Casselton Oil Train Wreck

[zugmann]

Euclid

There is a rule involved with how this played out. I am beginning to wonder if I am the only one who realizes this.

You must be.  We bow down to your awesome powers of perception.

[Shadow the Cats owner]

I called a close friend of mine a retired BNSF and ATSF Roadmaster that started his career with the ATSF in 1972 he and my husband have been friends for about 30 years.  I asked him flat out if based on current rules he retired last year after 44 years in if the Oil train could have stopped from the point if the Grain train had announced it had been in emergency from the second the UDE occured.  His answer was a FLAT OUT NO WAY IN HELL even with ECP was that sucker going to stop even in Emergency from 42 MPH.  So unless you have more exp than he does running trains all over the USA and he ran them from Chicago to LA on the Transcon where ever he was needed for 44 years.  He gets tired of as he says keyboard experts that have zero clue how air brakes react when the weather is below 32 degrees also. 

[edblysard]

No one is desperate….frustrated maybe, but not desperate.

You wrote

 “ You don't know it was impossible, and I don't know it was possible.  But I am not insisting that it was possible while you and others are insisting that was not possible.”

So you admit you don’t know, either way.

Now, based on the times you provided, every locomotive engineer here has told you the same thing…I would hazard a guess you are looking at 50 plus years of service at least, so their opinion should have some weight behind it.

I can tell you that, after 20 years of riding around on trains both with and without air brakes, unless the oil train started to brake the very instant the derailment occurred, there is no way he could get stopped…and that’s if every car in the oil train had optimum brake shoes, and perfectly adjusted brake rigging, with no ice or snow on the rails.

We all understand the rule you seem to be hung up on…yes, the grain train should have announced the UDE the instant it occurred…they didn’t because they didn’t know what caused it.

I can speak from experience that a car derailed and on its side fouling the adjacent track is about item number four on my personal “What the heck cause this?” list.

Number one would be snagging a hose on the crossover/switch heater, number two would be a come apart/sloppy knuckles, number three would be a dynamiter and number four would be a derailed car, especially with the signal guy saying I didn’t have all my train on the radio…number one thru three offer no reasons to panic, and no reason to announce anything instantly, the signal guy didn’t say anything about a derailed car being dragged and he does not sound in any way paniced….it isn’t until the signal guy says debris came flying out of the switch heater that a derailed cars moves up to the number one reason.

And by then it was way too late for anything to be done.

Now, everyone here, myself included, realized you could care less what we know, have absolutely no intention of listening to rational debate or the expertise of those that do this for a living, and have an odd personal agenda/ego /self image issue to deal with…and that nothing anyone could possible bring to the discussion will stop your odd ramble.

 

I still don’t understand why people even bother to try with you, myself included, because we all know you are not here to learn, or have a rational discussion, discover something new, stuff like that.

You are simply here to argue, any point and on anything you can, till it has run ragged.

 

For you, it isn’t the end results that counts, it truly is the journey you enjoy, because look at all the fights you can pick along the way!

[n012944]

Euclid

Under this circumstance, it seems to me that safe train handling would have called for an emergency application to cut speed as quickly as possible.   The risk of the emergency application causing a derailment or other problem would be less than the risk of heading into a blind spot that is known to contain a problem which might be fouling equipment. 

The rule calls for immediate action to prevent this type of collision.  When the UDE indicated the possibility of a fouling car, there was a total of 59 seconds available to stop short of that car.  A delay in reacting used up 49 of the 59 seconds available. 

 

From the BNSF train handling rule book.  

 

 

1. 103.6.5  Unplanned Stop

   In order to stop in the shortest possible distance without using an emergency brake application, such as when encountering a sudden block signal change or when being signaled to stop by a flagman or other person, the following procedure must be followed:

   1. Make a brake pipe reduction immediately before making a throttle change.

   2. After the initial brake pipe reduction and train slack has adjusted, throttle must be gradually reduced to IDLE position.

   3. The independent brake must not be allowed to apply while still applying power.

[BaltACD]

Euclid

Shadow the Cats owner

Euclid even with ECP on Air Discs like what Amtrak runs on their passenger cars there is no way in hell that Oil train was going to stop short of that collision from the time they realized that the main was FOULED or heard that the other train had gone into Emergency.  Short of stopping on the main when the other train came into sight there was ZERO chance of this collision not happening.  No train made can stop as fast as you think it can.  You need to quit trying to make physics do things that are impossible.  Your like some of the brokers I deal with they think I can get a driver 200 miles away to a shipper in less than 30 mins before the place closes.

I never suggested what you said in my red highlight above.  It was the engineer of the oil train who first realized that his track was fouled, and that was only 10 seconds from impact.  From the time of the annoucement that the grain train had experienced a UDE was 28 seconds from impact.  From the point where the UDE was recognized was 59 seconds from impact. 

I don't know if the oil train could have stopped in 59 seconds, but I find it strange that there is so much desperation here to insist that it was impossible.  How do you know that?  You don't know it was impossible, and I don't know it was possible.  But I am not insisting that it was possible while you and others are insisting that was not possible. 

There is a rule involved with how this played out.  I am beginning to wonder if I am the only one who realizes this.    

Reality never intrudes into your world does it Bucky!

[n012944]

CMStPnP

Well get out your popcorn and lets watch the actual crash video courtesy of the NTSB, from both trains.   I'll bet it even ends the argument above............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhraoVIJ1OE

 

 

 

Did you even bother to read the first post of this thread?  It has the video links in it, and the video is the basis for Euclid's argument.

[Euclid]

Shadow the Cats owner

Euclid even with ECP on Air Discs like what Amtrak runs on their passenger cars there is no way in hell that Oil train was going to stop short of that collision from the time they realized that the main was FOULED or heard that the other train had gone into Emergency.  Short of stopping on the main when the other train came into sight there was ZERO chance of this collision not happening.  No train made can stop as fast as you think it can.  You need to quit trying to make physics do things that are impossible.  Your like some of the brokers I deal with they think I can get a driver 200 miles away to a shipper in less than 30 mins before the place closes. 

I never suggested what you said in my red highlight above.  It was the engineer of the oil train who first realized that his track was fouled, and that was only 10 seconds from impact.  From the time of the annoucement that the grain train had experienced a UDE was 28 seconds from impact.  From the point where the UDE was recognized was 59 seconds from impact. 

I don't know if the oil train could have stopped in 59 seconds, but I find it strange that there is so much desperation here to insist that it was impossible.  How do you know that?  You don't know it was impossible, and I don't know it was possible.  But I am not insisting that it was possible while you and others are insisting that was not possible. 

There is a rule involved with how this played out.  I am beginning to wonder if I am the only one who realizes this.     

[n012944]

Euclid

 

 

BaltACD

Stopping distance for 14K + tons even in emergency is well over 1 train length. 

 

 

From what speed at start of emergency application?

 

[Norm48327]

Euclid

The oil train at Casselton had .688 miles available for stopping.

Unfortunately, the derailed hopper was only .666 miles away.

[Shadow the Cats owner]

Euclid even with ECP on Air Discs like what Amtrak runs on their passenger cars there is no way in hell that Oil train was going to stop short of that collision from the time they realized that the main was FOULED or heard that the other train had gone into Emergency.  Short of stopping on the main when the other train came into sight there was ZERO chance of this collision not happening.  No train made can stop as fast as you think it can.  You need to quit trying to make physics do things that are impossible.  Your like some of the brokers I deal with they think I can get a driver 200 miles away to a shipper in less than 30 mins before the place closes. 

[tree68]

Folks, folks, folks.  We all know that Bucky has all the answers.  No amount of facts or real-life experience will stand in the way of his conclusions.

As tough as it is to ignore him, perhaps that's the best course of action...  

 

[Euclid]

BaltACD

 

Euclid

BaltACD

While time is critical - there is no way the laws of physics prevent the Oil Train from striking the derail car in the Grain Train - even if full 'foresight' was conveyed between all the parties involved instanteously.

To be certain, you would have to know how many seconds it would have taken to stop the oil train with an emergency application at 42 mph. 

Since you are certain, please tell me how many seconds the stop would have required starting with an emergency application at 42 mph.

 

 

A damn sight more than was available.  Stopping distance for 14K + tons even in emergency is well over 1 train length.  A 100 car Oil train has a length of approximately 6200 feet.

Here is how zardoz answered the question about stopping distance in 2006: 

“A full service application will stop a loaded coal train going 50mph on flat ground in about 1.5 miles; an emergency application will stop it in about half of that distance.” 

So that would be ¾ mile stopping distance at 50 mph.   If that is true, it should be well under ¾ mile when starting from 42 mph.   The oil train at Casselton had .688 miles available for stopping.  So it looks like stopping would have been quite possible.   

But, in any case, the rules do not give the option of not taking action just because you speculate that there is not enough distance to stop short of the obstruction. 

[Deggesty]

Norm48327

Snapping Turtles are known to be tenacious and not let go. They are pikers compared to Bucky.

 

I have been given to understand that they let go if it thunders or when the sun goes down. 

[BaltACD]

Euclid

BaltACD

Stopping distance for 14K + tons even in emergency is well over 1 train length.

From what speed at start of emergency application?

From keyboard speed.

[Norm48327]

Snapping Turtles are known to be tenacious and not let go. They are pikers compared to Bucky.

[Euclid]

BaltACD

Stopping distance for 14K + tons even in emergency is well over 1 train length. 

From what speed at start of emergency application?

[BaltACD]

Euclid

BaltACD

While time is critical - there is no way the laws of physics prevent the Oil Train from striking the derail car in the Grain Train - even if full 'foresight' was conveyed between all the parties involved instanteously.

To be certain, you would have to know how many seconds it would have taken to stop the oil train with an emergency application at 42 mph. 

Since you are certain, please tell me how many seconds the stop would have required starting with an emergency application at 42 mph.

A damn sight more than was available.  Stopping distance for 14K + tons even in emergency is well over 1 train length.  A 100 car Oil train has a length of approximately 6200 feet.

[Euclid]

BaltACD

While time is critical - there is no way the laws of physics prevent the Oil Train from striking the derail car in the Grain Train - even if full 'foresight' was conveyed between all the parties involved instanteously.

To be certain, you would have to know how many seconds it would have taken to stop the oil train with an emergency application at 42 mph. 

Since you are certain, please tell me how many seconds the stop would have required starting with an emergency application at 42 mph. 

[BaltACD]

Video indicates that Grain train was derailed 15 seconds before the Emergency Application.  At the time of the UDE the Oil train was 'visually' approximately 1/4 mile from the head end of the Grain Train and reported to be moving a 42 MPH.

Head End of the Oil train passes the Head End of the Grain Train 38 seconds after the derailment and 23 seconds after the Grain Train went into emergency.  While time is critical - there is no way the laws of physics prevent the Oil Train from striking the derail car in the Grain Train - even if full 'foresight' was conveyed between all the parties involved instanteously.  Human beings take a little longer to recognize their situation and then communicate it to others.

[Euclid]

In that CSX derailment in Maryville, TN, a couple years ago, the car was dragged nine miles and caught fire along the way. 

[NP Eddie]

I should have added that sometimes a derailed car is dragged some distance before the car breaks the train line. There was a derailment at Coon Creek some years ago where a train off the Hinckley Sub dragged a car along straight train before derailing in the switches at Coon Creek. 

Ed Burns

[NP Eddie]

ALL:

As a retired professional railroader, both trains were handled properly--in other words things just happen and the opposing train crew had no time to react. An example of this was the 1953 triple derailment at Conneaut, Ohio. 

An engineer told me that he was handling the NCL on double track between Northtown and Staples. He was a distance (he did not tell how much) when an opposing freight told me they went into emergency. The NCL did manage to stop in time to avoid hitting derailed freight cars.

Ed Burns

[Euclid]

Murphy Siding

 

Euclid

I don’t know if there was time to stop the oil train short of the derailed car. ............ I think there is a good chance that 59 seconds would have been enough time to stop the oil train short of the fouling car............. 

 

 

 

 

Yes- the answer is no. Do you proofread your posts before you hit the button?

There is no conflict in what I said there.  When I say that I think there is a good chance of stopping within 59 seconds, it is just my opinion.  When I say I don't know if 59 seconds was enough time, I mean just that.  I have an opinion, but I am not asserting it as fact.  The words mean exactly what I intend.  And yes, I did proofread those phrases. 

Others have said "there is no way that oil train would have stopped in time."  That is an assertion of fact, and I am not doing that.  I would ask those who are so sure that they assert it as fact, to prove it if they are so sure.   

[Euclid]

Electroliner 1935

 

Ok. Two options: 1, They didn't follow the rules. So what does that mean. Are you suggesting that had they followed the rules, the collision would not have happened? Or should they be punished for not following the rules. Period?

2. They followed the rules and the rules allowed them to continue into the collision. Or they followed the rules and it would not have made any difference in the outcome?

Electroliner 1935,

As I mentioned, I do not know what rules applied so I cannot conclude that any rules were violated.  I suspect that Rule “Rule 6.23 Emergency Stop or Severe Slack Action” may apply because it fits the scenario, but I do not know for sure it if does apply to the location of the Casselton wreck on the BNSF. 

I also do not understand why two parts of the rule appear to be in conflict with each other.  But if a rule was in place that called for immediate radio notification to the oil train, then I would conclude that the engineer of the grain train did not comply with that rule.  I also, do not know if the radio use by the maintainer prevented the engineer of the grain train from warning the oil train engineer sooner. 

I do not know if the oil train engineer broke any rules because I do not know what the rules called for him to do in response to the warning.  This is because part of the rule calls for the crew of the disabled train to use a fusee to flag the approaching oil train; and another part of the rule allows the engineer to pass the disabled train without stopping if it runs at restricted speed.  With that rule, if there is not time to get down to restricted speed before passing the disabled train, I do not know how that issue is to be addressed.

I do know that the total time available to react to the danger was 59 seconds, and that 49 of those 59 seconds were not used for reaction to the danger.  Of course, I do not know if 59 seconds was enough time to stop the oil train, but in my opinion, there is a very good chance that it would have been enough time.  But I doubt that any definitive answer to the stopping time needed for the oil train will be forthcoming without a very good test using an identical train on that same track, in the same weather. 

[CMStPnP]

Well get out your popcorn and lets watch the actual crash video courtesy of the NTSB, from both trains.   I'll bet it even ends the argument above............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhraoVIJ1OE

 

[Murphy Siding]

Euclid

 

 

Murphy Siding

    I've read on these very forums that if you were to suddenly throw a loaded train into an emergency stop situation that you run the risk of derailing the train, making a big mess, and perhaps getting someone killed. Now beuclid wants the engineer to dump the air on a loaded, volatile oil train because the engineer was made away that a grain train had done so. It sounds like a recipe for disaster.

 

 

So you would choose to not dump the air because that might derail your train and start a big fire.  However, not dumping the air guarantees that you will run into a loaded grain hopper, which will derail your train and start a big fire.  But you can claim you made the right choice by assuring us that dumping the air would not have stopped your train in time anyway.    

 

 

Reread the stuff you posted and you'll surely figure out that the oil train engineer dumped the air the minute he realized he needed too. He didn't do it before that. He didn't do it after that. He did it then, because he was there and you weren't. If you don't believe me, ask yourself.

[Murphy Siding]

Euclid

I don’t know if there was time to stop the oil train short of the derailed car. ............ I think there is a good chance that 59 seconds would have been enough time to stop the oil train short of the fouling car............. 

 

Yes- the answer is no. Do you proofread your posts before you hit the button?

[Murphy Siding]

Euclid

     

...........I think there is a good chance that 59 seconds would have been enough time to stop the oil train short of the fouling car.............

 I don't think so. That sounds like expecting a lot from a loaded unit train of oil cars running at track speed.

[Euclid]

Murphy Siding

    I've read on these very forums that if you were to suddenly throw a loaded train into an emergency stop situation that you run the risk of derailing the train, making a big mess, and perhaps getting someone killed. Now beuclid wants the engineer to dump the air on a loaded, volatile oil train because the engineer was made away that a grain train had done so. It sounds like a recipe for disaster.

So you would choose to not dump the air because that might derail your train and start a big fire.  However, not dumping the air guarantees that you will run into a loaded grain hopper, which will derail your train and start a big fire.  But you can claim you made the right choice by assuring us that dumping the air would not have stopped your train in time anyway.    

 

[Murphy Siding]

Euclid

 

 

I am not nit-picking just to tweak the other posters.  

Then what is the reason you are nitpiclking?