I as I drove home from work I thought I might drive by the old former E.J.& E yard in Waukegan to see if C.N has started ripping up the track.
I drove down South ave and crossed the U.P. Kenosha sub.
The south facing signal is dark.
gebass6Is molten sulphur considered TIH?
Don't believe it is. It's not on this list.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
rdamon Was this C&NW cab signaled territory? I noticed they left the existing signal poles. Maybe this an upgrade to conform with the rest of the system.
tree68 Are there not types of traffic that require PTC, such as those that carry TIH or the like? The line near me might see six or seven trains a day at any one point - yet I'm pretty sure it's PTC ready.
Are there not types of traffic that require PTC, such as those that carry TIH or the like? The line near me might see six or seven trains a day at any one point - yet I'm pretty sure it's PTC ready.
jeffhergert tree68 Are there not types of traffic that require PTC, such as those that carry TIH or the like? The line near me might see six or seven trains a day at any one point - yet I'm pretty sure it's PTC ready. https://www.fra.dot.gov/Page/P0358 From the above link: With limited exceptions and exclusions as described within Subpart I potentially available, PTC is required to be installed and implemented on Class I railroad main lines (i.e., lines with over 5 million gross tons annually) over which any poisonous- or toxic-by-inhalation (PIH/TIH) hazardous materials are transported; and, on any railroad’s main lines over which regularly scheduled passenger intercity or commuter operations are conducted. It is currently estimated this will equate to approximately 70,000 miles of track and will involve approximately 20,000 locomotives. Jeff
https://www.fra.dot.gov/Page/P0358
From the above link:
With limited exceptions and exclusions as described within Subpart I potentially available, PTC is required to be installed and implemented on Class I railroad main lines (i.e., lines with over 5 million gross tons annually) over which any poisonous- or toxic-by-inhalation (PIH/TIH) hazardous materials are transported; and, on any railroad’s main lines over which regularly scheduled passenger intercity or commuter operations are conducted. It is currently estimated this will equate to approximately 70,000 miles of track and will involve approximately 20,000 locomotives.
Jeff
...and those routes are "locked down". That is, if traffic flow changes occur and a certain route is now below the threshold, you can't take PTC coverage off that route.
There was one round of changes where routes with little to no TIH traffic were excluded from the PTC map, but that's it.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
BaltACD jeffhergert Posted by zardoz on Friday, March 17, 2017 4:58 AM I can't imagine why the UP would install PTC on a line that runs maybe 8 trains per day (and NONE of them are passenger). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I noticed on the link someone provided to UP's PTC map that there are some lines that I wouldn't think would require PTC. I'm thinking that they may be getting ready for one person crews on lines equipped with PTC. I'm not thinking necessarily through FRA or other Government fiat, but through future contract provisions with the unions. I believe with the current politcal situation, the railroads feel confident on what they can get in future contracts. Whether through negotiated or imposed conditions. Jeff Can't see it being through negotiated conditions.
jeffhergert Posted by zardoz on Friday, March 17, 2017 4:58 AM I can't imagine why the UP would install PTC on a line that runs maybe 8 trains per day (and NONE of them are passenger). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I noticed on the link someone provided to UP's PTC map that there are some lines that I wouldn't think would require PTC. I'm thinking that they may be getting ready for one person crews on lines equipped with PTC. I'm not thinking necessarily through FRA or other Government fiat, but through future contract provisions with the unions. I believe with the current politcal situation, the railroads feel confident on what they can get in future contracts. Whether through negotiated or imposed conditions. Jeff
Can't see it being through negotiated conditions.
Me neither.
jeffhergertPosted by zardoz on Friday, March 17, 2017 4:58 AM I can't imagine why the UP would install PTC on a line that runs maybe 8 trains per day (and NONE of them are passenger). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I noticed on the link someone provided to UP's PTC map that there are some lines that I wouldn't think would require PTC. I'm thinking that they may be getting ready for one person crews on lines equipped with PTC. I'm not thinking necessarily through FRA or other Government fiat, but through future contract provisions with the unions. I believe with the current politcal situation, the railroads feel confident on what they can get in future contracts. Whether through negotiated or imposed conditions. Jeff
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Posted by zardoz on Friday, March 17, 2017 4:58 AM
jeffhergertUnless a rail breaks, or something else causes the signal block to think it's occupied.
Yep.
gebass6 I took another look at the dark signals. This time I looked for PTC installation.It's funny what you'll find when you know what to look for.https https://postimg.org/image/f7uqh0z0b/ https://postimg.org/image/skre66wpd/ PTC IS installed on the Milwaukee sub.
I took another look at the dark signals.
This time I looked for PTC installation.It's funny what you'll find when you know what to look for.https
https://postimg.org/image/f7uqh0z0b/
https://postimg.org/image/skre66wpd/
PTC IS installed on the Milwaukee sub.
tree68 The variations are going to be endless. The bottom line is that an approach-lit signal is only going to be lit when there's someone there to see it. No trains, no lights.
The variations are going to be endless. The bottom line is that an approach-lit signal is only going to be lit when there's someone there to see it. No trains, no lights.
Unless a rail breaks, or something else causes the signal block to think it's occupied.
OK.
Update on the derailment at K.O.
I drove by the site early this morning on the way to work.
I expected to see light plants lighting up the site.
But there weren't any.
There seemed to be a work train at the site.Too dark.
So I drove by again after work.
It's directly across from a Chevy dealership on Rt 41.
There were a group of wrecked molten sulphur tank cars on the east side of the main.
It was an eastbound train out of Butler.
It derailed almost a mile north of the Lake sub switch.
The news said that 11 cars had derailed.
So it seems that the "walking wounded" had been taken away.
There were no hazmat leaks and the main is now open.
Likely with speed restrictions.
So coal trains to Oak Creek would not have been afected.
Derail crews sure work fast!
tree68an approach-lit signal is only going to be lit when there's someone there to see it.
If it lights, there's usually a train somewhere. But a westward signal can light up when no train is anywhere east of it.
On many (most?) single-track ABS-not-CTC lines, approach-lit signals would light long before a train is in the block on either side of the signal.
Siding A is miles west of Siding B. An eastward train nears the west end of siding A; the westward signal there is lit red, and the westward signal at the east end is lit yellow, and all the approach-lit westward signals to the west end of siding B are lit yellow. When the eastward train has passed siding A, all the westward signals are lit red.
aegrotatioIs this what "approach lit" means? I thought it was some sort of energy/bulb saver, but with LED lamps even that seemed unnecessary.
When I was "commuting" between Shreveport and Los Angeles in the mid-'90s I would often pace then-SP freights on the Sunset Route and watch the behavior of the approach lighting. You could clearly see the 'ripple' of green signals come on ahead of the train, then turn red as the train passed them. I find I can't remember how quickly they went out, but ISTR they stayed red for some distance behind the rear of the train, letting me know I was overtaking a train before I got there.
P______1_______P_____2_______P______3______P______4________P___<
<is a train moving in that direction.P is a signal facing the trainIn this representation the Signal the protects Block 4 is lit - In this instance it will display Clear because of no train ahead. When the train, in it's entirety, passes the signal it will go out unless there is another train in that particular block. By passing the signal protecting Block 4 the circuit is activated that turns ON the signal protecting Block 3, signals protecting Blocks 2 & 1 remain OFF.
If the signals at these locations are bi-directional - the signal for the Opposite directon that would be protecting the unspecified Block 5 (where the train is) would be DARK until the train passed the signal and entered Block 4, it would then display the condition of Block 5 (with the rear of the train being in Block 5 the signal would display its most restricive indication)
aegrotatio (3-15):
Approach lit signals typically are lit anytime a train is WITHIN the signal block, with each signal having insulated joints in the rails for that signal. Note the whitish insulated joint under the ‘lucky’ UP 8888 at CP SP841 PIEDRA on the Sunset Route in Arizona.
That UP 8888 was a tail end DPU unit on a train in the siding. (The train didn’t completely fit in the siding and hung into the CP interlocking). When the train started out of the siding at the far end (moving rightward in the above photo) and onto the mainline again the pictured signal remained lit until the tail end was past the signal at the far end of the siding.
That is the basic concept of approach lit. BNSF has a slight variation of the concept, with some of their signals turning on if the DS lines a train into the CP even though the train may be 50 miles away.
Take care,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
aegrotatio I first noticed dark signals when waiting at Secaucus Junction for the Main Line. The signals would stay lit for a while, then traffic passes, then after a few minutes they turn off. Is this what "approach lit" means? I thought it was some sort of energy/bulb saver, but with LED lamps even that seemed unnecessary.
I first noticed dark signals when waiting at Secaucus Junction for the Main Line. The signals would stay lit for a while, then traffic passes, then after a few minutes they turn off.
Is this what "approach lit" means? I thought it was some sort of energy/bulb saver, but with LED lamps even that seemed unnecessary.
Approach lit was used to conserve power.
The signals are off(dark)until a train is in the area.
If a train is coming toward you and is several blocks away,the lights would be off.
As I gets into a closer block,the signal facing you goes to yellow.
As it enters the block behind the signal,it drops to red.
As the train passes you,the signal turns off.
Unless there is another train following in the distance.
If a train is coming from behind you several blocks,the signal ahead of you will be off.
As the train gets closer it turns green.
As the train passes the signal ahead of you,it turns red.
As the train moves rarther out of the signal block,it shouts off.
Constant lit are always on.
A green shows an unoccupied block
Automatic.ABS.
Change of topic.
Early this morning I learned about a derailment in my area.
I thought it was on C.P. because of so much maintenace equipment on the C.P. C&M.
I was wrong!
It's on the U.P. Milwaukee sub!
At K.O. junction!
4 miles south of the MP 34.14 dark signal!
At Deerpath Rd. and Skokey Valley Rd.(Route 41)
The Milw sub is the second set of tracks west of the lake.
(The blue line is the Kenosha sub and has Metra commuter)
http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/lake-forest/news/ct-six-freight-cars-derail-in-lake-forest-no-injuries-reported-20170315-story.html
https://s11.postimg.org/oy70qo4gz/K_O.jpg
gebass6So I still wonder.Why are two signals dark?
Are they control point (CP)/interlocking, or are they automatics - simply indicating occupancy of the track ahead?
This time I looked for PTC installation.It's funny what you'll find when you know what to look for.
I just didn't know what to look for.
But not all the PTC signals are dark
All the signals for the siding at Park City are lit.
As are the interlocking signals at Upton Jct.
So I still wonder.Why are two signals dark?
jeffhergertApproach lighting isn't an indication of PTC.
That's where I was trying to go....
tree68 gebass6 It seems to be a mark of PTC? There one CP signal on CSX at Utica I can see on a regular basis - and it seems to be lit all of the time.... I don't know if the Chicago Line in NY is on PTC yet, but the signals have all been overhauled, new shelters, antennae, etc. NYC used approach lighting. I don't see any of the automatics, so I don't know if they are approach lit or not.
gebass6 It seems to be a mark of PTC?
There one CP signal on CSX at Utica I can see on a regular basis - and it seems to be lit all of the time.... I don't know if the Chicago Line in NY is on PTC yet, but the signals have all been overhauled, new shelters, antennae, etc.
NYC used approach lighting. I don't see any of the automatics, so I don't know if they are approach lit or not.
Approach lighting isn't an indication of PTC. (The distinctive antenna is.) We have been having the opposite experience. Our waysides have been approach lit for many years. Has they have been working on the signal/PTC interfaces, some signals now are constantly on. Others will turn on without anything in the block. They display the correct aspect for the condition of the block. They are just on when normally they would be dark. I imagine that once PTC is operational the signal maintainers will turn their attention to resetting the approach lit mode.
Using the history it looks like the signal has been dar for a long time. The tower was added in the last year.
From October 2012
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