The two sides BOTH have rights, rights which neither side wants to respect and/or acknowledge.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Canadian law applies to trespassing on the railroads and blockading trains. But Mr. Trudeau chooses not to enforce it because removing the blockades would appear to be committing violence against the indiginous people.
I believe a large part of the Canadian population views this as violating their rights, and so the appeasement of the indginous people is creating a sharp divide that is likely to have the bad ending that everyone seems to fear.
tree68The issue is First Nations territory, where I believe by general consensus that Canadian law does not necessarily apply. The protests off First Nations territory are trespassing and blocking commerce, in and of themselves illegal. Were they not intrinsically tied to the issue at hand, I suspect they'd be long gone.
The way I see it, there are an array of laws involved, so enforcement becomes a matter of disparate priorities. And personal property rights are not the highest priority at present.
I suspect that enforcement would be viewed much in the same spirit as handing out speeding tickets to drivers trying to escape a forest fire.
In the US, the FBI has jurisdiction over Indian lands, does not the RCMP have the same jurisdiction?
EuclidDoesn't all of this already exist as a matter of law? I had assumed that the blockades are illegal, but the law is being violated and not enforced.
The issue is First Nations territory, where I believe by general consensus that Canadian law does not necessarily apply.
The protests off First Nations territory are trespassing and blocking commerce, in and of themselves illegal. Were they not intrinsically tied to the issue at hand, I suspect they'd be long gone.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Overmodbut continue, of course, to defer quietly to Canadian rights to continue to elect the democracy they deserve, and enjoy the consequences thereof.
Well put!!
OvermodA crux of short-term Federal policy needs to be addressed specifically at the issue of transportation easements across First Nations land. This must include a categorical discussion of the 'rights' of different kinds of transportation to cross, and the rights (or rationales) of the Government to ensure them if compromised for any reason.
Doesn't all of this already exist as a matter of law? I had assumed that the blockades are illegal, but the law is being violated and not enforced.
Since much of the current discussion appears to be focused in this thread:
As an honorary Canadian, I'll say this, and little more:
A crux of short-term Federal policy needs to be addressed specifically at the issue of transportation easements across First Nations land. This must include a categorical discussion of the 'rights' of different kinds of transportation to cross, and the rights (or rationales) of the Government to ensure them if compromised for any reason.
Note that this is different both from autonomous control over the 'lands' involved, or from any right or privilege for the First Nations to interdict it unilaterally hereafter.
No other issues but this should be, or need be, discussed in conjunction. Expedient or otherwise.
The Government may then generate 'hard' policies regarding what happens if the right of passage is compromised in some way -- including the use of force or presence to allow free and safe passage of traffic. (This appears to be implicit for users of the 401..)
If there are subsequent protests that block traffic, they can be treated reasonably objectively with respect to use of force or policing authority permitted the Government of Canada.
Without resolving this issue specifically, I see no good (or particularly effective) end to the slippery-slope development of the current #blockade 'solidarity' movement. I also think it both politically and ethically preferable to the logical alternatives of passing more relatively-silly C51/C309 style repressive legislation on 'unpopular' cohorts in Canadian society ... but continue, of course, to defer quietly to Canadian rights to continue to elect the democracy they deserve, and enjoy the consequences thereof.
Euclid But with the pipeline issue apparently just a pretext to address a seemingly endless list of grievances,...
And therein lies the quandry...
Ulrich It's a very fine line. I don't fault him for taking a careful approach. This is a powder keg that could very easily turn into something far worse than blockades. I'm hoping the government continues to reach out to First Nations to address ongoing land claim and other concerns. If the indigenous people can see that good faith efforts are being made then I think the blockades will come down. Everyone involved realizes there's no quick fix to this. Some of the issues in contention have been going on for hundreds of years, and they likely won't be resolved in the next ten.
It's a very fine line. I don't fault him for taking a careful approach. This is a powder keg that could very easily turn into something far worse than blockades. I'm hoping the government continues to reach out to First Nations to address ongoing land claim and other concerns. If the indigenous people can see that good faith efforts are being made then I think the blockades will come down. Everyone involved realizes there's no quick fix to this. Some of the issues in contention have been going on for hundreds of years, and they likely won't be resolved in the next ten.
This must end soon, but the protestors are saying that this shutdown is accomplishing exactly what they want, that is to draw attention by making the non-indiginous population feel the pain of shortages and traffic jams. The objective is to propell the non-indiginous population into driving the Government into action to make concessions to the protesters.
However, the protester demands are widely recognized as being based on agendas such as carbon neutrality, and there is a lot of resistance to those agendas by the non-indiginous population. So inconveniencing the non-indiginous population may backfire and cause them to demand that the protests end.
So I belive that the longer this drags on, the more likely it will be to end in violence and loss of life. The police already ended one blockade without violence. So, it is time to end all of the blockades before rising tensions cause it to spin out of control.
csxns Ulrich The protestors clearly have the upper hand as most evidently have nothing better to do with their time.. like holding down a job. Sounds like the protestors here in the USA too.
Ulrich The protestors clearly have the upper hand as most evidently have nothing better to do with their time.. like holding down a job.
Sounds like the protestors here in the USA too.
I don't know what it's like in Canada but the unemployment rates on some of the reservations in the United States have been around 30% and higher for decades.
Last week, the news was that Justin Trudeau said that the blockades need to come down. I took that to mean that he was ordering that the blockades be removed by the government. Next the police forced the removal of one blockade and the oppostion reacted by adding more blockades. So I assume the need for the blockaces to come down is just an ongoing fact of their status, and not the start of taking them down.
This kind of government appeasement is bound to embolden the protesters to stregthen their resistance to a settlement. At the same time, it is angering the non-protesting citizens and increasing their demand for action from the Government to uphold their rights to not be inconvenienced by illegal actions of the protesters. So, Mr. Trudeau's appeasement is building pressure toward the very sort of violence that he says he must avoid.
UlrichThe protestors clearly have the upper hand as most evidently have nothing better to do with their time.. like holding down a job.
Russell
Still many in place although not sure how many as its a fluid situation with some going up and some going down. Even the one in Belleville isn't completely gone as there are still protestors and a heavy police presence.
This is turning into a game of wack-a-mole..The protestors clearly have the upper hand as most evidently have nothing better to do with their time.. like holding down a job.
Ulrich No, new blockades are showing up. One now set up not far from Bayview Junction, between Hamilton and Aldershot. And once again the police are loathe to move in to enforce the injunction. They're blockading roads now too. Hopefully the police step up their enforcement..
No, new blockades are showing up. One now set up not far from Bayview Junction, between Hamilton and Aldershot. And once again the police are loathe to move in to enforce the injunction. They're blockading roads now too. Hopefully the police step up their enforcement..
If only one was removed yesterday, there must still be many in place. The hereditary chiefs have been saying they will not remove them until the RCMP withdraws from traditional lands.
Have all the Canadian railroad blockades been removed? If not, how many have been removed and how many remain? If they all have been removed, how many were there?
The Liberals are in a comfortable minority as the NDP doesn't have the resources for another election any time soon, and the Conservatives need to find another leader before going into the next election. So neither of the major opposition parties is going to be quick on the trigger on a vote of nonconfidence.
In retrospect Trudeau handled this situation relatively well. Hindsight is of course always 20/20, and he likely could have acted sooner on the blockades by having the RCMP respond quicker to pulling out of the disputed territory. It's not over yet, but we're getting there...
Also good to see that CN and CP (and Ontario Northland) were able to work closely together to get some supplies through. That speaks volumes for how good our rail system as a whole really is.. competitors working together on short notice to make it happen. Well done CN, CP and ONR!
Lithonia Operator In both threads about this, the Liberal government is taking a beating. But it must be remembered that this government was elected by a majority of Canadians.
In both threads about this, the Liberal government is taking a beating. But it must be remembered that this government was elected by a majority of Canadians.
In the 2019 Canadian Federal election the Liberal Party received 33.1% of the vote and won 46.4% of the seats.
The Conservative Party received 34.4% of the vote but only won 35.8% of the seats.
The Liberals have decided to continue forward as a minority government, on a bill-to-bill basis. As long as they attract sufficient support from the other parties they will continue to govern, perhaps for another 4 years.
At any time any one of the other parties could call for a vote of no confidence, and if they all band together and out-vote the Liberals Parliament would be dissolved and we would have another election.
For the record, I voted for one of the 'fringe' parties. None of the 'big three' (Cons, Libs, NDP) currently appeal to me for a variety of reasons, and in my Alberta riding it doesn't matter, the Conservative candidate always wins anyway.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
The interesting issue with the Teck project -- which may well involve contractual issues or obligations of which I'm naturally unaware -- is that getting approval to proceed with the mining project and actually starting to mine the sands are two very different things. As with the Norwegian part of the North Sea oil fields, you might easily want to sit on your hands, perhaps for decades, to see if the markets for the product of tar-sand refining recover.
Instead we see (if I understand the gist correctly) the whole thing being terminated, presumably with the whole application process having to be repeated if Teck ultimately decides to proceed with mining later, and the whole of the early development and legal expense having to be costed-down or written off. Perhaps PJS1 has specific knowledge into what this might entail 'behind the scenes'.
Euclid Teck Resources has spent nine years and over a billion dollars navigating the regulatory process for a new oil sands mine in Canada, and they have pulled the plug on the $15-billion project due to investor uncertainty arising from Canadian opposition to fossil fuels related to climate change. https://globalnews.ca/news/6588026/teck-frontier-oilsands-mine-cancelled/
Teck Resources has spent nine years and over a billion dollars navigating the regulatory process for a new oil sands mine in Canada, and they have pulled the plug on the $15-billion project due to investor uncertainty arising from Canadian opposition to fossil fuels related to climate change.
https://globalnews.ca/news/6588026/teck-frontier-oilsands-mine-cancelled/
There's more to this picture than meets the eye.
When the Frontier Mine was first proposed world oil prices were spiking to well over $100 USD/barrel. Today they are barely half that.
Like the other large oilsands mines currently in operation, Frontier would most likely earn an operating profit at current oil prices. But it appeared to need significantly higher oil prices to justify the massive $20 Billion investment required to construct it.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/teck-frontier-1.5473370
A quote from the article:
Project's economic viability questioned In July 2019, a joint federal-provincial review panel recommended the mine be approved, saying the economic benefits outweighed what it described as significant adverse environmental impacts. However, a January report from the Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis made the case that Teck's application showed a "reckless disregard for the facts regarding oil prices in Canada." The joint-review panel relied on a long-term oil price projection of more than $95 US per barrel provided by Teck, the IEEFA wrote, about $40 US higher than current prices and around $20 US higher than other forecasts.
In July 2019, a joint federal-provincial review panel recommended the mine be approved, saying the economic benefits outweighed what it described as significant adverse environmental impacts.
However, a January report from the Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis made the case that Teck's application showed a "reckless disregard for the facts regarding oil prices in Canada."
The joint-review panel relied on a long-term oil price projection of more than $95 US per barrel provided by Teck, the IEEFA wrote, about $40 US higher than current prices and around $20 US higher than other forecasts.
Frontier has become a cause-celebre out here over the past six months. But a year ago most Canadians didn't even know what it was.
I suppose we'll never know whether or not the Federal government was going to approve it.
Technically a plurality.
While the US has a "simple" us vs. them 2-party system, there are several major parties in Canada, the three main parties being the Liberal, Conservative and New Democratic (NDP) parties. There's also the regional Bloc Quebecois. There's also several minority parties like the Green Party, which does run candidates in every local election and actually managed a historic 3 MPs (members of parliament) elected in the last election, and other fringe parties that run candidates in various local elections but have no real change of winning, ever.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
I think this crisis will be resolved peacefully. I surely hope so.
It is amazing how this is not being reported in US media. But then, the election is dominating everything. And lord knows, when election season is a mere two years long, you don't want to needlessly squander precious seconds of air time on something else!
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/police-move-in-on-blockade-in-tyendinaga-ont-take-protesters-into-custody-1.4824709
I conclude that the legal point about land rights of the indigenous people versus the rights of the government is debatable. I conclude that because neither side has at least articulated a clear position on the matter. Also, the point may be moot depending on how strong the influence of public opinion becomes as each side speaks. Clarification of rights may not be necessary or practical if both sides claim to have the rights.
A few days ago, it was reported that RCMP would pull out of the disputed territory, thus clearing the way for the hereditary chiefs to honor their promise to take down the barricades once the RCMP pulled out. Since then, the hereditary chiefs seem to be adding more conditions to their commitment to take down the barricades; such as a need to meet with the government to engage in more negotiation, and the need to cease working on the pipeline in the disputed territory.
Also since the offer to take down the barricades was made, it seems that the RCMP has begun to pull out of the disputed territory, but has not completed that move. So it is not clear whether they intend to honor their commitment.
Also, the government has stated that they will not order the RCMP to take down the barricades because (they say) that the RCMP has the duty to enforce the injunctions after they have been made. Therefore, according to the government, no other order compelling the RCMP to take action is necessary.
This interview sheds some light on the current state of the standoff. I see no reason to conclude that a settlement is imminent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfVbASfyNdo
I tried to find news of an estimate of economic cost of this protest. Has there ever been a case like this where this much commerce has been halted as a political protest?
Again, I think "selfishness" is a bit harsh. "Self-interest" is more accurate, in my opinion anyway. We all operate on self-interest, it's perfectly normal and human to do so. Someone once said even Mother Theresa operated on self-interest, her humanitarian efforts did a lot of good, but doing them did give her a lot of personal satisfaction.
The point is, sooner or later you have to think of yourself and your own people first, and not be overly concerned with others, which doesn't necessarily mean "Hooray for me and to hell with everyone else!" "Charity begins at home" after all.
Overmod wrote: which leads me to wonder if I misunderstood the point of the comment.
At the time I posted the original comment, my thinking was on the motives of the nondirectly involved public.
You have supporters and non-supporters. Supporters having sympathy for the movement. Non-supporters being self explanatory.
As shortages on store shelves grow, this will directly impact the supporters. Eventually the personal priorities of the supporters will begin to erode their sympathies, and they will change sides.
That kind of selfishness.
When I was raised I was taught to believe there was a certain amount of hostility inherent within selfishness.. Over the years I encountered enough people that didn't give a darn about what was important to me, yet did not directly dislike me, that I had to revise that belief.
Those people were simply so stuck on themselves that there was no room for them to have any feelings regarding me, positive or negative. IT WAS ONLY A MATTER OF THEIR OWN PRIORITIES.
That kind of "selfishness"..
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