Free Speech, Advertisers and Trains

[schlimm]

Semper Vaporo

It is interesting that it is socially acceptable for a "sports fan" to paint their bare chest with the team icon, dye their hair in the team colors, and jump up and down screaming when watching their team participate in a sports contest, and it is also almost expected that these same people will RIOT and destroy property when their team wins (or loses) especially if they are the visiting team in another city.  Yet, if a "Rail Fan" wears a replica Engineer's hat or has a pin sporting a railroad logo on a simple cap, they are labeled "Foamers" and are looked upon with distain.

I say that the "Sport" of watching trains is a more interesting sport than say, basketball or football, because the "Railroad spectator" does not need a bevy of bodacious half-necked "Broads" leaping around in front of them to peak their interest in the purported reason for the "fan" being there in the first place.

And a "Rail Fan" will stay trackside as long as possible before they have to go home (or maybe longer if they are a diehard, risking being late getting home), but a Baseball fan will get bored with a slow game and go home early thinking that nothing worth seeing will happen in the last 2 innings if it hasn't been happening already, so why stick around.

Everybody has a "sport" that they enjoy and "Railroads" is just a valid of a "spectator sport" as watching Chess, Checkers or Ping-Pong matches, or any of the professional, college, High school, grade school, nursery school or amateur "ball" games.

 

 

Whatever your taste is, that's the way it goes.   Many non-railroaders also consider railfans to be oddballs. 

[wanswheel]

Lincoln again: “but let us judge not, that we be not judged.”

[wanswheel]

“Judge not, lest ye be judged,” the famous six-word version, perhaps originated in 1683.

[Falcon48]

Let me make a few observations regarding the "Modoc Railway Academy" comments on the Philadelphia accident.  This firm was previously in California, but is now in Marion, IL.

 

1.  As others have pointed out, the first amendment only applies to government actions which suppress free expression of views.  It does not apply to private actions.  A private company (like Kalmbach) is free to cease doing business with Modoc because of the views that company has expressed.  You're seeing something similar being played out right now with various companies terminating their business relationships with Donald Trump because of the views he recently expressed on Mexican immigrants. 

 

2.  That said, I see no particular reason why Trains should decline Modoc advertising.  It seems to me that Modoc is itself destroying the value of its advertising with its ill considered and ill advised comments.  Think about it a second - why does Modoc advertise in Trains in first place?  Answer: they expect the advertising to result in business from people who read Trains and want its "training" programs.  Who are those people?  They aren't people who are already professional railroaders.  They are people not now in the rail industry who want to go into the operating side of the industry.  Why are these people reading Trains (and Modoc's advertisements)? It's because they have a hobby interest in the industry.  So, Modoc is insulting and denigrating the very people it is trying to get to be its customers.  Why would anyone in his (or her) right mind want to sign up for a "training" program with a company that thinks that it's customers are idiots and not qualified to run trains because of their hobby interests?  Personally, if I were someone trying to get into the operating side of the rail industry, I wouldn't touch Modoc with a ten foot pole.

 

3.  This isn't the first time that the Modoc "Railway Academy" has made a boneheaded attack on people with a hobby interest in the rail industry.  The link shown below will take you to comments Modoc filed in FRA's "training" rulemaking, in which Modoc took the position that all tourist rail operations were essentially unsafe (a position FRA firmly rejected in its final rule decision).  This was clearly a thinly disguised attempt to get FRA to adopt a rule that would create an artificial demand for the "services" the "academy" provides. Whoever is running this "academy" obviously has a chip on his (or her) shoulder when it comes to people who have a hobby interest in the rail industy.  Again, a good reason not to do business with them.

 

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FRA-2009-0033-0012

 

4.  Finally, Modoc got itself into trouble with California educational authorities over its business practices and was assessed with hefty fines.  Attached below are links to the initial citations and the decision on appeal affirming the citations.  I don't know whether this is what triggered Modoc's move from California to Illinois.  But, whether it did or not, it's yet another reason not to do business with them.

 

 

http://www.bppe.ca.gov/enforcement/actions/citation_1314004.pdf

 

 

http://www.bppe.ca.gov/enforcement/actions/decision_1314004.pdf

 

Forewarned is forearmed. 

    

[schlimm]

Falcon48

Let me make a few observations regarding the "Modoc Railway Academy" comments on the Philadelphia accident.  This firm was previously in California, but is now in Marion, IL.

 

1.  As others have pointed out, the first amendment only applies to government actions which suppress free expression of views.  It does not apply to private actions.  A private company (like Kalmbach) is free to cease doing business with Modoc because of the views that company has expressed.  You're seeing something similar being played out right now with various companies terminating their business relationships with Donald Trump because of the views he recently expressed on Mexican immigrants. 

 

2.  That said, I see no particular reason why Trains should decline Modoc advertising.  It seems to me that Modoc is itself destroying the value of its advertising with its ill considered and ill advised comments.  Think about it a second - why does Modoc advertise in Trains in first place?  Answer: they expect the advertising to result in business from people who read Trains and want its "training" programs.  Who are those people?  They aren't people who are already professional railroaders.  They are people not now in the rail industry who want to go into the operating side of the industry.  Why are these people reading Trains (and Modoc's advertisements)? It's because they have a hobby interest in the industry.  So, Modoc is insulting and denigrating the very people it is trying to get to be its customers.  Why would anyone in his (or her) right mind want to sign up for a "training" program with a company that thinks that it's customers are idiots and not qualified to run trains because of their hobby interests?  Personally, if I were someone trying to get into the operating side of the rail industry, I wouldn't touch Modoc with a ten foot pole.

 

3.  This isn't the first time that the Modoc "Railway Academy" has made a boneheaded attack on people with a hobby interest in the rail industry.  The link shown below will take you to comments Modoc filed in FRA's "training" rulemaking, in which Modoc took the position that all tourist rail operations were essentially unsafe (a position FRA firmly rejected in its final rule decision).  This was clearly a thinly disguised attempt to get FRA to adopt a rule that would create an artificial demand for the "services" the "academy" provides. Whoever is running this "academy" obviously has a chip on his (or her) shoulder when it comes to people who have a hobby interest in the rail industy.  Again, a good reason not to do business with them.

 

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FRA-2009-0033-0012

 

4.  Finally, Modoc got itself into trouble with California educational authorities over its business practices and was assessed with hefty fines.  Attached below are links to the initial citations and the decision on appeal affirming the citations.  I don't know whether this is what triggered Modoc's move from California to Illinois.  But, whether it did or not, it's yet another reason not to do business with them.

 

 

http://www.bppe.ca.gov/enforcement/actions/citation_1314004.pdf

 

 

http://www.bppe.ca.gov/enforcement/actions/decision_1314004.pdf

 

Forewarned is forearmed. 

    

 

In many ways, Modoc seems to exhibit the profile of a diploma/certificate mill, much like some private "technical" schools (truck driving, etc).  There is a characteristic contempt for its prospective students.

[Euclid]

I think the home of foamer contempt is the railroad industry.  Rangel is just making it clear to them which side he is on. 

[BaltACD]

Euclid

I think the home of foamer contempt is the railroad industry.  Rangel is just making it clear to them which side he is on.

And with the Sanctions by the State of California it is abundently clear where Rangel sides.  $$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Falcon48]

Euclid

I think the home of foamer contempt is the railroad industry.  Rangel is just making it clear to them which side he is on. 

 

 I spent my entire careeer working for Class I railroads.  It was well known throughout my career that i had a strong hobby interest in railroads and i never tried to disguise it (the big picture of a North Shore Electroliner that always hung in my office was a dead giveaway).  It never hurt me. Rather the opposite - it was clearly viewed as an asset by my superiors, and they told me as much.  That's not really surprising, since there are many people in high management positions in the rail industry who can fairly be charcterized as railfans, and it hasn't hurt their careers either.  Most of the key strategic people who shaped the modern rail industry are unabashed railfans.  And that's what you would expect. After all, are the people who shaped the modern computer industry mindless drones who have no interest in their business and are just collecting a paycheck?  Of course not. The valuable people in this industry are people who are passionate about their industry. It's no different with railroads.

I think the perception that railroads are hostile to railfans comes from three sources:

First, having a hobby interest in railroads is an asset to a railroad career only if that interest is used to further the business.  A person who is only interested in steam locomotives in the early 20th century, and can tell you the number of rivets in the tenders of every loco built for UPRR from 1900 to 1944 does not have any knowledge or interests of use to a modern railroad. Ditto, someone who is one of the "lunatic fringe" of the railfan fraternity, interested only in getting that perfect picture, even if it means grossly unsafe behavior.  Come across as someone like this, and you will not be hired by a railroad. But people who are interested in the railroad business or modern railroad technologies are definitely of value.  I know of instances where people have been hired over other applicants for management positions because of their hobby interests in the railroad business 

Second, I know from discussions with people who hire railroad operating personnel that they can be leery of railfan applicants because of a concern that railfans may not have realistic expectations about what this career entails.  It is an interesting job, but it is not a "glory" job.  It is shift work, with irregular hours (particularly until they have built up seniority) and a lifestyle that people with a hobby interest in railroad might not fully appreciate or tolerate very long.

Third, unfortunately, the most "visible" railfans to railroad operating personnel are the lunatic fringe of the railfan community.  The vast majority of the railfan community is largely invisible to railroad operating personnel - it's the lunatic fringe that they see.  For management personnel who are not themsleves railfans, this can color their percptions of people who have a hobby interest in the industry.      

 

  

[tree68]

Falcon48

Third, unfortunately, the most "visible" railfans to railroad operating personnel are the lunatic fringe of the railfan community.  The vast majority of the railfan community is largely invisible to railroad operating personnel - it's the lunatic fringe that they see.  

Methinks that part of the issue is that for some if I simply sit at a crossing and admire a passing train, I'm OK as a railfan.  If I step out of my vehicle and take a picture, I become a member of the lunatic fringe...

I've heard it said that some railroad employees can't figure out why anyone would want to watch them work.  Alas, there are a number of vocations that have fans - fire, construction, and aircraft to mention a few.  It's not unique to railroading.

[Euclid]

Falcon48,

I understand your point.  I would say that the majority of railroaders do not hate railfans, even if they are fringe fans with cameras.  It is just that in general, if there is contempt for fans, most of it resides in the railroad operating culture.  Who else would even know about railfans?  The general non-fan, non-railroader public has never heard the term “foamer,” so it is fairly easy to find its home.  And I doubt that the term originates with the railfan base.

I have known railroaders who held their company in contempt in a sort of cold war mentality.  It was an “us versus them” mentality that arose from union empowerment versus the perception of an employer who was always out to get them.  People with that attitude, hating the railroad management culture, are naturally suspect of railfans who appear to love railroading.  I believe that is the root of foamer disdain to the extent that it exists.

I was amazed to learn of the comments by Modoc exec Rangel, and it really made me wonder what makes him tick.  On one hand he could be one of those extremists who lash out at railfans.  But it seems like there may be more at work with his attitude. 

As I mentioned elsewhere, I think his foamer disdain is based on his own defensiveness rather than on outward aggression alone.  His business brings him close to both fans and railroaders.  I think he senses the railfan contempt in the railroader culture and worries that his training of enthusiastic novices will brand him as a foamer by association in the eyes of the railroad culture.  

When you think about it, Rangel’s worry about being accepted into the railroad culture as though it were a clique is a characteristic of what defines foamers.  So I conclude that Rangel was lashing out at an image of himself that he is running away from.  I believe his animosity is driven by his own fear of the foamer label. 

That is one part of Rangel’s character, but I see another more sinister part that is revealed in his famous comment.  He made up a wreck theory that viciously attacked Amtrak Engineer Bostian’s character.  And the theory seemed to have no basis whatsoever except to serve as a vessel to carry Rangel’s exaggerated message about foamers.  That is downright weird.   

Maybe Trains ought to extend Rangel an offer to write an editorial explaining his views on the distinction between railfans and foamers.     

[wanswheel]

Trains doesn’t owe Rangel space to explain himself. He deleted his remarks about Bostian, that'll do, let him go.

[daveklepper]

I discussed why I think he used "foamer" instead of another adjective, implying hatred of a specific "minority group" (for whom the engineer has been an outspoken advocate) in an early comment, not my latest, on Fred's blog.

But I don't believe in boycotts.  If I had a son or daughter who wished to study at Modoc, I would not dissuade him or her on the basis of the stupid Facebook posting.   Rather, I would check the quality of the education offered and the people who actually teach there.

[Falcon48]

tree68

 

 

Falcon48

Third, unfortunately, the most "visible" railfans to railroad operating personnel are the lunatic fringe of the railfan community.  The vast majority of the railfan community is largely invisible to railroad operating personnel - it's the lunatic fringe that they see.  

 

 

Methinks that part of the issue is that for some if I simply sit at a crossing and admire a passing train, I'm OK as a railfan.  If I step out of my vehicle and take a picture, I become a member of the lunatic fringe...

I've heard it said that some railroad employees can't figure out why anyone would want to watch them work.  Alas, there are a number of vocations that have fans - fire, construction, and aircraft to mention a few.  It's not unique to railroading.

 

tree68

 

 

Falcon48

Third, unfortunately, the most "visible" railfans to railroad operating personnel are the lunatic fringe of the railfan community.  The vast majority of the railfan community is largely invisible to railroad operating personnel - it's the lunatic fringe that they see.  

 

 

Methinks that part of the issue is that for some if I simply sit at a crossing and admire a passing train, I'm OK as a railfan.  If I step out of my vehicle and take a picture, I become a member of the lunatic fringe...

I've heard it said that some railroad employees can't figure out why anyone would want to watch them work.  Alas, there are a number of vocations that have fans - fire, construction, and aircraft to mention a few.  It's not unique to railroading.

 

 I did not mean to suggest that every person who takes pictures of trains is part of the "lunatic fringe" of the railfan fraternity.  Many people in many hobbies take pictures of their hobby interests, and there is nothing wrong or "weird" in that. I used to take train pictures in my younger years, until I realized that they took a lot of work, weren't very good, and ended up in boxes that I never looked at.  Then I started buying books with pictures taken by people who knew what they were doing and put my camera away for good.  

My comment was directed at the boorish, often grossly unsafe railfans to whom the perfect picture is the only worthwhile goal in the hobby (and possibly in their entire lives).  We've all run into people like this, and so have railroad operating personnel.   

[jeffhergert]

Like the ones I observed the first time UP ran a steam engine over the CNW after they acquired it.  A car (automobile type) load of fans trying to get to their next photo location wanted to turn off old hwy 30 in central Iowa onto a farmer's field crossing.  They were going to fast to make the turn and ended up driving right into the ditch.  No one was hurt, but the ditch may have been too steep to drive back out of.

Jeff   

[tree68]

Falcon48

My comment was directed at the boorish, often grossly unsafe railfans to whom the perfect picture is the only worthwhile goal in the hobby (and possibly in their entire lives).  We've all run into people like this, and so have railroad operating personnel.   

And mine was directed to the folks who view any railfan activity as boorish, often grossly unsafe, even if it's standing in the middle of a public parking lot while taking the picture.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Falcon48

[snipped - PDN] . . . 1.  As others have pointed out, the first amendment only applies to government actions which suppress free expression of views.  It does not apply to private actions.  A private company (like Kalmbach) is free to cease doing business with Modoc because of the views that company has expressed.  You're seeing something similar being played out right now with various companies terminating their business relationships with Donald Trump because of the views he recently expressed on Mexican immigrants. . . .

"+1"  Too many people are sadly ignorant of this principle.

The late comedian Robin Williams - in his role as Vladimir Ivanoff in the 1984 movie "Moscow on the Hudson" - had something like this to say on the subject:

"In Russia we too have free speech.  The difference is that in America, you have freedom after the speech !"

- Paul North. 

[BaltACD]

Freedom of speech does not mean one has freedom from the repercussions of those that have heard the speech and disagree with what was said.

[oltmannd]

Euclid

He conjectures that the engineer was testing to see if PTC would bleed over onto his track if he exceeded the speed limit.  Anything is possible, but that sounds like an overly wild and grand theory.  It also amounts to accusing the engineer of what probably would rise the being criminal.  Where would Rangel even get such an idea from?  Why would the engineer want to perform the test that Rangel suggests? 

It shows Rangel has no trouble talking about things he knows almost nothing about.  There is nothing but CCS on those tracks - no civil speed ACSES stuff at all.  There is no "PTC to test" - just to get started.  

There is no law stopping stupid people from talking...

[edblysard]

 No law against being stupid, and sadly, drips like this get people to listen to them.

By the way, Jade Helm started....anyone remember where we left the FEMA prisoner box cars with the shackles?

[The Butler]

edblysard

 No law against being stupid, and sadly, drips like this get people to listen to them.

By the way, Jade Helm started....anyone remember where we left the FEMA prisoner box cars with the shackles?

 

Ed, I saw some parked at UP's car shop in De Soto, Missouri... 

[Murphy Siding]

edblysard

 No law against being stupid, and sadly, drips like this get people to listen to them.

By the way, Jade Helm started....anyone remember where we left the FEMA prisoner box cars with the shackles?

 

   I believe the majority of those are still parked on the Milwaukee Road Pacific Coast Extention- the part that was left after the government and BN conspired to put the high-profit line out of business.

[Wizlish]

Murphy Siding

I believe the majority of those are still parked on the Milwaukee Road Pacific Coast Extention- the part that was left after the government and BN conspired to put the high-profit line out of business.

The PCE is one test of the TinBlocker Perception Modulation System, the secret black program to 'hide things in plain sight' by making them look abandoned.  From their extensive modern skyscraper HQ in Detroit, Michigan, and their satellite offices disguised as rail-to-trail organizations, testing continues.  This makes America's world enemies complacent, 'trusting their senses' right up to the moment that snap! they find themselves in 'Willie Class' (named for the President who initiated the BDMS) on their way to their first meeting with re-education.

Of course, the profitable traffic on the PCE is currently handled by the gravity-polarizing maglev constructed below the old right-of-way... part of the 22,000-odd mile system of magnetic levitation built over the last 60 odd years.

[schlimm]

Wizlish

Of course, the profitable traffic on the PCE is currently handled by the gravity-polarizing maglev constructed below the old right-of-way... part of the 22,000-odd mile system of magnetic levitation built over the last 60 odd years.

Texas seems to contain a lot of commenters on that!!

[Wizlish]

schlimm

Texas seems to contain a lot of commenters on that!!

Including Dylan Hunt?

[schlimm]

Not sure about fictional characters, but check out blogs, comment sections in TX newspapers and even some TX politicians for a lot of bizarre conspiracy theories.  Such fantasy musings are not limited to TX, of course, and many/most Texans are fine folks.

[oltmannd]

Fine line between entertaining and scary...

[edblysard]

Funny, they list Texas as a hostile state...whats up with that?

[Murphy Siding]

edblysard

Funny, they list Texas as a hostile state...whats up with that?

 

 Well duh!  Everyone knows they're in on the fix too!

[Murphy Siding]

Wizlish

 

 

Murphy Siding

I believe the majority of those are still parked on the Milwaukee Road Pacific Coast Extention- the part that was left after the government and BN conspired to put the high-profit line out of business.

 

 

The PCE is one test of the TinBlocker Perception Modulation System, the secret black program to 'hide things in plain sight' by making them look abandoned.  From their extensive modern skyscraper HQ in Detroit, Michigan, and their satellite offices disguised as rail-to-trail organizations, testing continues.  This makes America's world enemies complacent, 'trusting their senses' right up to the moment that snap! they find themselves in 'Willie Class' (named for the President who initiated the BDMS) on their way to their first meeting with re-education.

Of course, the profitable traffic on the PCE is currently handled by the gravity-polarizing maglev constructed below the old right-of-way... part of the 22,000-odd mile system of magnetic levitation built over the last 60 odd years.

 

 This eerily reminds me of the old idea of playing shell games with missiles on rail cars.

[edblysard]

Hey,

Just because we have Ft Hood, Ft Bliss, Ft Sam Houston, Lackland, Randolph AFB, Chorpus Christi NAS, and about 30 more bases...