tree68 BaltACD if there is no connection with national rail system - I don't know. Actually, you're dead on. We run over rails that do connect to the national system - in fact we run as a tenant on a short line for part of our trips. Thus we're under FRA rules. In talking with the folks at Greenfield Village a couple of years ago - I don't think they're under FRA rules, although the track does connect with the national system. I think they said that there was enough isolation that they were exempt. And I know of a NYS tourist line that is apparently disconnected, as they tend to be a little looser... We occasionally run into HOS issues, but most of our runs are well within the 12 hour limit, and if they go that long, there is usually an opportunity to go off duty for a period.
BaltACD if there is no connection with national rail system - I don't know.
Actually, you're dead on. We run over rails that do connect to the national system - in fact we run as a tenant on a short line for part of our trips. Thus we're under FRA rules.
In talking with the folks at Greenfield Village a couple of years ago - I don't think they're under FRA rules, although the track does connect with the national system. I think they said that there was enough isolation that they were exempt.
And I know of a NYS tourist line that is apparently disconnected, as they tend to be a little looser...
We occasionally run into HOS issues, but most of our runs are well within the 12 hour limit, and if they go that long, there is usually an opportunity to go off duty for a period.
Second that about being connected to the general railroad system. Some years ago, the Boone and Scenic Valley was having some issue. They pulled up a rail on the track that connected with the UP, thinking that severed their "relationship" to the national railroad system. It didn't.
Jeff
tree68 We occasionally run into HOS issues, but most of our runs are well within the 12 hour limit, and if they go that long, there is usually an opportunity to go off duty for a period.
HOS Law requires that the off duty period be 4 hours or more to create a break in the HOS period, if the break is less than 4 hours then all time is continuous from the original on duty time.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
HOS rules for airline pilots are much more reasonable. For domestic trips and most international as long as the airplane can land at its destination in the scheduled time the plane can depart the originating station no matter what enroute delays happen later. As well after landing can taxi to gate no matter how long it takes.
Flight time ( gate to gate ) come under separate guidelines but still if enroute overtime can still go to gate at destination.
Ground service persons under HOS much more restricted
BaltACDif there is no connection with national rail system - I don't know.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 BaltACD Including tourist lines...
BaltACD
Including tourist lines...
If part of the Tourist operation in anyway includes receiving/delivering cars in interchange freight operations - YES; if there is no connection with national rail system - I don't know. I would suggest having the Officials of such tourist operations confer with the FRA for a definative ruling.
BaltACDThe Hours of Service Law applies to all crews and/or personnel to which it applies, Passenger, Freight, Short Lines, etc.
Sunnyland I thought the government mandated the time any crew could work. When that time was reached, they'd have to stop and wait for a relief crew no matter where they were. So this was a surprise for me to read. I know I was on Amtrak a few years ago in IL where a bad storm caused huge delays and a derailment ahead of us and signal malfunctions. We sat at Alton, IL. Buses were sent to relieve the crew, who had "timed out" and had to leave. They also took along those of us who were only going to St. L. It was the Eagle and everyone else had to stay on. So that crew was not allowed to work past their time limit. Maybe it's only on passenger trains, but my understanding was that the government would not allow any crew members, freight or passenger, to work past their "hours". So not sure what is going on with this, people definitely need sleep and should not be operating trains and other machinery if they are sleep deprived. Or maybe management is not covered by any rules, but crew members are union members and that should definitely make a diff.
I thought the government mandated the time any crew could work. When that time was reached, they'd have to stop and wait for a relief crew no matter where they were. So this was a surprise for me to read. I know I was on Amtrak a few years ago in IL where a bad storm caused huge delays and a derailment ahead of us and signal malfunctions. We sat at Alton, IL. Buses were sent to relieve the crew, who had "timed out" and had to leave. They also took along those of us who were only going to St. L. It was the Eagle and everyone else had to stay on. So that crew was not allowed to work past their time limit. Maybe it's only on passenger trains, but my understanding was that the government would not allow any crew members, freight or passenger, to work past their "hours". So not sure what is going on with this, people definitely need sleep and should not be operating trains and other machinery if they are sleep deprived.
Or maybe management is not covered by any rules, but crew members are union members and that should definitely make a diff.
Management personnel performing the duties of Hours of Service personnel become covered by the Hours of Service law and all its requirements. Some company officials 'like to think' the HOS law doesn't apply, they find out differently when the FRA reviews the records and the fines roll in.
Under extenuating circumstance, Company Officials can order a crew to exceed the HOS with the full knowledge that this is a violation and all penalties of the law will be brought to bear upon the company - needless to say this is a very rare occurrence.
The Hours of Service Law applies to all crews and/or personnel to which it applies, Passenger, Freight, Short Lines, etc.
daveklepperLike permitting audio entertainment under operating conditions that would lead to boardom.
I don't know that I'd want to add that audio entertainment to them, but the fire service is a big user (as has been aviation) of noise reduction headsets that include comms. I know cabs are far better than they once were as far as noise goes, but I'd appreciate such headsets in our old locos.
The idea of adding "other" audio might be a reach.
Giving management ideas that benefit both employees and management (and stockholders and the general public) makes sense. Like permitting audio entertainment under operating conditions that would lead to boardom.
Answering a personal request by a general paper, while I am still in my quota of free reprints without violating copyright, those wishing the auto entertainment JASA paper can contact me at
daveklepper@yahoo.com
BaltACDWhen it comes to asking 'the Feds' for 'quality of life' rules to be put in place; be careful what you ask for. You may no longer be able to afford a life of quality. The HOS regulations that were enacted at the instigation of the Brotherhoods a couple of years ago decreased T&E earnings potential by about 26%. Once one factors additional rest required of 'limbo time' the earnings potential is decreased even further.
Dead men don't have any quality of life. Or any earnings to worry about. Get a good rest, they do. So, to paraphrase the comercial, "STAY RESTED MY FRIEND".
CSSHEGEWISCHCommercial aviation has this problem, too. I remember from quite a few years ago, a crew fell asleep in the cockpit and it wasn't discovered until air traffic control noticed that the flight did not begin its approach to the airport.
Northwest Airlines?
There is currently a lot of informed speculation that the recent flydubai flight 981 crash may have had fatigue as a large contributing factor.
Those pursuing this topic further may wish to read my Journal of the Acoustical Society of America paper "Automobile entertainmet responsive to the interior environment," Vol 122. issue 5, pages 2499, 2500, November 2007.
daveklepper All these ideas are not mutually exclusive, and again, if I were an active engineer or conductor, and my partner in the locomotive cab was willing, I would at least do what I suggest in the last paragraph, have a continiual useful conversation.
All these ideas are not mutually exclusive, and again, if I were an active engineer or conductor, and my partner in the locomotive cab was willing, I would at least do what I suggest in the last paragraph, have a continiual useful conversation.
When you have a partner whom you get along well with and can hold a conversation (on any topic, not just "usefull" railroad subjects. Except when required) the trips go better. I've gone to work tired (I can't sleep like my cat does, at the drop of a hat) but because of who I was working with never felt tired at all the entire trip.
More interactive alerters are not the solution. The current ones are plenty annoying to go around.
One easy solution would be to relax the technology rules. Allow a radio or something along the lines of that and try to agree on a music choice. One of the hardest things to do is to sit there in the middle of the night loading a coal train at 0.23 mph after you have been up all day first out all day and was called for a extra job right as you were going to bed.
There's your problem right there. There is no issue when you're getting called back into work as soon as your rest period is over, that's actually much preferred because you're better rested and making more $$$. But when you sit at home 12-16 hours after your rest is up and then you're called into work that's when fatigue starts to set in.
There are all kinds of schedules used to provide 24 hour coverage of jobs - NONE of them are perfect.
Recently, one of the organizations in my company decided reorganize their operation. Jobs were re-orged away from operating division lines of responsibility and thus continuity with operating division goals. Now jobs have responsibility for portions of 3 or 4 divisions. The jobs have been arranged so that the 'Relief' jobs all work one trick 1st - 2nd - 3rd; thus the holder of the Relief job must become qualified on 3 different positions for their work week rather than havin 'round the clock' qualification on a single position. Even with all this reorganization, there are still positions that have a Tag day - a day that must be filled from the Extra List. Extra List personnel must fill vacancies on all trick positions.
Every change in management brings 'new' ideas to staffing. (New ideas are really old ideas that new management didn't take the time in history to rediscover.) Those that fail to understand history are bound to repeat it. Been there, done that.
Larry, I had not thought about firefighters' hour. My grandson works for the Unified Fire Department (most of the county), and is away from home four days and then is home four days.
Johnny
It's been found that if you do have to rotate shifts, "forward" is the way to go.
So working a 12 hour, max HOS "shift" followed by a 10 hour rest would have you moving backwards.
Some years ago, when my uncle was a sheriff's deputy, I think they rotated monthly, and when they rotated, their days off moved forward a day, too.
I once interviewed for a job that rotated weekly. Fortunately, I didn't get it. When I did end up on rotating shifts, I almost think it was a six week rotation.
Our local paid fire department works a three on, three off schedule, with one "three on" being a 10 hour day shift, and the next being a 14 hour night shift, with one complete cycle being 12 days. Some fire departments have gone to a 48/72 schedule, many others just work a 24 on/24 off schedule with "Kelly days" to keep their hours under whatever their max is (it could be as high as 56 hours a week, depending on their contract).
Another uncle worked at a paper mill, and I can't remember him ever working anything but mids... Any time I saw him he looked tired...
So, there's lots of ways it can all go.
Variations in rotating shift work:
A brother of mine rotated shifts every week for several years when working at the Ensley Wire Mill (US Steel)--first shift one week, second shift the next week, and third shift for a week before starting over. He was salaried, working in Quality Control.
The worst I have known of was the schedule for the man who worked five days a week as the relief operator at a three-trick station--0700-1500 Saturday and Sunday; 1500-2300 Monday and Tuesday; and 2300 Wednesday-0700 Thursday. I never did know the schedule of the operator who took the 2300 Thursday-0700 Friday trick (I never saw him--nor did I ever talk with the man who worked the third trick for five nights a week; I did see him selling peanuts at high school and junior college football games; he was known as "Peanut").
The best rotating shift I knew of was that at the Southern Natural Gas plant in Reform--one month at a time on each shift.
Men in road service certainly do not have--and have not had--an easy life. I think of the passenger trainmen on the IC's Louisiana Division (McComb-New Orleans-Canton-McComb for three of the four trains, and McComb-Canton-New Orleans-McComb for the City back in the sixties: away from home 24 hours, 24 hours at home--and start all over).
Back when the Southern still had three trains a day between Bristol and Chattanooga, a conductor on the east end (Knoxville-Bristol) told me of his schedule back in '67, which had, as I recall, him working all three trains in rotation. I think it was something like this: Knoxville to Bristol on #42, lay over for a little over 24 hours and take #17 back down (I had him on a trip both ways after spending a night in Bristol); take #18 up and #45 down, take #46 up, and #41 down. Just how much time he had between trips, I do not remember. Incidentally, I had a round-trip ticket between Tuscaloosa and Black Mountain, N.C., and a round-trip ticket between Morristown and Bristol. When he boarded in Knoxville, he did not punch my coupon to Black Mountain; when I boarded in Bristol, I told him that I would be getting off in Morristown--and he told me to stay on to Knoxville, thus giving me another hour or so of sleep.
BaltACD When it comes to asking 'the Feds' for 'quality of life' rules to be put in place; be careful what you ask for. You may no longer be able to afford a life of quality. The HOS regulations that were enacted at the instigation of the Brotherhoods a couple of years ago decreased T&E earnings potential by about 26%. Once one factors additional rest required of 'limbo time' the earnings potential is decreased even further.
When it comes to asking 'the Feds' for 'quality of life' rules to be put in place; be careful what you ask for. You may no longer be able to afford a life of quality.
The HOS regulations that were enacted at the instigation of the Brotherhoods a couple of years ago decreased T&E earnings potential by about 26%. Once one factors additional rest required of 'limbo time' the earnings potential is decreased even further.
quote fromElectroliner 1935 post on this Thread: "... The FEC's idea of having scheduled freight trains departing from both ends of the RR and crews swapping when they meet so that they are home at the end of each trip is a great start. The great proponent of scheduled service E. H. Harrison, should try scheduling crews in an intellegent manor. As should other RR executives..."
This would seem to be a reasonable way to handle a sticky situation and keep crews happy. There used to be a regular 'meet' on the Southern Rwy's line at Cherokee,Ala. each morning between 10AM, and Noon between East and Westbound trains.
The one thing that is most misunderstood is that this problem is not directly caused by a lack of sleep. That used to be the common thinking maybe 20 years ago or so. If you are tired, get more sleep. It was simple. The problem of insufficient sleep was thought to be caused by night shift workers trying to sleep in the daytime and being kept awake by typical daytime activity and noise. But that is old school thinking.
The problem has been redefined in recent times as something called Shiftwork Sleep Disorder or SWSD. A lack of sleep does not cause SWSD. A lack of sleep results from SWSD.
There are two factors in the cause of SWSD:
A work schedule that interrupts the circadian rhythm.
Whether or not a person will succumb to SWSD.
Both factors must be present in order to a person to have SWSD. Whether a person works on a schedule that interrupts the circadian rhythm is easy to determine. But whether or not a person will succumb to SWSD requires testing. I do not know what is involved in testing, but I gather that it looks at many factors, and has to be done on an ongoing basis to guard against the sudden onset of SWSD.
If a person tests positive for SWSD, they cannot work in a safety-sensitive job. They must be taken out of such a job, and treated for SWSD. They cannot return to the safety-sensitive job until or unless they are cured of SWSD.
I expect that as this moves forward, the testing will be further refined, and it will also require a variety of lifestyle factors and record keeping. I suspect that there is a widely held fear that this testing will be intrusive in the dictation of lifestyle factors when off duty.
But the larger fear will be the potential to be permanently removed from a safety-sensitive job if SWSD is found to exist in a person and it cannot be successfully treated.
About four years ago, while on a trip retuning home from Ohio, I was tired as was my wife who was driving and while on I65 North of Lafayette IN, I was dozing and my wife unintentionally dozed (as in the video). I woke up as the car ran over the shoulder rumble strips. We hit the guard rail at about 60 mph and totaled the car. Seat belts and air bags did their job and we walked away unharmed. We were fortunate that traffic was lite for I65 and no other vehicles were close emough to be involved. Others stopped and the State Police came, got a wrecker and within about three hours, we were on our way in a rental car. So close to what could have been so bad.
One may think that they can stay awake but the body will do what it needs to keep functioning as in the video.
I think the companies and the Unions ned to work to resolve how to provide sensible consistant crew schedules that will recognize this problem and still maintain an economical solution. I have heard that this is one good thing about being in passenger service is that you have a defined schedule that you can count on. The FEC's idea of having scheduled freight trains departing from both ends of the RR and crews swapping when they meet so that they are home at the end of each trip is a great start. The great proponent of scheduled service E. H. Harrison, should try scheduling crews in an intellegent manor. As should other RR executives.
tree68 I would submit that it would take old-style boarding houses to improve the on-the-road diet of crews in general. Many locales have a burger/fast food joint. Not many have a place where you can get a good old meat-and-potatoes meal at a reasonable price and in a reasonable amount of time.
I would submit that it would take old-style boarding houses to improve the on-the-road diet of crews in general. Many locales have a burger/fast food joint. Not many have a place where you can get a good old meat-and-potatoes meal at a reasonable price and in a reasonable amount of time.
Many UP or BNSF crew change locations have a Oak Tree Inn. I've stayed in a couple, and they are sort of a Motel 8 but with important differences. Extra attention was given to soundproofing, both from street noise and the hallway or adjacent rooms. Many also have an attached Penny's Diner open 24 hours featuring all day breakfast and sort of a retro-1950's diner menu.
Given what we've read in the past about the irregular working hours faced by railroad crews, sleep - particularly the consistency thereof - is probably one of the easiest fixes.
Exercise would also benefit from longer rest times. Even assuming the equipment is available (as it is at many motels), it's hard to fit a decent sleep, a decent meal, and some decent exercise into the time currently allotted.
Well, I am certainly not advocating this. I am also not convinced that the diagnosis of the problem is accurate. But the definition of the problem and its remedy amount to an enormous challenge. It is about so much more than getting enough sleep. It is also about diet, exercise, and lifestyle; and also about everything in person’s medical history.
EuclidThis screening and testing will have to be ongoing, and it will investigate and advise on all of an employee’s activities and lifestyle both on and off duty, including all types of food, drink, and medications consumed.
Sounds like it came from a former New York mayor.
Norm
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