In the 1950's. PRR/N&W/NKP, the PRR and N&W is a no brainer as the PRR was the majority stock holder and similar in operation and commodities. Adding the NKP the "Pennsylvania Western" would of resulted in a more competitive route along the Great Lake region and direct route west to Chicago on a now expanded C&P line. West of Ft. Wayne the NKP line could be eliminated.
K4sPRR In the 1950's. PRR/N&W/NKP, the PRR and N&W is a no brainer as the PRR was the majority stock holder and similar in operation and commodities. Adding the NKP the "Pennsylvania Western" would of resulted in a more competitive route along the Great Lake region and direct route west to Chicago on a now expanded C&P line. West of Ft. Wayne the NKP line could be eliminated.
I believe the actual proposed merger was PRR/N&W/Wabash. This is because the Pennsy had a controlling interest in both the other railroads.
The concept was a response to the C&O/NYC merger proposal but that was blocked by the ICC and PRR didn't press it's case.....
Ultimately of course, the disastrous Penn Central merger was allowed.
In Rush Loving's book "The Men who Loved Trains" he makes the claim that combining NYC/C&O and allowing the PRR proposal would have been far healthier for the Northeastern Railroad system than PC was and would have resulted in a situation somewhat akin to what exists now after NS and CSX split Conrail.
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Per the question about who could force the C,M,St. P & P to merge;
The Road's stockholders and management.....
As a previous poster pointed out there was a proposal during the 1960's to merge the Milwaukee with the C&NW as well as another one to combine Milw/C&NW/Rock Island (which was to include selling the Rock's lines south of Kansas City to ATSF).
I know the latter idea was put forward by the Northwestern's president and I suspect it was an attempt to counter the UP-Rock Island proposal..
1 - Milwaukee Road and Erie-Lackawanna
2 - Lehigh Valley and Canadian National
3 - B&O and Missouri Pacific
It depends what time frame you're talking about but I can make my list nonetheless:
1. Grand Trunk + Milwaukee Road - Still a bloody shame, IMHO, that this didn't go through. Will always blame CNW for this one.
2. UP + CNW + PRR - The "U.S. Highway 30 Merger". Hey, two out of three ain't bad.
3. BN + ICG - To this day I still don't understand BN's preoccupation with Frisco.
4. ATSF + NYC - In response to #2.
I've also been intrigued with the possibility of MILW + EL as F3A suggested or maybe even an ATSF + MILW + NYC combo.
Soo Line + Wabash + Nickel Plate + Norfolk & Western + Southern + Reading + Erie + Pennsylvania + Canadian Pacific + Central of Georgia + Cincinatti, New Orleans & Texas Pacific
Maybe they would have solved the Chicago congestion problem several decades ago.
kgbw49 Soo Line + Wabash + Nickel Plate + Norfolk & Western + Southern + Reading + Erie + Pennsylvania + Canadian Pacific + Central of Georgia + Cincinatti, New Orleans & Texas Pacific Maybe they would have solved the Chicago congestion problem several decades ago.
Johnny
Mr. Deggesty, yes, thumbs up on that! Let's pick those up also and beat Hunter Harrison to the punch! That will fill out our new transcontinental railroad - the Dismal Swamp & Moose Jaw! Thanks!
Los Angeles Rams Guy It depends what time frame you're talking about but I can make my list nonetheless: 1. Grand Trunk + Milwaukee Road - Still a bloody shame, IMHO, that this didn't go through. Will always blame CNW for this one. 2. UP + CNW + PRR - The "U.S. Highway 30 Merger". Hey, two out of three ain't bad. 3. BN + ICG - To this day I still don't understand BN's preoccupation with Frisco. 4. ATSF + NYC - In response to #2. I've also been intrigued with the possibility of MILW + EL as F3A suggested or maybe even an ATSF + MILW + NYC combo.
I'd modify your #1 to: Milwaukee Road - Grand Trunk - CN - Lehigh Valley
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BN's reasoning for grabbing the Frisco had to do with manufacturing moving south. But yeah I agree with you. BN should have merged in IC, and left the Frisco. The addition of IC giving BN access to the Port of South Louisiana. Which captures over 60% of grain exports in the US. Then BN could also have courted the Missouri Pacific to grab a share of Gulf coast chemical traffic. UP wouldn't dominate the region as they do now. Or better yet the proposed merger between Santa Fe and Missouri Pacific that fell through. Santa Fe gains access to St Louis. Plus the chemical coast. The Texas Pacific could have went to the SP instead of MP
Well since GTW was CN adding the LV would be a logical east end
John Kneiling once proposed a MILW-EL merger, with the combined company shucking its common carrier obligation and all branches, then turning itself into conveyor belt for intermodal traffic. Interesting idea, but don't think it would have ever happened.
Anybody know why the Southern didn't go after the ACL? Or why it didn't pursue the Monon? Monon fits good with the Southern. Getting into Chicago looks as if it wasn't coveted by the SOU.
SD60MAC9500 Anybody know why the Southern didn't go after the ACL? Or why it didn't pursue the Monon? Monon fits good with the Southern. Getting into Chicago looks as if it wasn't coveted by the SOU.
ACL was probably bigger than Southern even after Southern bought Central of Georgia. Remember, ACL controlled L&N. ACL and Southern were both larger and stronger than SAL. Don't think the ICC would have agreed to a combination of Southern and ACL, because they were the two big players between the Appalachians and the Atlantic Ocean, south of Richmond.
So, how many of us have the old Avalon Hill game, "Rail Baron"? I do, but haven't played it in years.
Jeff
jeffhergert So, how many of us have the old Avalon Hill game, "Rail Baron"? I do, but haven't played it in years. Jeff
SALfan SD60MAC9500 Anybody know why the Southern didn't go after the ACL? Or why it didn't pursue the Monon? Monon fits good with the Southern. Getting into Chicago looks as if it wasn't coveted by the SOU. ACL was probably bigger than Southern even after Southern bought Central of Georgia. Remember, ACL controlled L&N. ACL and Southern were both larger and stronger than SAL. Don't think the ICC would have agreed to a combination of Southern and ACL, because they were the two big players between the Appalachians and the Atlantic Ocean, south of Richmond.
Looking back Southern didn't need to merge in CofG. ACL would have been a better fit market wise extending Southern deeper into Florida tapping argiculture. While not locking them out due to a future SAL+ACL (Which need not happen in this scenario). Perhaps a condition of merging with the ACL. Southern could have divested itself of the; CofG, GS&F (Georgia Southern & Florida, which still exist as an NS subsidiary), and it's associated subsidiaries. The ACL inreturn sell its control of the L&N to the Seaboard.
P.S. The CofG, Georgia Southern & Florida was better fit for the IC anyway. Getting IC into Atlanta and Northen Florida. Would have made a great route for intermodal traffic from Chicago-Jacksonville.
The Pennsylvania Railroad and the Rock Island. This would have given the Pennsylvania the northeast , but they would have gotten to Minneapolis, the gilf coast and all the way out to Denver. They would have connected not only in Chicago, but in Peoria and St Louis.,
Not a merger created, but why did the B&O acquire the Chicago & Alton and then sell it to the Mobile & Ohio thus creating the GM&O.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Wasn't CSX corporate in Richmond for awhile?
BaltACD Not a merger created, but why did the B&O acquire the Chicago & Alton and then sell it to the Mobile & Ohio thus creating the GM&O.
That is strange B&O did that. Would have made more sense to merge in the C&A. Since the C&A would have got them to Kansas City, MO. Then merge in the GM&O.
VGN Jess Wasn't CSX corporate in Richmond for awhile?
In deference to Hays T. Watkins and then John Snow - after Snow took his golden parachute to become Sec. of Treasury and departed, it was moved to Jacksonville where the Operating Headquarters had been moved in 1987.
Another one that comes to mind; purely in response to the proposed Grand Trunk - Milwaukee Road combination, would have been SOO + ICG. To make this one work, though, would have required SOO obtaining trackage rights over the then-CNW "Spine Line" mainline from Northfield down to Albert Lea where ICG still had trackage rights to from Glenville.
An interesting merger that almost happened in the 1990's; KCS + Illinois Central (post-ICG)
I also find some of the "alternative Conrail" mergers interesting; Mid Atlantic Rail Corporation (Reading, LV, CNJ, L&HR) and MARC-EL (the afformentioned roads + EL) although I realize either of these combinations would have been a weaker competitor compared to a PC only Conrail.
I guess the idea of the Dereco (D&H,Reading, EL, B&M) becoming a combined system when the C&O/N&W merger fell through is in a similiar vein (or combined with the above MARC roads, etc)..
BaltACDbut why did the B&O acquire the Chicago & Alton and then sell it to the Mobile & Ohio
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the IRS had rejected B&O's claimed losses incurred through C&A. So they spun it off in order to make their claims more tangible. (closure)
If Penn Central had not happened the Burlington Northern and New York Central could have merged to create a New York to Chicago to Seattle railroad.
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