. The average pay here for a year is around 70K a year for our drivers our tanker boys are normally in the 110K a year range.
Walmart truck drivers with two years experience average $86,000 per year.
Highest pay for dry grain bulk driver is $120,000.
Highest pay for liquid bulk hasmat is $120,000.
Highest pay for heavy equipment transport is $150,000.
I'm not sure why some are questioning her comments. What is she saying that is not correct?
Team drivers can get well over 1,000 miles per day.
Drivers with experience can earn well over $100,000 per year.
Don't just look at average salaries. Check out the salaries of experienced truckers driving long distances with important cargo.
York1 I'm not sure why some are questioning her comments. What is she saying that is not correct?
HOLY COW! I just read back through this Thread, and it's giving me a case of whiplash!
I started it the other day when I found a series of stories referencing the tale of a couple of women in Washington State who were arrested for attempting to sbotage local railroad lines in their State.
Topically, it seemed to be a subject of interest on this Forum,and timely as well. I steared clear of the mentions of the two miscrants political histories, due to the 'no politics policy' here.
Almost immediately, I got 'called on the carpet' for my sourced information being from 'right-wing' sources. So I just considered the'source', and let it slide; some people never seem to be able to look beyond their own personal levels of indroctination.
One of the key issues, mentioned in the linked source information was the mention of the planting of 'shunts' in the areas of highway rail grade crossings. With a potential of causing a crash at the highway-rail crossing(?) Also the similar placing of 'shunts'[some 40 incidents, reported?] to create problems with rail signaling, and the potential to cause a train to go into an emergency braking action; resulting in chaos, and maybe, eve a wreck?
Interesting conversations cretainly, worthy of discussions here.
Then the conversation jumped to highway speeds, and traffic on roadways. Auto and more specifically, commercial truck traffic.
WE all drive (?) so again, a topical issue.
Since I spent some time (25 yrs) in the commercial transport industry; I found that was also of some interest. Shadow's Owner is currently, in that business. She works for a carrier that has several areas of concentration (dry vans, and tankers). So I would respect the information she brings to the conversation. Since I have been retired for 20+ years, my info is less than current. Having worked for carriers, in the past; that ran single driver, and team driver operations, I am aware, that generally, team drivers can roughly double the income potential of the bottom line, for a single drivers earnings.
What I have no knowledge of, beyond knowing that because of the current pandemic, the Feds have instituted what amount to HOS waivers in the industry. I'd leave it to Shadow's Owner, and several others(?) who post around here from time to time; to fill in that kind of information. Similarly, current drivers wages, and current pay packages(?).
I do know that OTR Driver's wages, and how the final pay packages are arrived at, and are products of a number of varied factors. Such calculations, Vary from company to company.
I know that haulage of liquids, and flowable products; in tank-type trailers, generally, move at the hands of skilled operators. The fees for their movement are mostly at premium levels.
So those elements would account for what seem to be higher mileages with teams of drivers, and high value, and dangerous/hazardous commodities being transported.
BackshopI'm not questioning her salary figures, I'm questioning the physical state of her drivers.
You may not be questioning the salary and mileage claims, but others on here have.
One of the largest trucking companies in the U.S. is located a few miles from me. Their situation is the same as Cat has reported.
Her drivers may face a difficult physical status, but her company is not alone. There is a driver shortage at the same time the pandemic has increased demand for shipping products.
Backshop A "normal" driver does 100-120K miles a year. Hers are doing it in 3-4 months.
The government rule changes during the past eight months have made trucking anything but normal.
Good for drivers and safety? Probably not. But that doesn't make her reports a "story".
Anectdotal: Yesterday I drove about 50 miles on Interstate 80. Normally, the long haul trucks go 60 - 70 mph in this area. The speed limit for cars and trucks is 75 mph. Yesterday, I drove 80 mph. The semis were almost all doing the same speed, with several going faster.
York1There is a driver shortage...
Indeed, this has been the case for quite some time now, from what I've read in the news, etc. It far preceeds the panicdemic.
samfp1943 Since I spent some time (25 yrs) in the commercial transport industry; I found that was also of some interest. Shadow's Owner is currently, in that business. She works for a carrier that has several areas of concentration ( dry vans, and tankers). So I would respect the information she briongs to the conversation.
I agree, I find it far less challenging to respect her "credentials" than some others who don't seem to be able to disagree with anyone without wrapping it in a veiled personal attack.
As far as the original post, I think I have a solution. Instead of another round of stimulus checks, why don't we spend the money instead to convert all those vacant Sears, K-mart, and J.C. Penney buildings into rehabilitation and training centers to incarcerate the safe distancing and mask scofflaws and other domestic terrorists until the pandemic is over?
Then afterwards, we take the bars off the windows and just call them "homeless shelters". A true "win-win" if ever there was one.
I found the original topic to be quite worthy of discussion and very interesting. It raised questions that went unexplored as the thread delved into speed limits on highways. The news report of the shunts being placed is specific about tangible behavior and motive. So I don’t worry about its credibility being compromised by the ideology of the source.
A key point ignored was the question of who else may have participated in the placing of the 41 shunts over a period of several days or weeks. Was it just those two women, or were there others involved? Also, was the objective just the testing of the shunt practice just to try it out for perhaps linking it to a means of greater destruction and disruption such as derailments? Or were the shunts placed for achieving the stated result of preventing (or delaying) rail shipments of pipeline construction materials being shipped to the site of the disputed new pipeline. But how that would that be accomplished by the shunts?
I saw another article that mentioned sabotage in that same general location by pouring concrete over the tracks to derail a train. And the perpetrators then called the railroad company to inform them so they (the railroad) sould stop the trains to prevent people on the trains from being killed or injured. So we get somewhat of a profile of the perpetrators; always trying to protect people from train wrecks and new pipelines.
tree68Indeed, this has been the case for quite some time now, from what I've read in the news, etc. It far preceeds the panicdemic.
Almost like people don't want to be driving 20 hours a day?
To stress my point:
I'm not questioing the validity of the claim of hours worked. I'm not questioning the claim of money made. I am questioning whether I want to share the road with these trucks. Esp since we have a thread where we were discussing unsafe practices like shunting tracks.
Where's that paid truck lobbyist dude that usually comes around to threads like these?
Something I find interesting is that this seems like a pretty big deal as far as criminal activity and possible consequences from a derailed train go. Yet it seems like getting out on bail until their court date wasn't too difficult. Would the same thing happen if there were 41 instances of people loosening the lugnuts on jet airliners that might be carrying people that worked on that pipeline project?
Having seen the aftermath of an inattentive, speeding trucker once (Marengo toll plaza crash, 2003, 8 dead, 20 injured), I don't want to share the road with guys with little sleep driving at 75-80 mph.
There are exemptions, but one wonders if they are being abused?
https://www.ehstoday.com/safety/article/21127165/dot-adjusts-exemptions-for-truck-drivers-during-covid19-crisis
https://www.seattletrucklaw.com/blog/trucking-rules-changed-under-coronavirus-what-does-that-mean-for-the-future-of-trucking-safety/
https://www.ccjdigital.com/fleet-drivers-increase-severe-speeding-during-covid-19/
York1 There is a driver shortage at the same time the pandemic has increased demand for shipping products.
There is a driver shortage at the same time the pandemic has increased demand for shipping products.
Compare this to unionized railroad operating jobs. All their jobs are out-and-back so they are home at least every other day. Plus, they get paid more, with better benefits.
It's just like the regional airlines. They kept crying about a pilot shortage. They finally raised their hourly rate and they had plenty of applicants. My brother worked for American Eagle as a Captain before he went to Northwest/Delta. In their first year, First Officers (copilots) made about $15K a year. We were eating in the local Cracker Barrel once when I was visiting him and he pointed out one of the waiters and said he was an FO trying to make ends meet.
Say what you will about unions, but if there isn't a critical mass of union jobs in an industry, wages suffer because employers don't have to worry about a union coming in. That's why nonunion wages are much higher in the auto industry than in trucking. There is still a threat of the UAW organizing if they don't come close to union benefits and pay.
To York1 and Backshop: I cannot argue either of your points. As to a shortage of OTR Drivers; I say you are probably spot-on...Driving OTR as a single driver requires some unique psychological characterristics; I would say important traits would be a person who is able to work alone, and is especially able to self- motivate to a level of goal orientation. To Backshop, you are correct, Union organized and covered jobs generally will rise to the tops of the available pay scales. But they can come with some pit-falls, specifically, lay-offs, and senority issues; 'bumping' from OTR to possibly, city P/D or Dock work. To name just a couple of big issues to some. Not to mention a couple of important terms to drivers: "No Touch load/Unload" or " Drop and Hook Loads" or any description of driver's work required.
As to driver pay scales; I would defer to some Internet Search information on current job scales. Here is one that seems to maybe be current information?
https://www.ziprecLruiter.com/Salaries/OTR-Truck-Driver-Salary
Here is a linked site for Schneider National/Green Bay Wi.
@ https://www.truckdriverssalary.com/schneider-trucking-pay/
Anyone can Search" OTR ASingle/Team Drivrs pay" and find out about any current hiring for OTR Jobs. Basicly, Name yourown poison!
Maybe, the above information will help some, and others to go out and get a paper route.
Backshop York1 There is a driver shortage at the same time the pandemic has increased demand for shipping products. There really isn't a driver shortage. There's a shortage of drivers who want to work for what most companies are willing to pay. The culprits are the bottom feeder megacarriers like Swift, Prime and CR England. Their starting pay is normally in the low to mid $.30cpm. Think about that. You have to drive 100K a year to make $35K a year. You might get 2 days at home after being gone 2-3 weeks, on average. Due to union busting and deregulation, driver salaries haven't kept up with inflation. When I worked for Schneider back in 1995, their starting pay then was .25cpm. I believe that CR England was paying .13-15cpm. Compare this to unionized railroad operating jobs. All their jobs are out-and-back so they are home at least every other day. Plus, they get paid more, with better benefits. It's just like the regional airlines. They kept crying about a pilot shortage. They finally raised their hourly rate and they had plenty of applicants. My brother worked for American Eagle as a Captain before he went to Northwest/Delta. In their first year, First Officers (copilots) made about $15K a year. We were eating in the local Cracker Barrel once when I was visiting him and he pointed out one of the waiters and said he was an FO trying to make ends meet. Say what you will about unions, but if there isn't a critical mass of union jobs in an industry, wages suffer because employers don't have to worry about a union coming in. That's why nonunion wages are much higher in the auto industry than in trucking. There is still a threat of the UAW organizing if they don't come close to union benefits and pay.
There really isn't a driver shortage. There's a shortage of drivers who want to work for what most companies are willing to pay. The culprits are the bottom feeder megacarriers like Swift, Prime and CR England. Their starting pay is normally in the low to mid $.30cpm. Think about that. You have to drive 100K a year to make $35K a year. You might get 2 days at home after being gone 2-3 weeks, on average. Due to union busting and deregulation, driver salaries haven't kept up with inflation. When I worked for Schneider back in 1995, their starting pay then was .25cpm. I believe that CR England was paying .13-15cpm.
Unions do more than raise pay scales. They also concern themselves with work conditions and safety. Perhaps that is what is missing here?
charlie hebdo Unions do more than raise pay scales. They also concern themselves with work conditions and safety. Perhaps that is what is missing here?
It's funny all this talk of waivers of HOS and drivers working "extra" time/miles. Before the electronic log book requirement this was normal for many drivers. Especially those working for the bottom feeder companies. One reason the government wanted to go to E-logs. It's harder to "be creative" with them.
Before they got caught doing it, instructors at one trucking program at a community college would show student drivers how to "be creative" with the logs. I took the program over 30 years and the instructors admited this. They also said if one had a "question" about such things, they would answer, "you said that, I didn't."
Backshop charlie hebdo Unions do more than raise pay scales. They also concern themselves with work conditions and safety. Perhaps that is what is missing here? Correct. I like how anti-union people say "that doesn't matter because we have OSHA" while totally ignoring that if there wasn't an organized watchdog group paying attention, industry would have their lobbyists working on repealing and watering down standards in a minute.
Correct. I like how anti-union people say "that doesn't matter because we have OSHA" while totally ignoring that if there wasn't an organized watchdog group paying attention, industry would have their lobbyists working on repealing and watering down standards in a minute.
It's especially bad since in many regulatory and other departments, the upper echelon comes from the industries they are supposed to regulate!
charlie hebdo Backshop charlie hebdo Unions do more than raise pay scales. They also concern themselves with work conditions and safety. Perhaps that is what is missing here? Correct. I like how anti-union people say "that doesn't matter because we have OSHA" while totally ignoring that if there wasn't an organized watchdog group paying attention, industry would have their lobbyists working on repealing and watering down standards in a minute. It's especially bad since in many regulatory and other departments, the upper echelon comes from the industries they are supposed to regulate!
A Union contract is a AGREEMENT between the company and the union with both parties agreeing to WRITTEN work rules and pay rates.
How many of us, in dealing with our work superiors have sought out a rasie for the work we have done, that in OUR minds are above and beyond the requirements of the job we hold - and we get the sob story about how the company can't afford such a raise or some other means of declining the request that both parties know is pure BS - BUT there is no written agreement to be enforced.
Unions are a method to enforce written agreements. Governmnent regulatory agencies don't enforce Union contracts.
charlie hebdoIt's especially bad since in many regulatory and other departments, the upper echelon comes from the industries they are supposed to regulate!
A mixed blessing - we've seen what happens when people with little or no knowledge of the railroad industry are placed in positions of authority - be it management or regulatory.
The fox guarding the henhouse? Hopefully not!
BaltACD Unions are a method to enforce written agreements. Governmnent regulatory agencies don't enforce Union contracts.
Correct.
I think what Larry refers to is when someone with no experience in railroads is placed in charge of an agency like the FRA. People should have at least some expertise/ experience in the industry they are charged with regulating.
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There is a difference between having a former corporate guy now regulating his former corporate colleagues and an actual worker doing so. For example, an EHH-type as head of FRA or DOT, as opposed to a former dispatcher or engineer.
charlie hebdoFor example, an EHH-type as head of FRA or DOT, as opposed to a former dispatcher or engineer.
Meanwhile, what about the opposite case, where someone with less than no relevant experience is put in charge -- Sarah Feinberg, for example? She seems to have done reasonably well, whereas Bella was just a disaster.
I think it depends on the character of the original, more than the nominal office to which they rose or exploited. And by extension to the morals or motivation of whoever political put them in that position.
My impression of EHH was not someone interested in scheming. Exploitive as a serial business 'leader', yes he was. Caring for employees, no he wasn't. But not in the 'business' of gaming the government to give his cronies opportunities they want. I'd point a finger much quicker at whoever it was at EPA that sanctioned the torpedoing of EMD's compliance with Tier 4 final "NOx" emissions.
Agreed. But on the whole, I would prefer actual workers in the industry given oversight than corporate types, especially the MBA guys, who can manage finance today, a railroad tomorrow, because they are usually really working for Wall Street.
charlie hebdoBut on the whole, I would prefer actual workers in the industry given oversight than corporate types...
Note that this is a very separate thing from those people Bill Sword so despised, recent grads from the Leland Stanford Junior University business program who think they know more than anyone around them, but often prove to know far less even than common sense through the ranks would have given.
... especially the MBA guys, who can manage finance today, a railroad tomorrow, because they are usually really working for Wall Street.
The model I used for 'good conglomerate management' was the way the various Thermo companies did business, right up until the tech bottom at the beginning of the century. Everything those guys acquired, they ran well, and they then leveraged the assets and services of one good company to support the others.
In the 'old days' Richard Branson understood when to combine his staffs, and when to keep them functionally separate, business by business. That hasn't been true for some years, and the collapse of his 'empire' can, I think, be attributed to that.
Yes, much of general management can be "common", and yes, a great deal more of effective administration can be. But it will never replace knowledge about the industry concerned and the people who should be in it. (And sometimes the people who shouldn't... )
Overmod charlie hebdo But on the whole, I would prefer actual workers in the industry given oversight than corporate types... Remember the advice I gave Joe, about having Amtrak training overseen by a cadre of people with hard running experience on high-speed trains? It's that same thing. Just as you want to be taught by someone who's done it, you want to know that you're being disciplined by someone who understands what's important -- and that your railroad is being run by people who comprehend how to operate things right, not in ways that make the wrong kind of money from nominal ownership. Note that this is a very separate thing from those people Bill Sword so despised, recent grads from the Leland Stanford Junior University business program who think they know more than anyone around them, but often prove to know far less even than common sense through the ranks would have given. ... especially the MBA guys, who can manage finance today, a railroad tomorrow, because they are usually really working for Wall Street. This is largely an unfortunate consequence from the go-go Sixties, where conglomerates became all the rage and 'general management science' was increasingly assumed to be both an applicable and a teachable 'skill' (to be honest, it was qualified in school by noting that you 'hired experts and then listened to them' in all the areas you weren't truly qualified ... but very few people in my experience listened to that when killings were to be made or 'chainsaw Al' tactics essayed. The situation got worse in the era of Saul Steinberg and Reliance, and of course blew itself up in the Eighties ... there have been attempts since then to reward 'doing it right' but they usually get torpedoed sooner or later as the engineered recessions and market crashes progress year after year. The model I used for 'good conglomerate management' was the way the various Thermo companies did business, right up until the tech bottom at the beginning of the century. Everything those guys acquired, they ran well, and they then leveraged the assets and services of one good company to support the others. In the 'old days' Richard Branson understood when to combine his staffs, and when to keep them functionally separate, business by business. That hasn't been true for some years, and the collapse of his 'empire' can, I think, be attributed to that. Yes, much of general management can be "common", and yes, a great deal more of effective administration can be. But it will never replace knowledge about the industry concerned and the people who should be in it. (And sometimes the people who shouldn't... )
charlie hebdo But on the whole, I would prefer actual workers in the industry given oversight than corporate types...
Remember the advice I gave Joe, about having Amtrak training overseen by a cadre of people with hard running experience on high-speed trains? It's that same thing. Just as you want to be taught by someone who's done it, you want to know that you're being disciplined by someone who understands what's important -- and that your railroad is being run by people who comprehend how to operate things right, not in ways that make the wrong kind of money from nominal ownership.
This is largely an unfortunate consequence from the go-go Sixties, where conglomerates became all the rage and 'general management science' was increasingly assumed to be both an applicable and a teachable 'skill' (to be honest, it was qualified in school by noting that you 'hired experts and then listened to them' in all the areas you weren't truly qualified ... but very few people in my experience listened to that when killings were to be made or 'chainsaw Al' tactics essayed. The situation got worse in the era of Saul Steinberg and Reliance, and of course blew itself up in the Eighties ... there have been attempts since then to reward 'doing it right' but they usually get torpedoed sooner or later as the engineered recessions and market crashes progress year after year.
?????
adkrr64 I think what Larry refers to is when someone with no experience in railroads is placed in charge of an agency like the FRA. People should have at least some expertise/ experience in the industry they are charged with regulating.
Many in the ranks think the FRA is currently just a lap dog for the carriers. That FRA stands for Friend of Railroad Administrations. Mainly because they (FRA) have been quick to hand out railroad requested waivers to the carriers during crises (local and national) the last few years while declining or ignoring requests from the unions.
Interestingly, I know of no waiver for hours of service for the pandemic. That's the first one I would've expected the carriers' to have requested.
To: Jeff H.: Here is an "Official" FMCSA link that may provide you, and anyone else who might be interested, in the H.O.S. currently in place[As of June 1,2020
"...HOS Final Rule On June 1, 2020, FMCSA revised four provisions of the hours of service regulations to provide greater flexibility for drivers without adversely affecting safety. Motor carriers are required to comply with the new HOS regulations starting on September 29, 2020.
Linked @ https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/hours-of-service
It seems a little surprising that there was no mention of a 'change' rule for the Railroad Industry, as well. My guess. would be that the railroads maid no effert to lobby for such a change; as it would effect the same 'relief' sought by Trucking interests during the current Pandemic/COVID 19 ?
jeffhergert adkrr64 I think what Larry refers to is when someone with no experience in railroads is placed in charge of an agency like the FRA. People should have at least some expertise/ experience in the industry they are charged with regulating. Many in the ranks think the FRA is currently just a lap dog for the carriers. That FRA stands for Friend of Railroad Administrations. Mainly because they (FRA) have been quick to hand out railroad requested waivers to the carriers during crises (local and national) the last few years while declining or ignoring requests from the unions. Interestingly, I know of no waiver for hours of service for the pandemic. That's the first one I would've expected the carriers' to have requested. Jeff
That shouldn't come as a surprise these past four years.
charlie hebdoThat shouldn't come as a surprise these past four years.
Whether or not the FRA and AAR are somehow nearly incestuously involved is another matter. They certainly did not, and to my knowledge never have, seen particularly eye to eye on matters of safety enforcement ... which is technically the only major 'remit' the FRA has in the game. If you're going to find evidence of some kind of organized collusion (politically-steered or otherwise) I think you're going to have to go into detail with personal liaison between FRA and AAR staff, and build back from there.
Far more troublesome, to me, are political appointees with actual day-to-day responsibility, especially in making what they consider 'policy'. This for example was what Bella did as a NTSB commissioner: everything had some 'Carthago delenda est' spin about how positive train control would have made it better, regardless of any technical merit whatsoever to the claim. I won't say I'd prefer unenlightened greed to doctrinaire Procrustean politicking ... perhaps better to say I loathe them both and would go to great lengths to see them eliminated as a factor in either agency action or decision-making.
I'm interested to see where a Biden administration goes with FRA, and who they find to set various priorities. particularly if substantial Federal money gets allocated to railroad development. The Christian-Scientist-with-appendicitis problem I currently have is that I can't imagine much positive ever coming out of a Department of Transportation headed by Rahm Emanuel ... unless someone knows about distinctive competence in railroad operations I've never seen a shred of practical evidence of.
OvermodIn my experience FRA is a bureaucracy, and it doesn't really matter that much who's at the 'top' of it.
Deleted. Not worth it.
zugmann Overmod In my experience FRA is a bureaucracy, and it doesn't really matter that much who's at the 'top' of it.
Overmod In my experience FRA is a bureaucracy, and it doesn't really matter that much who's at the 'top' of it.
You knwo what? Screw it. I'm not getting involved in a Overmod peeing match today. The thread is yours.
zugmann I'm not getting involved in a Overmod peeing match today.
Whatever makes you feel better. All yours... have at it. I'm not getting involved with your stuff anymore. You win.
Overmod zugmann Overmod In my experience FRA is a bureaucracy, and it doesn't really matter that much who's at the 'top' of it. Cute, especially since you have not a shred of an idea what my experience with FRA is
zugmann
Everyone has the right to criticize you and/or anyone else for whatever purpose they desire to spout. This is a internet forum.
BaltACDEveryone has the right to criticize you and/or anyone else for whatever purpose they desire to spout.
What he doesn't 'get to do' rhetorically is criticize my opinion just because he disagrees with it, without indicating any facts or reasons to do so. (Even so, he has a constitutional right to do that, as a few people are finding out on RyPN in the past few hours ... it just doesn't advance anything in any meaningful sense except to score troll points.)
Not that it matters, really, on an Internet forum.
OvermodWhat he doesn't 'get to do' rhetorically is criticize my opinion just because he disagrees with it, without indicating any facts or reasons to do so. (Even so, he has a constitutional right to do that, as a few people are finding out on RyPN in the past few hours ... it just doesn't advance anything in any meaningful sense except to score troll points.)
Don't involve me with that dumpster fire that is RYPN lately.
I already conceded to you. Don't bother bringing up my name. I'm done discussing anythign with you. Fair enough? Well, besides this message that is discussing something with you - but you get the point.
zugmannI'm done discussing anything with you.
So what is your background with the FRA? You implied that you had one.
Overmod charlie hebdo That shouldn't come as a surprise these past four years. In my experience FRA is a bureaucracy, and it doesn't really matter that much who's at the 'top' of it. The line and staff will happily tell you 'I was here when they arrived, and I'll be here after they leave'. Meaningful change in how that bureaucracy does business requires far more action than the Trump people would be able to bring to bear, and I doubt you'll see much lasting evidence they did other than window dressing or the occasional 'tweet' opportunity. Whether or not the FRA and AAR are somehow nearly incestuously involved is another matter. They certainly did not, and to my knowledge never have, seen particularly eye to eye on matters of safety enforcement ... which is technically the only major 'remit' the FRA has in the game. If you're going to find evidence of some kind of organized collusion (politically-steered or otherwise) I think you're going to have to go into detail with personal liaison between FRA and AAR staff, and build back from there. Far more troublesome, to me, are political appointees with actual day-to-day responsibility, especially in making what they consider 'policy'. This for example was what Bella did as a NTSB commissioner: everything had some 'Carthago delenda est' spin about how positive train control would have made it better, regardless of any technical merit whatsoever to the claim. I won't say I'd prefer unenlightened greed to doctrinaire Procrustean politicking ... perhaps better to say I loathe them both and would go to great lengths to see them eliminated as a factor in either agency action or decision-making. I'm interested to see where a Biden administration goes with FRA, and who they find to set various priorities. particularly if substantial Federal money gets allocated to railroad development. The Christian-Scientist-with-appendicitis problem I currently have is that I can't imagine much positive ever coming out of a Department of Transportation headed by Rahm Emanuel ... unless someone knows about distinctive competence in railroad operations I've never seen a shred of practical evidence of.
charlie hebdo That shouldn't come as a surprise these past four years.
In my experience FRA is a bureaucracy, and it doesn't really matter that much who's at the 'top' of it. The line and staff will happily tell you 'I was here when they arrived, and I'll be here after they leave'. Meaningful change in how that bureaucracy does business requires far more action than the Trump people would be able to bring to bear, and I doubt you'll see much lasting evidence they did other than window dressing or the occasional 'tweet' opportunity.
And what precisely is your experience with the FRA? In what capacity?
As to Rahm Emanuel as Sec of Transportation: it's hardly a done deal. Whatever one thinks of him, he does get stuff done. But I suppose you have some experience with him as well?
And what is your "distinctive competence in railroad operations"?
OM: "You can have your own opinion all day long. You don't have the standing to criticize mine, let alone any right."
Anyone has the right to criticize you or anyone else on here, regardless of their "standing." What makes you so special? What is your standing? Nobody actually knows.
And what is your remark involving RyPN supposed to mean? A warning?
charlie hebdoAnd what is your remark involving RyPN supposed to mean? A warning?
It has nothing whatsoever to do with Zug or anything he posts -- and I don't want to even suggest that it does. (Now, I don't remember it always being that way, but I was specifically asked to join RyPN circa 2011 to address a previous evolving dumpster fire of poor 'manners', and of course there is a piece of famous history I won't go into from circa 2006 when one poster started saying he was going to sue the whole Internet presence associated with Eleanor-P for slander or libel, and huge numbers of people believed him.
We've had occasional bouts of 'trouble' along the vague general attitude line here from time to time, a recent one being a post that seemed to be mocking Mark Meyer, but Mark chose not to respond in kind and the thing seems to have blown over. As things here usually do.
charlie hebdoWhat makes you so special?
It's not a snob or privilege thing; had he contradicted my opinion by simply saying I disagree with that view of the FRA because [reasons] -- and of course there might be; I don't know what he was going to say -- there would have been no trouble.
charlie hebdoAnd what precisely is your experience with the FRA? In what capacity?
My problem with Rahm Emanuel is more of a gut feeling than anything carefully reasoned that says he is a polarizing figure who will not get things done. I'm certainly not going to defend Elaine Chao in any particular respect, and I thought Sarah Feinberg did a reasonably good job -- she seemed willing to listen and learn, and delegate to reasonable people when necessary, and I think she has done the same at MTA or whatever the agency calls itself now. So it isn't that it's hopeless, and it's certainly not that Mr. Emanuel doesn't have the organizing skills to run the Department. It's really more like Teller said about Oppenheimer, that I would prefer to see the upcoming transportation actions 'in hands which I understand better ... and trust more'.
My distinctive competence, or lack of the same, is immaterial. I'm not a candidate for Secretary of Transportation.
You brought up RyPN. It is irrelevant on here, only a distraction.
You don't need to answer my pointed and simple questions but they are relevant to your high-handed responses to Zugmann. Somehow, however, I doubt if you will because "that would be telling" in more ways than one.
Taking a final project exam project for a Master's level class at Columbia hardly makes you some final arbiter of how impartial a regulator of the railroads themselves FRA is, especially as to how well it is a caretaker of the well-being of rail employees versus management desires.
charlie hebdoYou brought up RyPN. It is irrelevant on here, only a distraction.
charlie hebdoYou don't need to answer my pointed and simple questions but they are relevant to your high-handed responses to Zugmann.
I will, on the other hand, apologize to Zug for both the high-handed tone and for making more out of my own impression of what he said than I think he meant to put there. That doesn't help the situation, but at least I make the offer.
The pictures and expert reports found in that RYPN thread speak for themselves.
The dumpster is now being inflamed by an individual who seems to be completely ignorant of the Streisand Effect.
It's an interesting read if you have the time.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70DudeIt's an interesting read if you have the time.
I did try to get the one poster to avoid the Streisand Effect, but he apparently couldn't stand being baited. It will be interesting to see how this finally ends up, although nothing we might say here is any more 'conclusive' (or less premature) than what's being said over there.
Overmod The problem is that most of it is either needless or needs better explanation than it will get.
The problem is that most of it is either needless or needs better explanation than it will get.
I'm no expert, but there are several actual steam and railroad experts in that thread. They've given some pretty good explanations and analysis.
You just have to sift through the tit-for-tat exchanges and Rimmasch doing his best Trump impression......
Overmod SD70Dude It's an interesting read if you have the time. The problem is that most of it is either needless or needs better explanation than it will get. I did try to get the one poster to avoid the Streisand Effect, but he apparently couldn't stand being baited. It will be interesting to see how this finally ends up, although nothing we might say here is any more 'conclusive' (or less premature) than what's being said over there.
SD70Dude It's an interesting read if you have the time.
I glanced at it. No real controversy is apparent. It appears a very poor job was performed by Wasatch, confirmed by the FRA inspectors, and damages were awarded, to be paid by Wasatch.
charlie hebdoI glanced at it. No real controversy is apparent.
The pictures are not from the FRA inspection and some of them are visibly not of the #14 locomotive, btw.
In my opinion Wasatch was responsible for carefully and thoroughly documenting all the weirdnesses they encountered when starting -- that doesn't take MBA-grade wisdom; anyone who has rented a New York apartment knows the importance of doing so ... and the likely consequences if they don't.
It is also my opinion that Wasatch should have raised far more objection, regularly and perhaps in annoying repetitive detail, whenever any strange volunteer activity or performance, or interference from the 'owner', was encountered. Not in-their-face confrontation, just 'documented and done'.
The present problem Wasatch has, again in my opinion and I'm neither a lawyer nor an arbitration expert, is that issues with reporting, expert-witness testimony, and a number of issues now being expressed privately as concerns needed to be brought up timely, during the arbitration hearing. Evidently they were not.
It remains to be seen how this plays out; it certainly doesn't reflect what I know of either John Rimmasch or Matt Janssen (via the ESC that among other things revived the ASME code for locomotive boilers a couple of years ago). On the other hand, the reported botched work by Gary Bensman and Scott Lindsey certainly doesn't reflect what I know of them, either.
As we keep saying in threads here: there is likely more to this than presented -- at least I hope there is.
If anyone wants to read the public records of the arbitration and judgment, or see Jason Sobczynski's company report, they are linked in the (now mercifully locked) RyPN threads, or PM me.
Overmod charlie hebdo I glanced at it. No real controversy is apparent. The controversy is in some aspects of the reported documentation, and in the quality of work done before Wasatch took the job and at times Wasatch was 'not supervising' for a variety of interesting reasons. The pictures are not from the FRA inspection and some of them are visibly not of the #14 locomotive, btw. In my opinion Wasatch was responsible for carefully and thoroughly documenting all the weirdnesses they encountered when starting -- that doesn't take MBA-grade wisdom; anyone who has rented a New York apartment knows the importance of doing so ... and the likely consequences if they don't. It is also my opinion that Wasatch should have raised far more objection, regularly and perhaps in annoying repetitive detail, whenever any strange volunteer activity or performance, or interference from the 'owner', was encountered. Not in-their-face confrontation, just 'documented and done'. The present problem Wasatch has, again in my opinion and I'm neither a lawyer nor an arbitration expert, is that issues with reporting, expert-witness testimony, and a number of issues now being expressed privately as concerns needed to be brought up timely, during the arbitration hearing. Evidently they were not. It remains to be seen how this plays out; it certainly doesn't reflect what I know of either John Rimmasch or Matt Janssen (via the ESC that among other things revived the ASME code for locomotive boilers a couple of years ago). On the other hand, the reported botched work by Gary Bensman and Scott Lindsey certainly doesn't reflect what I know of them, either. As we keep saying in threads here: there is likely more to this than presented -- at least I hope there is. If anyone wants to read the public records of the arbitration and judgment, or see Jason Sobczynski's company report, they are linked in the (now mercifully locked) RyPN threads, or PM me.
charlie hebdo I glanced at it. No real controversy is apparent.
The controversy is in some aspects of the reported documentation, and in the quality of work done before Wasatch took the job and at times Wasatch was 'not supervising' for a variety of interesting reasons.
Sounds like somebody has a dog in this fight.
charlie hebdoSounds like somebody has a dog in this fight.
A simple, declarative statement based entirely on your own remarks.
This is going to be my only statement on the issues over at that other site after reading that thread. If one of my mechanics repaired a tanker trailer like that so called expert contractor did that locomotive and it later had an accidential release of hazmat the DOT EPA and several other Alphabet agencies in both the Federal and State Government would have not only that mechanics rear end for lunch but have my bosses rear end in a sling my insurance carrier going PLEASE APPLY LUBE FIRST and we as a carrier would be looking at bankruptcy court to try and save what we could from the damage. That contractor could have killed people with their shoddy almost CRIMINAL work. Yet they were the same people that less than a decade ago where responsible for keeping the 844 and 3985 running for the UP. Now do you see why Ed Dickens brought all maintance operations in house for the UP Steam Fleet. It was because of work like this he found.
Overmod... If anyone wants to read the public records of the arbitration and judgment, or see Jason Sobczynski's company report, they are linked in the (now mercifully locked) RyPN threads, or PM me.
Final post has links to the FoIA obtained legal documents.
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44909&start=45
Overmod The pictures are not from the FRA inspection and some of them are visibly not of the #14 locomotive, btw.
Which pictures are you referring to?
And for those of us who haven't seen K&T 14 in person, how can you tell?
charlie hebdoA simple, declarative statement based entirely on your own remarks.
BaltACDFinal post has links to the FoIA obtained legal documents.
The original Wasatch proposal for locomotive 14 is here.
Matt Austin provided links to Jason Sobczyski's report. As I received them, so shall I impart them:
Evaluation pp.1 to 11;
Evaluation pp.12 to 16;
Evaluation pp.17 to 22;
Evaluation pp.23 to 27;
Evaluation pp.28 to 31;
Evaluation pp.32 to 35.
Keep in mind that the chain of custody of these pictures hasn't been established; it may be a while, now that the judgment has been finalized, before Jason comments directly. While the issue of Wasatch's responsibility as contractor for this horror is difficult to explain (and as I said is not at all representative of what I would have done in a similar situation over a similar timeframe) it does need to be said that a great deal of the pictured 'details' is, to me, more likely representative of owners'-volunteer unsupervised "activity" rather than what someone directly from Wasatch would perform. Others can, and almost certainly will, disagree.
As I think any sort of 'appeal' from the arbitration and judgment is likely not to proceed on applicable legal grounds, there shouldn't be much time before counsel stops advising the parties to discuss the substantive issues. We may get a considerable more amount of 'heat not light' before the facts are established (and, at this point inevitable, blame laid and lessons-learned carefully documented) but I don't expect it to be that long, or for either stonewalling or carefully fabricated details to be exposed.
One thing that is certain: #14 deserved better than this for nearly the whole of this century.
Appalled doesn't even begin to describe my feelings about that quality of boiler work, regardless of who performed it.
If they had somehow gotten that thing to hold water and then fired it and brought it up to pressure, it would have resulted in a Gettysburg style disaster, perhaps worse depending on what failed first.
And just how much money has been spent butchering that poor engine over the last 20 years?
SD70DudeIf they had somehow gotten that thing to hold water and then fired it and brought it up to pressure, it would have resulted in a Gettysburg style disaster, perhaps worse depending on what failed first.
Of course, that's assuming that abortion would pass a hydro test in the first place; I don't see how it possibly could.
The all-thread stay provision, in particular, had that Mentor-like dancing-on-the-raw-edge-of-immediate-disaster that a crown eroded to under 1/16 has. So does incomplete-pen welding into torch-cut ... enlarged ... holes. The thing is that this isn't amateur hour -- you'd have to work hard, for a considerable time, to get that level of abortive achievement without anybody stopping the idiot parade.
And apparently exactly the same level of competence was observed before Wasatch took this contract. It takes a special kind of crew to cut and install tubes and flues into the wrong, non-corresponding holes ... and then weld over the vacant holes and apparently hope no one will notice or comment! [EDIT: it now appears that what Gary's crew did was install a few tubes into the rear tubesheet, before the front tubesheet was restored, and "somebody" didn't line things up correctly thereafter -- still long before Wasatch. It will be interesting to see how this timeline firms up going forward...]
I don't know much about pressure vessel construction, that being said - using commercial grade all thread through oxy-acetylene flame cut holes in the crown sheet is a self made bomb.
Apparently the contractor either had no knowledge of all the applicable requirements that apply to boiler construction/maintenance of any kind, let alone the railroad requirements - or they did not care. My guess tends to the later option.
One of my memories of my track troll days at OERM was using a proper rail saw to cut off the ends of rail with flame cut bolt holes. New bolt holes would then be drilled. Don't want to think of the bad things that can happen in a boiler shelll with that kind of nonsense.
If any of you are interested in the documentation, drop what you're doing and download it now. The respective threads have been entirely deleted (causing its own kerfuffle both among the mods and in some of the membership) and I doubt it will be long before someone notices the cached resources too.
Ironically, John Rimmasch complained about being censored by the RYPN mods on several occasions.
I downloaded all that stuff as soon as it was posted.
Erik - We also have a bunch of rail with similar holes, and it indeed considered a defect. Most of our torch holes were made when folks tried to bolt two rails from different manufacturers together, and decided to 'make them fit' (Algoma and Dofasco spaced their holes a little bit differently).
I believe that back in the day 'trainwrecking' was a capital offense in many states punishable by the death penalty. These wackos are trying to stop oil trains.
I read every post in those threads, but I did not get right down to diagraming the logic and implications of everything that was said. The photos do show atrocious work for a steam boiler. Of that, there is no doubt.
But generally, it seemed to me that Wasatch was being blamed for every workmanship defect shown in all the photos. But, by several comments, it was not clear to me that they were responsible for every flaw shown. I perceived that as a point of confusion, but I did not put the effort into unraveling all those details.
It just seemed like the threads took on a life of their own, and based on every photo and every comment, found Wasatch guilty of it all, and blamed them for the most horrible workmanship possible; and that was the only conclusion to the controversy.
Also, those threads were put back on the forum shortly after having been removed. I assume they are still there to read, but they did remain locked even though they were re-posted due to all the criticism of the moderators for removing them in the first place.
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