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box car paint scheme

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 9:26 AM

 

If you mix black and yellow and get green, then your “black” was not black.  It was dark green.  Colors can be neutralized and/or blackened to resemble black, while still being a true color.  But true black is at the dead center of the color wheel, and it is completely neutral, and contains no color.  So if you mix very dark green with yellow, you get a lighter green.  If you mix true black with yellow, you get a lighter yellow. 

 

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Posted by wjstix on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 9:25 AM

tree68
 
Murphy Siding
How could you tell? Every photo I've seen of those was black and white?

 

Well, there were colorized (tinted) photos...

It is a curious problem, though.  We rarely think of how colorful things were "back in the day."

I've found evidence that my house was once painted peach, or something close, with brown trim.  Actually sounds rather attractive.

 

 
Also, railroads kept records of what paint they bought, and had specifications of how freight cars, passenger cars, depots, water towers, etc. were to be painted.
 
Plus, it's not that hard to tell a light colored car from a dark one in a black and white photo, although knowing exactly what colors were used is difficult without other info. For example, it was discovered in the days of black and white TV that under studio lighting, pale green actually looked whiter than white - pure white tended to look light gray.
 
When artificial paint became common in the 1860's and 1870's, people kinda went nuts painting things. I recall an old episode of "This Old House" where their research showed that a Victorian era house they were working on had originally been painted in something like 13 different colors! Of course, the house had a base color, but there were many different shadings of trim colors.
Stix
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Posted by kenny dorham on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 9:03 AM

Yeah, Lamp Black (to name one) ran VERY Blue.

Ergo....... Smile

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 9:00 AM

I'm just going to tell myself that yellow and black combined make dark yellow. Whistling

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 8:19 AM

Murphy Siding
We were taught that mixing the primary colors of blue and yellow gave us green.

And indeed, they do.  But many dyes and paints are actually a mix of colors (just like your inkjet printer), resulting in blacks that will fade to other colors.  Look up fiber reactive dyes (used by tie dye enthusiasts) - you get several options if you want black dye.

With dehusman's example, it's clear that the black pigment doesn't overwhelm the blue in the paint.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 8:00 AM

dehusman
 
Murphy Siding
Just a slight disagreement- I don't think yellow and black together would make green.

 

Don't disagree with me, find Peabody and Sherman, borrow the Way-back machine and go argue with the people who published paint formulas back in the 1800's.  

Or....

just mix some yellow and black paint:

 

For real? We were taught that mixing the primary colors of blue and yellow gave us green. Now you're making me doubt the usefulness of my elementary education? What’s next? Are you going to tell me that ‘new math’ was just a passing fad?

And how come Mr. Peabody never just up and smacked Sherman and told him to put a cork in it?

 

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Posted by dehusman on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 7:35 AM

Murphy Siding
Just a slight disagreement- I don't think yellow and black together would make green.

Don't disagree with me, find Peabody and Sherman, borrow the Way-back machine and go argue with the people who published paint formulas back in the 1800's.  

Or....

just mix some yellow and black paint:

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, December 18, 2017 10:08 PM

Overmod
... but who would pay extra to get that effect?

Probably the same ones who will pay a fortune for boards off an old, dilapidated barn...

 

LarryWhistling
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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, December 18, 2017 7:04 AM

CShaveRR

We have both silver and black bridges (as well as the "undecorated", or "too-long-ago-decorated" type) here at the Crossroads.  

The newest big bridge involving railroads is blue.  It stands out, for sure!  

We are due to get a couple of new bridges (expanded, really, but involving plenty of new steel) on our main line when they add a third track for the portions of the line that have only two.  Or perhaps the new girders will be pre-stressed concrete.  We should know in a year or so.

 
I assume that you mean South Shore's new bridge over Torrence Avenue and the NS (ex-NKP) main.  I'm used to black, gray, boxcar red or silver on bridges, so that blue really catches your eye.
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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Sunday, December 17, 2017 2:34 PM

Murphy Siding
zugmann

Then there's the people that complain about CorTen structures being "rusty". 

We're starting to see some commercial buildings constructed with panels made out that type steel, sort of pre-rusted. They look like h...... (They look bad.) 

Several years ago, we had a new bank building downtown that was made of pre-rusted metal.  It was supposed to never rust beyond that state, but the panels shed a lot of the rust in rainstorms and it stained the sidewalks around the building, which prompted the city to threaten lawsuits to get them cleaned.

The bank make light of it in their advertising, with:

"Its big, its rusty and its yours."

I responded to them with:

"If it was mine, I'd paint it."

The sidewalks still have a rusty brown cast to them.

 

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, December 17, 2017 2:05 PM

Really? Thats weird.

Our Boreal forests look sick, weakened....they need more CO2 to get healthy.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:54 PM

Murphy Siding
zugmann

Then there's the people that complain about CorTen structures being "rusty".

We're starting to see some commercial buildings constructed with panels made out that type steel, sort of pre-rusted. They look like h...... (They look bad.)

One of the unintended consequences of the Clean Air Act and its successors.  When levels of available sulfur in the atmosphere are too low, the COR-TEN oxide layer (at least for A242, and perhaps for A606-4 and A588) doesn't form with proper strength.  As other components in the alloy are intentionally reactive to speed the oxide film formation, both mechanical damage (USS calls it 'weather damage') and acid rain keep trying to 're-form' the oxide layer, at the expense of course of the underlying metal.  You get not only the splotchy mottling but increased attack into the sections.

Architects and engineers who didn't know the chemistry involved, but thought the Rust Fairy had been blinded by clever metallurgy, were caught short.  Their 'response' has been to pre-rust the panels with the right admixture of pollutants, then install them as noted 'pre-rusted', sometimes with a layer of something containing the right ions sprayed on so joints or field mods can 'heal'.

I now note that a lunatic firm has something called "COR-TEN AZP Raw" which is a high-tech coating applied over plain old Galvalume to give that rusty, splotchy '70s effect.  De gustibus non disputandum est... but who would pay extra to get that effect?

 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, December 17, 2017 12:51 PM

zugmann

Then there's the people that complain about CorTen structures being "rusty".

 

We're starting to see some commercial buildings constructed with panels made out that type steel, sort of pre-rusted. They look like h...... (They look bad.) 

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Posted by zugmann on Sunday, December 17, 2017 11:51 AM

Firelock76
Here in the Richmond area CSX and NS don't seem to do either, there's railroad bridges here that haven't been painted in decades.

Newer brisdges around here are usually that darker red oxide color. Amtrak used to paint their bridges silver (complete with logo).

Then there's the people that complain about CorTen structures being "rusty".

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, December 17, 2017 11:22 AM

From what I know, silver paint is very dense and provides excellent rust protection, the drawback is it's more expensive than black paint.

So, it's basically end users choice, if you've got the money you go silver, if not, you go black.

Here in the Richmond area CSX and NS don't seem to do either, there's railroad bridges here that haven't been painted in decades. 

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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:19 PM

Jim611
On a slightly different subject, why are most railroad bridges in the west painted silver, while most railroad bridges in the east painted black?

Same reason a lot of western roads painted their undercarraiges silver, while eastern roads used black?

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, December 16, 2017 10:57 PM

We have both silver and black bridges (as well as the "undecorated", or "too-long-ago-decorated" type) here at the Crossroads.  

The newest big bridge involving railroads is blue.  It stands out, for sure!  

We are due to get a couple of new bridges (expanded, really, but involving plenty of new steel) on our main line when they add a third track for the portions of the line that have only two.  Or perhaps the new girders will be pre-stressed concrete.  We should know in a year or so.

Carl

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, December 16, 2017 9:20 PM

A fair number are painted silver here - at least last time they were painted.  Many are simply rust red...

Seems like I recall reading of a major bridge over the Ohio River that finally got painted silver...

 

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Jim611 on Saturday, December 16, 2017 9:11 PM

On a slightly different subject, why are most railroad bridges in the west painted silver, while most railroad bridges in the east painted black?

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:03 AM

Uhhhh, I think I'll go to Ace Hardware instead.

There's a great story Groucho Marx told about W.C. Fields.  Groucho was visiting Fields' house and W.C. said "Hey Grouch, I've got something I've gotta show ya!"  They went down to Field's basement. W.C. pushed a button, and a wall panel opened revealing a HUGE secret room stocked with all kinds of liquor.

"What's all this for Bill?"  Groucho asked.

"It's here because of Prohibition!"  W.C. replied.

"Prohibition? Prohibition ended ten years ago!"

"Yeah, I know, but it might come back!"

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Posted by 54light15 on Saturday, December 16, 2017 10:28 AM

If you wish to learn how to make your own paint, here is a very informative video. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZgl2BfCsBg 

 

 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, December 16, 2017 10:06 AM

For those who might be interested I got the "Recipe For Farm Paint" from a book called "Eric Sloane's America,"  and if you're interested in Americana (I suspect most of the folks on this Forum are)  Eric Sloane is a man you should get to know, he's one of my favorite writers on the subject.  If you see any of his books on the subject anywhere grab them, you won't be disappointed!

He was quite the artist as well, here's two sites about him...

www.ericsloane.com

www.ericsloane.org

Well worth looking into.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, December 16, 2017 8:29 AM

dehusman
 
David1005
Railroad cars were traditionally painted the color of the contamination that would get on them. Oil and coal cars were painted black, cement hoppers were painted gray, and boxcars were painted to match the rust that would develope with age.

 

Interesting theory, except that railroads started painting boxcars reddish brown when they were made of wood and wood doesn't rust.  Actually on the wooden cars the metal parts were painted black.

Really the iron oxides were really cheap pigments and since they were already oxidized they didn't change color.  The popular early colors were oxide red, yellow/cream, white, black and green.  Red/brown, yellow, white and black were natural colors.  Cream was white and yellow, green was yellow and black.

 

Just a slight disagreement- I don't think yellow and black together would make green.

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Posted by dehusman on Saturday, December 16, 2017 8:09 AM

David1005
Railroad cars were traditionally painted the color of the contamination that would get on them. Oil and coal cars were painted black, cement hoppers were painted gray, and boxcars were painted to match the rust that would develope with age.

Interesting theory, except that railroads started painting boxcars reddish brown when they were made of wood and wood doesn't rust.  Actually on the wooden cars the metal parts were painted black.

Really the iron oxides were really cheap pigments and since they were already oxidized they didn't change color.  The popular early colors were oxide red, yellow/cream, white, black and green.  Red/brown, yellow, white and black were natural colors.  Cream was white and yellow, green was yellow and black.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, December 15, 2017 9:32 PM

     Didn't the red paint of old contain a lot of lead as a main ingredient to help prevent rust? When I was a kid (long ago and far away...) in the late 60's I lived in Alaska. In the fall, prison inmate work crews would go around and paint all the metal highway bridges. Everyone reffered to the paint used by them as red lead paint. It turned the bridges bright, dark red but they would fade to rusty brown by mid-summer.

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Posted by kenny dorham on Friday, December 15, 2017 8:45 PM

Per usual.....very interesting Info/Responses.

Thank You *:) happy

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, December 15, 2017 10:05 AM

If it didn't have a "See Rock City" ad, it definitely had this ad: "Chew Mail Pouch Tobacco, treat yourself to the best."

As an aside, I've seen birdhouses shaped like barns with a "See Rock City" ad on the roof.  I think that you can find them at Cracker Barrel restaurants.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, December 15, 2017 7:59 AM

samfp1943

 

 
Firelock76

Everyone may find this interesting, it's an 1835 recipe for farm paint.

To Make Farm Paint

Skimmed milk, four pounds or one half-gallon

Lime, six ounces

Linseed oil or neatsfoot, four ounces

Color, one and a half pounds

And for outside painting, add two ounces of slacked lime, oil, and turpentine.

Red oxide was preferred for the color, red clay was also used.

 

 

 

So Right ! That concoction home brewed to paint barns seemed to last longer than the actual structures....And then you get down to the itenerant sign painters. Those were the guys who traveled, mostly in the South, finding the exact structures that they could paint and provide signage for the makers of 'Mail Pouch Tobacco', and of course, [See] 'Rock City'!   My guess is that the 'Burma Shave' signs were pained in a shop, and sent out with individuals who were paid to plant them alongside highways?  Whistling

 

 

"See Rock City"--a barn was not a barn without a Rock City sign.

Even though I visited Chattanooga many times when I was in college, I never went to Rock City--I was a poor student, and did not feel that I could afford the admission.

Johnny

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, December 15, 2017 7:41 AM

Murphy Siding
How could you tell? Every photo I've seen of those was black and white?

Well, there were colorized (tinted) photos...

It is a curious problem, though.  We rarely think of how colorful things were "back in the day."

I've found evidence that my house was once painted peach, or something close, with brown trim.  Actually sounds rather attractive.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, December 15, 2017 7:20 AM

wjstix

BTW in the 1870's -1880's there were a lot of freight and passenger cars painted straw yellow.

 

How could you tell? Every photo I've seen of those was black and white? Whistling

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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