I get the biggest kick out of the fact that the MOST unsafe public transportaion is also the only one that's not privatly held. The highway system , 100%US governmentowned and operated. Thousands of fatalities every year and we ACCEPT it !
The usual answer is for more education and it appears that it means including the video game "Grand Theft Auto" as drivers ed simulators for education.
Link to trains article states BNSF considering suspension of freight operations:
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2015/09/08-stb-letter-latest
Falcon48 I suspect what will happen is that most (or all) railroads will wait to see what happens in Congress before they take any self-help steps. But, if nothing is done by early December, I think you will see all or most Class I railroads making the 236.1008(b) filings with FRA to exclude lines from the PTC mandate, and taking the necessary measures to terminate their TIH and intercity/commuter passenger services on these lines by 12/31/15. Hopefully, it won't come to that.
I suspect what will happen is that most (or all) railroads will wait to see what happens in Congress before they take any self-help steps. But, if nothing is done by early December, I think you will see all or most Class I railroads making the 236.1008(b) filings with FRA to exclude lines from the PTC mandate, and taking the necessary measures to terminate their TIH and intercity/commuter passenger services on these lines by 12/31/15. Hopefully, it won't come to that.
I might add, with VRE and MARC commuter service - if those services are shut down it will hit a lot of governmental staffer's right where they live.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I've read BNSF's letter to STB. They say that they are considering not operating any lines that are required to have PTC after 12/31/15. That sounds like it means a complete shutdown of most of their mainlines. But does it?
PTC is only required on "main lines" that carry TIH traffic or regularly scheduled intercity or commuter passenger trains (49 CFR 236.1005(b)) The nominal date for making the determination of which lines are required to have PTC is 2008. But - and this is an important "but" - a railroad is entitled to exclude lines from the mandate if it shows FRA that the lines will no longer handle TIH or the specified passenger services as of December 31, 2015 (49 CFR 236.1008(b)(4)).
Now BNSF is right that, if a line is required to have PTC, then it's probably unlawful for the railroad to handle any traffic over the line, not just TIH and passenger service. But that assumes that the line is required to have PTC. If a railroad terminates its TIH and passenger services before 12/31/15, the railroad is entitled to the exclusion provieded in 236.1008(b)(4). What this means is that the lines covered by the exclusion will no longer be required to have PTC. If the lines are not required to have PTC, then it is not unlawful to use them for services other than TIH or intercity/commuter passenger service. This was the basis for my speculation that, if the PTC mandate is not extended, most or all Class I railroads will seek to end TIH and intercity/commuter passenger services on non-PTC equipped lines by the end of 2015.
I suspect what will happen is that most railroads will wait to see what happens in Congress before they take any self-help steps. But, if nothing is done by early December, I think you will see Class I railroads making the 236.1008(b) filings with FRA to exclude lines from the PTC mandate, and taking the necessary measures to terminate their TIH and intercity/commuter passenger services on these lines by 12/31/15. Hopefully, it won't come to that.
schlimm Murphy Siding Could it be that it is as complicated as rocket science or nuclear physics and maybe you're the one that doesn't get it? The railroads were told to spend their money to go and fix a problem that some politicians felt needed to be fixed, without a real clear cut plan. If you had to spend your money on a major expense that ultimately affected your company's whole future, wouldn't you want to take your time and do it right? If you choose to believe it is that complicated, that is your privilege. If you choose to believe that purchase managers never make a mistake, that is also your privilege.
Murphy Siding Could it be that it is as complicated as rocket science or nuclear physics and maybe you're the one that doesn't get it? The railroads were told to spend their money to go and fix a problem that some politicians felt needed to be fixed, without a real clear cut plan. If you had to spend your money on a major expense that ultimately affected your company's whole future, wouldn't you want to take your time and do it right?
If you choose to believe it is that complicated, that is your privilege. If you choose to believe that purchase managers never make a mistake, that is also your privilege.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingCould it be that it is as complicated as rocket science or nuclear physics and maybe you're the one that doesn't get it? The railroads were told to spend their money to go and fix a problem that some politicians felt needed to be fixed, without a real clear cut plan. If you had to spend your money on a major expense that ultimately affected your company's whole future, wouldn't you want to take your time and do it right?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm BaltACD schlimm An extension to Dec. 31, 2018 should suffice. Ten years is a long time since the mandate was passed in 2008. It took less time to send men to the moon, build an atom bomb, etc. Neither of which was privately funded. So what? PTC is not rocket science or nuclear physics. Why did the US rails elect to go with an entirely new design? Why didn't they buy the products from Siemens (ECTS-Trainguard) or Hitachi (ATACS)?
BaltACD schlimm An extension to Dec. 31, 2018 should suffice. Ten years is a long time since the mandate was passed in 2008. It took less time to send men to the moon, build an atom bomb, etc. Neither of which was privately funded.
schlimm An extension to Dec. 31, 2018 should suffice. Ten years is a long time since the mandate was passed in 2008. It took less time to send men to the moon, build an atom bomb, etc.
An extension to Dec. 31, 2018 should suffice. Ten years is a long time since the mandate was passed in 2008. It took less time to send men to the moon, build an atom bomb, etc.
Neither of which was privately funded.
So what? PTC is not rocket science or nuclear physics. Why did the US rails elect to go with an entirely new design? Why didn't they buy the products from Siemens (ECTS-Trainguard) or Hitachi (ATACS)?
Sorry Don, but you are confused. The Transportation Technology Center in Pueblo is owned by USDOT. TTCI (Incorporated) operates it:
Welcome to Transportation Technology Center, Inc. (TTCI), a wholly owned subsidiary of the Association of American Railroads. TTCI is a world-class transportation research and testing organization, providing emerging technology solutions for the railway industry throughout North America and the world.
schlimm BaltACD because the AAR is a mouthpiece and was parroting the belief that it was a 10 minute home repair - seriously underestimating the size of the undertaking for the RAILROAD INDUSTRY [from the AAR website]: "AAR is the world's leading railroad policy, research and technology organization focusing on the safety and productivity of rail carriers." The AAR also owns the Transportation Technology Center, Inc. which manages/operates the FRA's facility in Pueblo. Doesn't sound like a just another DC mouthpiece, i/e., lobbyist. http://www.aar.com/ So I guess from your perspective, they are just liars (or trolls).
BaltACD because the AAR is a mouthpiece and was parroting the belief that it was a 10 minute home repair - seriously underestimating the size of the undertaking for the RAILROAD INDUSTRY
[from the AAR website]: "AAR is the world's leading railroad policy, research and technology organization focusing on the safety and productivity of rail carriers."
The AAR also owns the Transportation Technology Center, Inc. which manages/operates the FRA's facility in Pueblo. Doesn't sound like a just another DC mouthpiece, i/e., lobbyist. http://www.aar.com/
So I guess from your perspective, they are just liars (or trolls).
The AAR doesn't own TTCI. They are just leasing it. Uncle Sam still owns it.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Because those aren't off-the-shelf ready for US freight railroading, either.
zugmann oltmannd Meh. Had the RRs been more active in exanding train control technology over the past 40 years, they probably could have headed off PTC legislation at the pass and built out a system to their own specs at their own pace. Exactly. I feel not one bit of sorrow for these railroad companies. They knew this stuff was coming years ago. Is safety first more than a slogan?
oltmannd Meh. Had the RRs been more active in exanding train control technology over the past 40 years, they probably could have headed off PTC legislation at the pass and built out a system to their own specs at their own pace.
Exactly. I feel not one bit of sorrow for these railroad companies. They knew this stuff was coming years ago. Is safety first more than a slogan?
They've been doing it with ECP braking, too. Those chickens are just starting to roost.
tree68 schlimm So what? PTC is not rocket science or nuclear physics. Why did the US rails elect to go with an entirely new design? Why didn't they buy the products from Siemens (ECTS-Trainguard) or Hitachi (ATACS)? Given the ways of US bureacracy, neither probably met the requirements for some reason or another.
schlimm So what? PTC is not rocket science or nuclear physics. Why did the US rails elect to go with an entirely new design? Why didn't they buy the products from Siemens (ECTS-Trainguard) or Hitachi (ATACS)?
Given the ways of US bureacracy, neither probably met the requirements for some reason or another.
Could be but I don't recall the mandate gave any specs. More likely other reasons within the rail's bureaucracy. Purchasing managers tend to seek business from folks they have a history with.
schlimmSo what? PTC is not rocket science or nuclear physics. Why did the US rails elect to go with an entirely new design? Why didn't they buy the products from Siemens (ECTS-Trainguard) or Hitachi (ATACS)?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
We have the best government money can buy. The date will be pushed back.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
CMStPnP I think some of you that are posting here that a shutdown will not happen should look at the amount of the daily fines for non-compliance that the government will levy FOR EACH INCIDENT OF VIOLATION. It's well above pocket change.
I think some of you that are posting here that a shutdown will not happen should look at the amount of the daily fines for non-compliance that the government will levy FOR EACH INCIDENT OF VIOLATION. It's well above pocket change.
I posted that before. Each vioation per day is $10-30K, fairly costly. But that seems to only apply to running hazardous cargo and passenger trains. If an extension has not been passed by Congress by Jan. 1 (I believe it will), embargo them (running Amtrak passenger trains cost the freight lines money), run everything else and wait a few days for Congress to act. It's really a lot of hysteria.
schlimm BaltACD [from the AAR website]: "AAR is the world's leading railroad policy, research and technology organization focusing on the safety and productivity of rail carriers." The AAR also owns the Transportation Technology Center, Inc. which manages/operates the FRA's facility in Pueblo. Doesn't sound like a just another DC mouthpiece, i/e., lobbyist. http://www.aar.com/ So I guess from your perspective, they are just liars (or trolls).
BaltACD
They SERIOUSLY UNDERESTIMATED the size and complexity of the undertaking.
Since almost all Amtrak operations outside of the NEC lose money, there would be no monetary damages to Amtrak. Long shot, but maybe passengers could claim damages but only if no other transportation means was available. The TIH volume is small enough to pay to make it go away as they tried to get rid of it before.
I am not aware of anything in the mandate tht would impose fines for most traffic, only on lines running passenger trains and hazardous materials. If there were a embargo on that traffic for a few days, it would not be cataclysmic.
BaltACDbecause the AAR is a mouthpiece and was parroting the belief that it was a 10 minute home repair - seriously underestimating the size of the undertaking for the RAILROAD INDUSTRY
Further on my post above:
"Courts of equity will not act when there is adequate remedy at law."
Courts generally prefer to order someone to not do something; they are extremely reluctant to order someone to actually do something, because of the difficulty of monitoring, supervising and enforcing the performance of said acts.
(Thank goodness Mrs. Palsgraf vs. Long Island RR is not involved in any of this [inside joke, goes to the "forseeability" of the chain of results of and hence damages from the wrongful act] ).
- Paul North.
Excerpt from the Reuters article
In a July 24 letter provided to Reuters by BNSF, railroad president and chief executive Carl Ice informed Elliott that BNSF is analyzing the possibility of a service shutdown and actively consulting with customers.
Excerpt from Carl Ice’s letter to Daniel Elliott
schlimm BaltACD schlimm The mandate was passed in the RSIA in 2008, so seven years before the deadline. It was endorsed by the AAR in a written statement by its CEO, Edward Hamberger. and it was NOT either a designed or purchasable product from any vendor or consortium of vendors and no standards existed for it. You all know about the 10 minute home repair job - that ends up taking 10 months and $10K to finally accomplish once the real significance of the repair becomes clear and understood. I agree. So why did the AAR endorse the deadline in 2008? Since they certanily would have known there was no US off-the-shelf system available, why didn't they push for a later deadline at that point? Or adapt the proven European system which is becoming the world standard? Or Japanese?
BaltACD schlimm The mandate was passed in the RSIA in 2008, so seven years before the deadline. It was endorsed by the AAR in a written statement by its CEO, Edward Hamberger. and it was NOT either a designed or purchasable product from any vendor or consortium of vendors and no standards existed for it. You all know about the 10 minute home repair job - that ends up taking 10 months and $10K to finally accomplish once the real significance of the repair becomes clear and understood.
schlimm The mandate was passed in the RSIA in 2008, so seven years before the deadline. It was endorsed by the AAR in a written statement by its CEO, Edward Hamberger. and it was NOT either a designed or purchasable product from any vendor or consortium of vendors and no standards existed for it.
The mandate was passed in the RSIA in 2008, so seven years before the deadline. It was endorsed by the AAR in a written statement by its CEO, Edward Hamberger.
and it was NOT either a designed or purchasable product from any vendor or consortium of vendors and no standards existed for it.
You all know about the 10 minute home repair job - that ends up taking 10 months and $10K to finally accomplish once the real significance of the repair becomes clear and understood.
I agree. So why did the AAR endorse the deadline in 2008? Since they certanily would have known there was no US off-the-shelf system available, why didn't they push for a later deadline at that point? Or adapt the proven European system which is becoming the world standard? Or Japanese?
because the AAR is a mouthpiece and was parroting the belief that it was a 10 minute home repair - seriously underestimating the size of the undertaking for the RAILROAD INDUSTRY, not just a individual carrier that could probably kluge together something that would operate on their property alone (like Amtrak has done with the NEC - with the NEC being electric their locomotives won't be operating on the rest of the railroads and thus don't have to have interoperatability).
schlimm The mandate was passed in the RSIA in 2008, so seven years before the deadline. It was endorsed by the AAR in a written statement by its CEO, Edward Hamberger.
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