Euclid Well, I must say that after listening to all this knowledge, it is pretty clear to me how it all is supposed to work: Rule calls for immediate radio warning and red fusee display because mainline track may be fouled. Collision may be imminent.
Well, I must say that after listening to all this knowledge, it is pretty clear to me how it all is supposed to work:
Rule calls for immediate radio warning and red fusee display because mainline track may be fouled.
Collision may be imminent.
EuclidStopping distance too short for service application.
In this case, pretty much. It was never mentioned in the report, but the oil train engineer may have initiated a full service application upon notification of the grain train UDE.
EuclidDistance too short to slow to restricted speed with service application.
EuclidNot enough time to learn whether fouling exists.
EuclidMust treat as an unplanned stop because fouling may not exist.
EuclidMay not make an emergency application unless fouling is known to exist.
EuclidEngineer always has the option to dump the air if he feels it is justified, but it is never justified because it is too dangerous.
EuclidUnplanned stop rule prohibits emergency application because it would be poor train handling if fouling does not exist.
Again, the use of an emergency application would be discouraged, not prohibited.
EuclidEngineer sees that track is fouled, but too late to stop with emergency application.
EuclidTrain strikes fouling car, derails, and catches fire.
EuclidEngineer is lucky train did not derail from trying to stop it before it hit the fouling car.
Would the end result have been any different?
As I've noted before, this incident was a "perfect storm."
Had the oil train been, say, 3 miles away when the grain train derailed, there would have been ample time to properly slow the oil train to restricted speed. In fact, it's very possible that by the time the oil train reached the head end of the grain train, it would have been known that the adjacent track had been fouled.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Stopping distance too short for service application.
Distance too short to slow to restricted speed with service application.
Not enough time to learn whether fouling exists.
Must treat as an unplanned stop because fouling may not exist.
May not make an emergency application unless fouling is known to exist.
Engineer always has the option to dump the air if he feels it is justified, but it is never justified because it is too dangerous.
Unplanned stop rule prohibits emergency application because it would be poor train handling if fouling does not exist.
Engineer sees that track is fouled, but too late to stop with emergency application.
Train strikes fouling car, derails, and catches fire.
Engineer is lucky train did not derail from trying to stop it before it hit the fouling car.
EuclidWhy wouldn't this apply? 103.8 Emergency Brake Applications When conditions warrant, use an emergency brake application without hesitation if any condition occurs in which there is doubt that service applications can control train speed…
The next time you are running a train as an engineer and a UDE is reported on train that you are bout to pass, feel free to plug it.
I can easily see the thread where the grain train went UDE, but didn't derail and oil train did plug it and something bad happened, Bucky spending billions of electrons argueing why the engineer SHOULDN'T have plugged it since its "so dangerous" to put a train in emergency.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Murphy SidingWhat do the rules specifically say about unicorns?
Ask this crew?
Sorry...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Euclid BaltACD Euclid BaltACD Euclid dehusman What if there is not time to slow to restricted speed with a service application before "passing the location" ? Why wouldn't this apply? 103.8 Emergency Brake Applications When conditions warrant, use an emergency brake application without hesitation if any condition occurs in which there is doubt that service applications can control train speed… Emergency braking generates uncontrolled and uncontrollable slack action within the train making the medicine worse than the disease. Emergency braking has its place in the tools available for the engineers use - it is rarely the first choice of a tool to use. You need to put up a picture hanging hook on the wall - is your first choice to use a 10 pound sledge hammer? Your persisting rants indicate that you must use the sledge hammer for anything that needs hammering - big or little - to you it doesn't matter. What should an engineer do if a service application will not slow him to restricted speed before passing the disabled train? Has the disabled train reported that HE has the adjacent track blocked? From the rule: “When a train or engine is stopped by an emergency application… If an adjacent main track or controlled siding may be obstructed,…” Note that it says nothing about a need to confirm that there is an obstruction.
BaltACD Euclid BaltACD Euclid dehusman What if there is not time to slow to restricted speed with a service application before "passing the location" ? Why wouldn't this apply? 103.8 Emergency Brake Applications When conditions warrant, use an emergency brake application without hesitation if any condition occurs in which there is doubt that service applications can control train speed… Emergency braking generates uncontrolled and uncontrollable slack action within the train making the medicine worse than the disease. Emergency braking has its place in the tools available for the engineers use - it is rarely the first choice of a tool to use. You need to put up a picture hanging hook on the wall - is your first choice to use a 10 pound sledge hammer? Your persisting rants indicate that you must use the sledge hammer for anything that needs hammering - big or little - to you it doesn't matter. What should an engineer do if a service application will not slow him to restricted speed before passing the disabled train? Has the disabled train reported that HE has the adjacent track blocked?
Euclid BaltACD Euclid dehusman What if there is not time to slow to restricted speed with a service application before "passing the location" ? Why wouldn't this apply? 103.8 Emergency Brake Applications When conditions warrant, use an emergency brake application without hesitation if any condition occurs in which there is doubt that service applications can control train speed… Emergency braking generates uncontrolled and uncontrollable slack action within the train making the medicine worse than the disease. Emergency braking has its place in the tools available for the engineers use - it is rarely the first choice of a tool to use. You need to put up a picture hanging hook on the wall - is your first choice to use a 10 pound sledge hammer? Your persisting rants indicate that you must use the sledge hammer for anything that needs hammering - big or little - to you it doesn't matter. What should an engineer do if a service application will not slow him to restricted speed before passing the disabled train?
BaltACD Euclid dehusman What if there is not time to slow to restricted speed with a service application before "passing the location" ? Why wouldn't this apply? 103.8 Emergency Brake Applications When conditions warrant, use an emergency brake application without hesitation if any condition occurs in which there is doubt that service applications can control train speed… Emergency braking generates uncontrolled and uncontrollable slack action within the train making the medicine worse than the disease. Emergency braking has its place in the tools available for the engineers use - it is rarely the first choice of a tool to use. You need to put up a picture hanging hook on the wall - is your first choice to use a 10 pound sledge hammer? Your persisting rants indicate that you must use the sledge hammer for anything that needs hammering - big or little - to you it doesn't matter.
Euclid dehusman What if there is not time to slow to restricted speed with a service application before "passing the location" ? Why wouldn't this apply? 103.8 Emergency Brake Applications When conditions warrant, use an emergency brake application without hesitation if any condition occurs in which there is doubt that service applications can control train speed…
dehusman
What if there is not time to slow to restricted speed with a service application before "passing the location" ?
Why wouldn't this apply?
103.8 Emergency Brake Applications
When conditions warrant, use an emergency brake application without hesitation if any condition occurs in which there is doubt that service applications can control train speed…
Emergency braking generates uncontrolled and uncontrollable slack action within the train making the medicine worse than the disease. Emergency braking has its place in the tools available for the engineers use - it is rarely the first choice of a tool to use.
You need to put up a picture hanging hook on the wall - is your first choice to use a 10 pound sledge hammer? Your persisting rants indicate that you must use the sledge hammer for anything that needs hammering - big or little - to you it doesn't matter.
What should an engineer do if a service application will not slow him to restricted speed before passing the disabled train?
Has the disabled train reported that HE has the adjacent track blocked?
From the rule:
“When a train or engine is stopped by an emergency application…
If an adjacent main track or controlled siding may be obstructed,…”
Note that it says nothing about a need to confirm that there is an obstruction.
Note that there is nothing about the need to confirm the existence unicorns either. You’re suggesting that it also covers an adjacent main track or controlled siding that the engineer imagines or hallucinates being obstructed. Surely this would also fall into your category of things that engineers must focus their ESP powers on. It is unclear how the rules call out dealing with those types of issues, but I bet if you paraphrased the rules, took some things out of context and added your wisdom, you could probably make the rules match your imagination. What do the rules specifically say about unicorns?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
EuclidNote that it says nothing about a need to confirm that there is an obstruction.
Yes, but.... Yes, but....
Folks, ol' Bucky's not going to be satisfied until someone tells him that when in doubt the engineer should ALWAYS dump the train.
Of course, that means he's never going to be satisfied, because no one is ever going to tell him that.
Mr. Ron Travis, AKA Bucyrus, AKA Euclid, AKA Bucky has no idea how many of wish this software had an "Ignore this user" button so we could silence his inanity. He just keeps trolling along.
Norm
I am reminded of that little thing toddlers do - "Why?" "Why?" "Why?" "Why?" "Why?" "Why?" "Why?" "Why?" "Why?" "Why?" "Why?" "Why?" "Why?"
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Euclid dehusman A train on an adjacent track that receives radio notification must pass the location specified at restricted speed and stop short of any portion of the stopped train fouling their track. It doesn't say immediately put your train in emergency, it says reduce speed to restricted speed and look out for an obstruction. What if there is not time to slow to restricted speed with a service application before "passing the location" ? Why wouldn't this apply? 103.8 Emergency Brake Applications When conditions warrant, use an emergency brake application without hesitation if any condition occurs in which there is doubt that service applications can control train speed…
dehusman A train on an adjacent track that receives radio notification must pass the location specified at restricted speed and stop short of any portion of the stopped train fouling their track. It doesn't say immediately put your train in emergency, it says reduce speed to restricted speed and look out for an obstruction.
dehusmanA train on an adjacent track that receives radio notification must pass the location specified at restricted speed and stop short of any portion of the stopped train fouling their track. It doesn't say immediately put your train in emergency, it says reduce speed to restricted speed and look out for an obstruction.
Euclid I am saying that in this case, according to you, the engineer was prohibited from making an emergency application because an emergency application was not needed, and making one when not needed would not be good train handling, and you can't make an emergency application for an unplanned stop if it is inconsistent with good train handling.
I am saying that in this case, according to you, the engineer was prohibited from making an emergency application because an emergency application was not needed, and making one when not needed would not be good train handling, and you can't make an emergency application for an unplanned stop if it is inconsistent with good train handling.
I finally wallowed through this swamp of a thread and once again you are making this a theater of the absurd.
Nobody has said the engineer was prohibited from putting the train in emergency except YOU. He can put the train in emergency or not at his discretion.
Here's the relevant parts of 6.23 :
6.23 Emergency Stop or Severe Slack Action When a train or engine is stopped by an emergency application of the brakes or severe slack action occurs while stopping, take the following actions: Obstruction of Main Track or Controlled Siding If an adjacent main track or controlled siding may be obstructed, immediately: • Warn other trains by radio, stating the exact location and status of the train and repeat as necessary.
You don't really seem to be reading it very well. YOU are criticizing the grain train crew for not announcing the emergency application. Read the rule:
"When a train or engine is stopped by an emergency application ....."
When the grain train crew announced the emergency application they were still moving, so they exceeded the requirements of the rule, because they announced before the train stopped. By YOUR timeline and accounting of the incident the announcement was at D+48 sec and the grain train stopped at D+54 sec.
When the grain train went in emergency the there were other train handling rules that require the engineer to operate the brakes to not slide the wheels on the engines and try to minimize slack. So he's busy.
What about this rule? 103.8 Emergency Brake Applications When conditions warrant, use an emergency brake application without hesitation if any condition occurs in which there is doubt that service applications can control train speed…
It is very easy for you to know exactly what is happening because you are looking at the whole thing through the rear view mirror. You KNOW the train is derailed. YOU know the conditions warrant because you are reading a report written months afterwards. You KNOW the grain train is derailed. The engineer of the oil train does NOT. I don't recall anybody, the grain train crew, or the signal maintainer KNOWING the grain train was derailed. Up until D+66 secs the only people who KNOW there is a derailment is us, because we are looking at it through history. Up until D+66 sec the conditions that warrant the oil train being placed in the emergency are NOT known.
A train on an adjacent track does NOT constitute a condition that immediately requires an emergency application. The railroad rules even say that:
Train on Adjacent Track A train on an adjacent track that receives radio notification must pass the location specified at restricted speed and stop short of any portion of the stopped train fouling their track.
It doesn't say immediately put your train in emergency, it says reduce speed to restricted speed and look out for an obstruction.
There is ZERO requirement to put the train in emergency if another train says they are in emergency. Your assumption that the oil train should have plugged their train in ANY case, NOT knowing it the there was any obstruction doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The reason the rule requires a train to announce an emergency is because the train could have derailed, so now you want an approaching train to put itself in emergency and risk derailing itself?
At some point you ought to actually read what the people who know what the heck they are talking about are trying to explain to you.
Euclid I am saying that in this case, according to you, the engineer was prohibited from making an emergency application because an emergency application was not needed, and making one when not needed would not be good train handling, and you can't make an emergency application for an unplanned stop if it is inconsistent with good train handling. Of course this also raises the question of why an engineer would make an unplanned stop if he could not stop until after there was no point in stopping. What about this rule? 103.8 Emergency Brake Applications When conditions warrant, use an emergency brake application without hesitation if any condition occurs in which there is doubt that service applications can control train speed…
Of course this also raises the question of why an engineer would make an unplanned stop if he could not stop until after there was no point in stopping.
What about this rule?
schlimm tree68 Euclid So the intent would be to stop the oil train before it began passing the grain train. If the fusees do not mean stop, what is the point of placing them? The fusees are a moot point in this incident. NORAC rules call for a train encountering a lit fusee to proceed at restricted speed for one mile past the fusee. I'm sure GCOR says something similar. Schlimm If that is the goal, then folks should stop feeding him responses. Some of us can't stand to see his alternate reality left standing. If it's ignored, someone might mistakenly take it for fact. An endless task, guaranteed to fail.
tree68 Euclid So the intent would be to stop the oil train before it began passing the grain train. If the fusees do not mean stop, what is the point of placing them? The fusees are a moot point in this incident. NORAC rules call for a train encountering a lit fusee to proceed at restricted speed for one mile past the fusee. I'm sure GCOR says something similar. Schlimm If that is the goal, then folks should stop feeding him responses. Some of us can't stand to see his alternate reality left standing. If it's ignored, someone might mistakenly take it for fact.
Euclid So the intent would be to stop the oil train before it began passing the grain train. If the fusees do not mean stop, what is the point of placing them?
The fusees are a moot point in this incident.
NORAC rules call for a train encountering a lit fusee to proceed at restricted speed for one mile past the fusee. I'm sure GCOR says something similar.
Schlimm If that is the goal, then folks should stop feeding him responses.
Some of us can't stand to see his alternate reality left standing. If it's ignored, someone might mistakenly take it for fact.
An endless task, guaranteed to fail.
Precisely. The voices in Bucky's head keep telling him that only he can be right and others don't know of what they speak.
BaltACD NTSB News Flash ! ! ! NTSB metalurgist have discovered irregular brain waves eminating from a Trains Magazine Forum poster known as Euclid are the reason the axle broke on the 45th car from the engines of BNSF Grain Train 6990 West at Casselton, ND on December 30, 2013. These waves continually hammered a fault that was caused when a catapiller attached it's cacoon to the axle while the wheel set of the axle was awaiting installation into the rail car on which it failed. The cacoon adhesive created a surface fault that the irregular brain waves used as entryway in ultimately creating the failure. In human terms the axle couldn't stand the continued assult upon it's physical metalurgical reality any longer and quit trying. Alternative Fact analysis used extensively by the NTSB was instrumental in the sleuthing required to pierce the mounds and mounds of railroad techno babble that hid the irregular brain waves from mere mortals.
NTSB News Flash ! ! !
NTSB metalurgist have discovered irregular brain waves eminating from a Trains Magazine Forum poster known as Euclid are the reason the axle broke on the 45th car from the engines of BNSF Grain Train 6990 West at Casselton, ND on December 30, 2013.
These waves continually hammered a fault that was caused when a catapiller attached it's cacoon to the axle while the wheel set of the axle was awaiting installation into the rail car on which it failed. The cacoon adhesive created a surface fault that the irregular brain waves used as entryway in ultimately creating the failure. In human terms the axle couldn't stand the continued assult upon it's physical metalurgical reality any longer and quit trying.
Alternative Fact analysis used extensively by the NTSB was instrumental in the sleuthing required to pierce the mounds and mounds of railroad techno babble that hid the irregular brain waves from mere mortals.
tree68 Euclid I am saying that in this case, according to you, the engineer was prohibited from making an emergency application Please - SHOW ME WHERE I (OR ANYONE) SAID THE ENGINEER OF THE OIL TRAIN WAS PROHIBITED FROM MAKING AN EMERGENCY APPLICATION. Yes - I know all caps is shouting.
Euclid I am saying that in this case, according to you, the engineer was prohibited from making an emergency application
Please - SHOW ME WHERE I (OR ANYONE) SAID THE ENGINEER OF THE OIL TRAIN WAS PROHIBITED FROM MAKING AN EMERGENCY APPLICATION.
Yes - I know all caps is shouting.
Larry, I and I am sure many others will forgive you for SHOUTING, in this case, I am sure that I am not the only one that would like to grab someone by the neck, and not let go until all wiggling has ceased.
I am not a working rail, but I would guess that as mentioned, a full service application would be the preffered action, as that would start to manage the slack, in case an Emergency application should become neccessary.
In case anyone would like to send Bucky a letter, his address is: Under the Bridge
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
EuclidI am saying that in this case, according to you, the engineer was prohibited from making an emergency application
EuclidYou are still hung up on the belief that the oil train engineer had to know the line was fouled before doing anything about it. How else can you conclude that the emergency application was not required? Obviously it was required. If he was supposed to wait until he saw the fouling car, why even warn him ahead of time?
And this is why you have absolutely no credibility here. I'm not hung up on anything.
The engineer of the oil train was free to take whatever action he chose. It's possible that he took the steps outlined for an unplanned stop, at least until he saw the obstruction. As I said, you'll have to ask him why he didn't dump the train immediately.
Until he saw the obstruction, there was no reason to even stop his train. As I noted a moment ago, many UDEs do not involve a derailment. For that matter, if the derailed car had skewed away from track 2, the track would not have been fouled and there would have been no collision.
Simply reducing his speed to restricted (had there been enough track to do so) would certainly have prevented the outcome. There wasn't enough track.
And as for your statement I highlighted in red - really? This shows that you simply don't get it. But I'll say it anyhow - a warning is issued in case there is something amiss - like a derailed car. In the vast majority of cases, there is ample warning. With this incident, the timeline simply didn't allow that ideal chain of events.
Waiting for the "yes, but..."
EuclidYou say the engineer was prohibited from making an emergency application...
I did NOT say the engineer was prohibited from making an emergency application. You keep saying that. As I said - cross it off your list.
An engineer can make an emergency application any time he (or she) feels it is warranted. You'll have to ask the engineer of the oil train why he didn't dump the train as soon as he heard the grain train had a UDE.
There are many, many causes of a UDE that do not involve a derailment. Especially in cold weather.
tree68 Euclid ...but was prohibited from making an emergency application until he saw the hazard, ... Nobody said that. Nobody will say that. Cross it off your list. The key here is the phrase "good train handling." Making an emergency application when one is not required is not good train handling. In a perfect world, the engineer of the oil train would have had enough warning to reduce his speed to restricted. He did not. The delay was inconsequential, as many have already pointed out. If the signal maintainer had been on the other side of the train, he might have been able to give warning of the fouled track. He was not. In fact, it appears that when the train went by him, all of the cars were still coupled, if dragging. This was a "perfect storm." If anything could go wrong, it did, through no fault of any of the crews. Can we put this to bed now?
Euclid ...but was prohibited from making an emergency application until he saw the hazard, ...
Nobody said that. Nobody will say that. Cross it off your list.
The key here is the phrase "good train handling." Making an emergency application when one is not required is not good train handling.
In a perfect world, the engineer of the oil train would have had enough warning to reduce his speed to restricted. He did not. The delay was inconsequential, as many have already pointed out.
If the signal maintainer had been on the other side of the train, he might have been able to give warning of the fouled track. He was not. In fact, it appears that when the train went by him, all of the cars were still coupled, if dragging.
This was a "perfect storm." If anything could go wrong, it did, through no fault of any of the crews.
Can we put this to bed now?
I don't think so. You are still hung up on the belief that the oil train engineer had to know the line was fouled before doing anything about it. How else can you conclude that the emergency application was not required? Obviously it was required. If he was supposed to wait until he saw the fouling car, why even warn him ahead of time?
The delay was not inconsequential. Even if he could not have stopped, he could have slowed down a lot. If it were me, I would prefer to hit that hopper car as slowly as possible.
I really don't understand what you said above which I highlighted in red. In reply to my conclusion which you quoted; you say that nobody said that, nobody will say that; and then you go ahead and say that.
You say the engineer was prohibited from making an emergency application because one was not required, and doing so when not required would be inconsistent with good train handling. Doesn't that mean that the engineer was prohibited from making an emergency application, as I said?
3:33 - Euclidean explanation of the operations in GCOR rule 103.6.5?
To have had any chance of stopping before striking the derailed car - the Oil train would have had to begin stopping - Full Service or Emergency, take your pick, on the descending 0.4% grade before the car on the Grain Train derailed, let alone any announcement of said derailment by the Grain Train's crew.
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