EuclidHowever, they are still required to approach prepared to stop; and in the case of looking for the smallest defects caused by flooding, the speed at which one could be prepared to stop short would be something around walking speed or 3 mph. Obviously the train that derailed at Doon was not prepared to stop, and was traveling far too fast to stop short of any observed defect.
Baloney.
Many of the posters on this list know there was a defect there because, after the fact, in hindsight, something happened. The trick is knowing where something will fail BEFORE it fails. Many posters think is obvious because there is standing water around. Having never ridden a train they don't realize that there could be 50 miles of the route that are near streams or in areas that were flooded. There doesn't appear to have been a bridge, don't know if there was a culvert there, from the pictures it doesn't appear to ever have been under water. Railroads follow streams for hundreds of miles. Other than the fact that there is water around there what would have told them there would be a problem on that train at that point? How many dozen other trains had been operating safely for how many days over that track prior to the incident?
There have been cases where several states have flooded out for MONTHS. Would you have every train operate at 4 mph over a 3 or 4 state area for months?
EuclidIf the crew of that train had been told by a supervisor to not slow down at the flood site, would that have overridden the obligation of the crew to approach prepared to stop short of any track defects?
Nobody is going to be stupid enough to do that.
Question for all those "slow down every place" people. In the winter time, if you are driving down the highway, do you slow down to a crawl every time you drive over a bridge with a "Bridge ices before roadway" signs? If you expect the crew to do that why don't you?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Murphy Siding Jeff- Do you contrue this to mean that any train operating in northwest Iowa needs to be crawling at 10 mph any time there is rain in the forcast, the way some on here are suggesting?
Jeff- Do you contrue this to mean that any train operating in northwest Iowa needs to be crawling at 10 mph any time there is rain in the forcast, the way some on here are suggesting?
Nobody has suggested that trains operating in northwest Iowa need to be crawling at 10 mph any time there is rain in the forecast.
jeffhergert If you're going to quote rules, at least quote the appropiate ones. Doubt or uncertainty may not be applicable if the track had recently been inspected. GCOR 6.21 Precautions Against Unusual Conditions Protect trains and engines against any known condition that may interfere with their safety. When conditions restrict visibility, regulate speed to ensure that crew members can observe and comply with signal indications. In unusually heavy rain, storm, or high water, trains and engines must approach bridges, culverts, and other potentially hazardous points prepared to stop. If they cannot proceed safely, they must stop until it is safe to resume movement.Advise the train dispatcher of such conditions by the first available means of communication. 6.21.1 Protection Against Defects If any defect or condition that might cause an accident is discovered on tracks, bridges, or culverts, or if any crew member believes that the train or engine has passed over a dangerous defect, the crew member must immediately notify the train dispatcher and provide protection if necessary. 6.21.2 Water Above Rail Do not operate trains and engines over tracks submerged in water until the track has been inspected and verified as safe. Operate engines at 5 MPH or less when water is above the top of the rail. If water is more than 3 inches above the top of the rail, a mechanical department supervisor must authorize the movement. 6.21.3 Track Obstruction / Unusual Conditions When a train is advised in the words, “Between (location) and (location) be governed by Rule 6.21.3”, within the specified limits train must move as directed in the special instructions. Jeff
If you're going to quote rules, at least quote the appropiate ones. Doubt or uncertainty may not be applicable if the track had recently been inspected.
GCOR
6.21 Precautions Against Unusual Conditions Protect trains and engines against any known condition that may interfere with their safety. When conditions restrict visibility, regulate speed to ensure that crew members can observe and comply with signal indications. In unusually heavy rain, storm, or high water, trains and engines must approach bridges, culverts, and other potentially hazardous points prepared to stop. If they cannot proceed safely, they must stop until it is safe to resume movement.Advise the train dispatcher of such conditions by the first available means of communication.
6.21.1 Protection Against Defects If any defect or condition that might cause an accident is discovered on tracks, bridges, or culverts, or if any crew member believes that the train or engine has passed over a dangerous defect, the crew member must immediately notify the train dispatcher and provide protection if necessary.
6.21.2 Water Above Rail Do not operate trains and engines over tracks submerged in water until the track has been inspected and verified as safe. Operate engines at 5 MPH or less when water is above the top of the rail. If water is more than 3 inches above the top of the rail, a mechanical department supervisor must authorize the movement.
6.21.3 Track Obstruction / Unusual Conditions When a train is advised in the words, “Between (location) and (location) be governed by Rule 6.21.3”, within the specified limits train must move as directed in the special instructions.
Jeff
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
From rule 6.21
“In unusually heavy rain, storm, or high water, trains and engines must approach bridges, culverts, and other potentially hazardous points prepared to stop.”
It seems that the rule only addresses the presence of track defects that can be seen, and requires that the train be prepared to stop short if such defects are seen. There may be a defect that cannot be seen, so the crew would not be expected to see it and stop short.
However, they are still required to approach prepared to stop; and in the case of looking for the smallest defects caused by flooding, the speed at which one could be prepared to stop short would be something around walking speed or 3 mph. Obviously the train that derailed at Doon was not prepared to stop, and was traveling far too fast to stop short of any observed defect.
If the crew of that train had been told by a supervisor to not slow down at the flood site, would that have overridden the obligation of the crew to approach prepared to stop short of any track defects?
SD70Dude Thanks! I had forgotten about that one. Good thing they were there, the rails didn't break so the block would still have shown clear.
Thanks! I had forgotten about that one.
Good thing they were there, the rails didn't break so the block would still have shown clear.
Indeed - in fact, a head end crew likely wouldn't have noticed anything wrong if they arrived at the beginning of the video. I suspect the passing of the train would have hastened the subsidence.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Thank You.
Assuming the subgrade was saturated, the smart thing to do would be to slow down to something like 10mph. That puts less stress on a weakened structure. But that would delay the trains, causing all sorts of problems such as recrews, bad meets and the like, and the folks back in the office will not meet their personal measurement targets used for bonus calculations. So, no slow order issued.
If the train crew does the sensible thing and slow down, on at least certain roads they are liable to get disciplined for delaying trains. After all, if nothing went wrong it seems obvious to those in the ivory tower that slowing down was unnecessary.
SD70DudeAnother instance I saw involved a beaver plugging a culvert
Canadian beavers official motto:
"Disrupting Canadian railway travel since 1852"*
*Founding date of Grand Trunk Railway, CN's earliest predecessor.
Crack passenger train or branchline mixed, it mattered not to them.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Yes, it is true that saturated and/or unstable roadbed is not always obviously visible. But sometimes it is. Signs would include shifted or sunk track, or erosion of the side of the grade.
I have been over track not long after a flash flood raised the water level over the rail (and then receded to a normal level), and while the track and subgrade appeared normal there were pieces of debris hung up on top of and between the rails. Earlier that day we had been contacted by the Dispatcher and told to be on the lookout for flood damage, as weather and rainfall reports meant it was likely that flash floods would have occurred. We turned that area in, and later found out that a culvert and nearby subgrade needed repairs, fortunately we passed over without derailing.
Another instance I saw involved a beaver plugging a culvert, and the water level quickly rose almost to the ties. In that case it was obvious that the water had risen quickly as grass and other small green plants could be seen underwater. Another train ahead of us noticed this and turned it in, and by the time we got there a Foreman was on site to walk trains across the flooded area, with work equipment enroute.
SD70Dude Restricted speed would fulfill the requirements of most definitions of "creeping along". S.P.H.R.S. (stop and proceed on hand or radio signals) is another version, normally found in special instructions for handling dimensional moves.
Restricted speed would fulfill the requirements of most definitions of "creeping along".
S.P.H.R.S. (stop and proceed on hand or radio signals) is another version, normally found in special instructions for handling dimensional moves.
If someone looked at the flood and ordered a slower speed, I am sure they would not tell the crew to creep through the flood zone. But for purposes of discussion for a need to slow down, why is there a need for us to stipulate a specific speed? And if there is that need for pupose of discussion, what speed are we supposed to stipulate? In view of this context, I think creep works fine. "Walking speed works fine too. I see that as about equal to creeping speed. Maybe another way to put it is way, way slower than 49 mph.
If there is a soft spot that would derail a train moving over 20 mph, and if you pass at 6 mph, you will not discover the soft spot. You will never know if there was any need to slow down at all. But if you do derail an oil train at a slow speed, it would be nice to not spill or ignite any oil. So what speed would that be?
I would suggest running about 6-10 mph and keeping a close eye on the track during the passage, and then checking carefully after passage.
Can't say that I've ever seen the word "creep" with regard to speed on the railroad.
I have seen the term "walking speed."
Murphy Siding petitnj USOR Rule A "Safety (is) the most important element(s) in preforming duties. When in doubt, the safe course must be taken". GCOR Rule 1.1 "Safety is the most important element in performing duties... 1.1.1 In case of doubt or uncertainty, take the safe course." These are the only two rule books and BNSF uses GCOR. Crews need to be aware of uncertain conditions and slow down. Railroading is not a game of "let's see how close to the speed limit we can go." Even though autos play this game, railroads shouldn't. We continue to have accident after accident where situational awareness is lost and the train doesn't slow down when in doubt. And blasting thru flooded fields at 4:30 in the morning is a good time to doubt what is going on. I guess I'm not seeing the word "creep" in there. Also,is this a newly restored track? I'm wondering where that info is coming from?
petitnj USOR Rule A "Safety (is) the most important element(s) in preforming duties. When in doubt, the safe course must be taken". GCOR Rule 1.1 "Safety is the most important element in performing duties... 1.1.1 In case of doubt or uncertainty, take the safe course." These are the only two rule books and BNSF uses GCOR. Crews need to be aware of uncertain conditions and slow down. Railroading is not a game of "let's see how close to the speed limit we can go." Even though autos play this game, railroads shouldn't. We continue to have accident after accident where situational awareness is lost and the train doesn't slow down when in doubt. And blasting thru flooded fields at 4:30 in the morning is a good time to doubt what is going on.
USOR Rule A "Safety (is) the most important element(s) in preforming duties. When in doubt, the safe course must be taken". GCOR Rule 1.1 "Safety is the most important element in performing duties... 1.1.1 In case of doubt or uncertainty, take the safe course." These are the only two rule books and BNSF uses GCOR. Crews need to be aware of uncertain conditions and slow down. Railroading is not a game of "let's see how close to the speed limit we can go." Even though autos play this game, railroads shouldn't. We continue to have accident after accident where situational awareness is lost and the train doesn't slow down when in doubt. And blasting thru flooded fields at 4:30 in the morning is a good time to doubt what is going on.
I guess I'm not seeing the word "creep" in there. Also,is this a newly restored track? I'm wondering where that info is coming from?
Creep means to move slowly and carefully. It is not defined in terms of speed. It only requires common sense judgement, just like the rule phrase: “In case of doubt or uncertainty, take the safe course." The safe course in terms of speed does not require a specific rate of speed. It only requires a speed that provides the safe course in the case of doubt or uncertainty. A speed that moves slowly and carefully sounds just right for the safe course during times of doubt or uncertainty.
If the flood conditions warranted slowing down because of saturated or undermined roadbed; if they slowed down at all, obviously it was not slow enough, considering that the derailment put 36 cars on the ground.
n012944 petitnj USOR Rule A "Safety (is) the most important element(s) in preforming duties. When in doubt, the safe course must be taken". GCOR Rule 1.1 "Safety is the most important element in performing duties... 1.1.1 In case of doubt or uncertainty, take the safe course." These are the only two rule books and BNSF uses GCOR. Crews need to be aware of uncertain conditions and slow down. Railroading is not a game of "let's see how close to the speed limit we can go." Even though autos play this game, railroads shouldn't. We continue to have accident after accident where situational awareness is lost and the train doesn't slow down when in doubt. And blasting thru flooded fields at 4:30 in the morning is a good time to doubt what is going on. It is good to know that you have looked at the download and know how fast the train was going at the time of the derailment. What was the offical tale of the tape when it came to the speed when the air dumped?
It is good to know that you have looked at the download and know how fast the train was going at the time of the derailment. What was the offical tale of the tape when it came to the speed when the air dumped?
Had to be doing at least 90 [/sarcasm]
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
An "expensive model collector"
petitnjyes creep is an official speed.
Not defined in any of the rule books I have read. B&O, Chessie, CSX and a number of others.
It looks like ballast has been spread out several feet beyond the ends of the ties, which may indicate recent track restoration. But slowing down to creep speed would be advisable whether or not the track has been recently restored. I have not seen any information stating how high the water was when the train passed, or the maximum height it had been prior to the train passing.
petitnj yes creep is an official speed. If you see water all around on a newly restored track with culverts everywhere, slow down. At some point the crew has to recognize the danger and act accordingly. If we had to issue orders for every possiblity, then a robot could carry out the command. Wait! That is in the offiing with driverless trains. Go to nws.noaa.gov for Doon, IA and look at all the warnings. Rule X covers this -- think!
yes creep is an official speed. If you see water all around on a newly restored track with culverts everywhere, slow down. At some point the crew has to recognize the danger and act accordingly. If we had to issue orders for every possiblity, then a robot could carry out the command. Wait! That is in the offiing with driverless trains. Go to nws.noaa.gov for Doon, IA and look at all the warnings. Rule X covers this -- think!
BaltACD Euclid Murphy Siding petitnj With all the flood warnings and the high water and the hazardous cargo, this train should have crept thru the area. Every once in a while railroaders should use common sense and be cautious. How would you determine when a train needed to creep through an area, and how would you detemine the acceptable speed? I would determine that the train should creep through the area based on the fact that the site is on a fill that is surrounded by water up to the bottom of the ballast. Creep is not an Official Speed.
Euclid Murphy Siding petitnj With all the flood warnings and the high water and the hazardous cargo, this train should have crept thru the area. Every once in a while railroaders should use common sense and be cautious. How would you determine when a train needed to creep through an area, and how would you detemine the acceptable speed? I would determine that the train should creep through the area based on the fact that the site is on a fill that is surrounded by water up to the bottom of the ballast.
Murphy Siding petitnj With all the flood warnings and the high water and the hazardous cargo, this train should have crept thru the area. Every once in a while railroaders should use common sense and be cautious. How would you determine when a train needed to creep through an area, and how would you detemine the acceptable speed?
petitnj With all the flood warnings and the high water and the hazardous cargo, this train should have crept thru the area. Every once in a while railroaders should use common sense and be cautious.
With all the flood warnings and the high water and the hazardous cargo, this train should have crept thru the area. Every once in a while railroaders should use common sense and be cautious.
How would you determine when a train needed to creep through an area, and how would you detemine the acceptable speed?
I would determine that the train should creep through the area based on the fact that the site is on a fill that is surrounded by water up to the bottom of the ballast.
Creep is not an Official Speed.
Officially, I would determine that the train should not exceed 10 mph through the area based on the fact that the site is on a fill that is surrounded by water up to the bottom of the ballast.
NP Eddie The question(s) still are not answered yet and probably not until the NTSB report comes out. 1. Was the track inspected prior to the derailment? 2. Did the train crew know about any restrictions? One or two old ICC reports deal with derailments on skeltonized track or obstructions on the track and the trains were not notified about these problems. Ed Burns Retired Clerk Class 1
The question(s) still are not answered yet and probably not until the NTSB report comes out. 1. Was the track inspected prior to the derailment? 2. Did the train crew know about any restrictions? One or two old ICC reports deal with derailments on skeltonized track or obstructions on the track and the trains were not notified about these problems.
Ed Burns
Retired Clerk Class 1
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.