Free Speech, Advertisers and Trains

[zugmann]

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deleted

[schlimm]

I agree.   I don't know what the advertiser's exec posted on FB, but it became part of the public domain.  Others, including employers, cusomers and magazines have the right to react to his posts as they wish, including termination, boycotting his company's products and withdrawing his adverisement. It rightfully happens in academia as well as many other places.   

[Euclid]

Why is it that the comments of the advertiser are not stated anywhere in this discussion or Fred Failey's blog?  Have his comments been expunged from the public record?  It would be a lot easier to side against him if we knew what offense he committed.   

[schlimm]

Euclid

Why is it that the comments of the advertiser are not stated anywhere in this discussion or Fred Failey's blog?  Have his comments been expunged from the public record?  It would be a lot easier to side against him if we knew what offense he committed.   

 

I guess they are on Facebook.

[zugmann]

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deleted

 

[edblysard]

Here is my take, for what it worth.

If the KKK, NAACP, LULAC and others can buy advertising space in magazines, newspapers and other publications to express their point of views, whether you agree with what their agenda, opinion or viewpoint is,( or not,) then the advertiser in question has the same freedoms….same as you do to post your opinions, viewpoints and agendas here.

That’s said, Trains has the right to refund the guys money, or refuse it in the first place, and not publish his statement, or place a disclaimer along with it.

Keep in mind, the law has to apply equally, so if you censor him, don’t get upset if someone wants to censor you.

[wanswheel]

What it takes to become a train engineer

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/4237105468001/what-it-takes-to-become-a-train-engineer/?#sp=show-clips

[Euclid]

zugmann

They were.  Guess removed, but archived in other places.  Whatever.  Seems like some people got all worked up in the blog when I expressed an opinion.  If I could delete this thread, I would. 

 

 

 

Zugmann,

I did look at your comments on the current reiteration of this topic on Fred Frailey’s blog, and noted how they made Rail Pundit bristle with insults.  In my opinion, he dilutes the effect of his comeback by exaggerating it.  Snarkiness is a fine art, and is most potent when used in moderation. 

This topic seems like an onion with many layers of principle.  Speaking of analogies, I don’t like Fred’s use of ponderous analogies to explain something that I could understand if it were just explained without an analogy.  The use of an overblown analogy is condescending to the listener because it implies that he or she is incapable of getting the story without it being reduced to an analogy.  Fred’s Jack and Jill analogy made me tired.

I believe that the one most important element of this onion is the actual remarks of the Modoc executive.  If I knew what he said, I might write him a letter.  As far as Trains goes, it’s their call as to controversial ads.  It’s the same with controversial magazine content.  I remember when the all diesel issue drove readers nuts.  Controversy sells magazines, but can also reduce sales.    

Going back to the Modoc guy, it is hard to believe his use of the term, “foamer” caused such a ruckus.  He must have gone into extra detail that really touched a nerve.     

[schlimm]

If the guy with MODOC in the Fox interview posted by Wanswheel is the same person who said "foamer" and possibly other things on his FB page, I fail to see what is the big deal.

[schlimm]

edblysard

Here is my take, for what it worth.

If the KKK, NAACP, LULAC and others can buy advertising space in magazines, newspapers and other publications to express their point of views, whether you agree with what their agenda, opinion or viewpoint is,( or not,) then the advertiser in question has the same freedoms….same as you do to post your opinions, viewpoints and agendas here.

That’s said, Trains has the right to refund the guys money, or refuse it in the first place, and not publish his statement, or place a disclaimer along with it.

Keep in mind, the law has to apply equally, so if you censor him, don’t get upset if someone wants to censor you.

 

+1

[Euclid]

schlimm

If the guy with MODOC in the Fox interview posted by Wanswheel is the same person who said "foamer" and possibly other things on his FB page, I fail to see what is the big deal.

 

I don't see how that video sheds any light on the comments made by him that caused the controversy. 

[Euclid]

I can’t deal with this story.  With all of the discussion including two successive Frailey blogs and all the comments reacting to them, am I to believe that nobody actually knows what Rangel said?  I have never seen such a monster story with no subject. 

[wanswheel]

Members of Trainorders know exactly what the guy wrote.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3745675

[Euclid]

They must know, being that they posted the comments, but they are not telling, and you have to be a member to read the comments.  I gather from reading between the lines, that Rangel accused Engineer Bostian of risking lives to see how fast the train would go. 

This whole brouhaha reminds me of the fake story about the conductor ruining Steve Glischinski’s shot on the CN.

What Trains magazine ought to do is run an editorial as a counterpoint to Rangel’s comments.  That ought to satisfy the railfans, and Rangel probably does not have any alternatives to Trains for advertising. 

[Wizlish]

Euclid

They must know, being that they posted the comments, but they are not telling, and you have to be a member to read the comments. I gather from reading between the lines, that Rangel accused Engineer Bostian of risking lives to see how fast the train would go.

Go to the "I Hate Railfans" page and you can read Rangel's comment for yourself (it is a screenshot picture, one of the first 'comments' to the main May 15 comment about Rangel).  Then look at what the rest of the comments were, if you like; I had no trouble getting them to display.  For the sake of completeness (and to provide a little actual source material for these comment-a-thons in Fred's blog and here), I provide the actual (albeit a bit bowdlerized) quotes from the FB pages in question.

I'm not providing the screenshot, since it contains a 'non-family-friendly' word (and I'm not linking to the page because it contains a LOT more non-family-friendly 'spressin') but what Rangel said was this:

I conjecture this person was "testing" Positive Train Control (PTC).  PTC was live and active on three of the four tracks ... A turn posted for 50 MPH, but known to tolerate 80 MPH to see if the PTC system will bleed over onto train 188 tracks...

Just another goofy foamer, who fooled the Amtrak HR recruiters and finally had all the foam in his head drool away and leave him devoid of rational thinking...experimenting with the lives of hundreds of people...

Accompanying this was a picture of Bostian as the conductor, with a grin on his face and his hat looking a bit too large; Rangel prefaced the above remarks with "In the end, this is the only photograph I needed to see".  (This picture can be clearly seen on the I Hate Foamers page, even to non-FB members like me...)

The 'expurgated' answer provided by 'I Hate Foamers' was as follows:

He blames the Amtrak accident on the engineer being a foamer. There is a big difference between a foamer and someone liking trains getting into the industry. The engineer had his job on Amtrak for 8 years if I recall correctly. Nobody lasts that long in the industry if they're that incompetant--especially on a class 1. More importantly, MODOC is the reason why there are foamers infiltrating the industry. If anyone is stupid enough to pay this guy money, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near equipment.

What might have been the call to action about Trains comes quickly in the following comment (language also cleaned up a bit):

Tell ya what, they [Rangel's Modoc] advertise in foamer rag Trains magazine. Trains has a Facebook page. I've already expressed my displeasure to them about this ... zero. Everyone else should do the same.

NebraskaZephyr over on trainorders seems to be one of the major voices lobbying to get Trains (and the White River 'counterpart' publications) to boycott:

I'm asking each of you to let the railfan press know that implicit approval of such disrespect will not be tolerated and to contact the major magazines and ask they refuse further print or digital advertising from Modoc and its affiliates if they wish to continue to enjoy your business:

 

[Euclid]

Holy smokes.  If somebody seems worthy of being discredited as a “foamer,” it is Rangel.  He conjectures that the engineer was testing to see if PTC would bleed over onto his track if he exceeded the speed limit.  Anything is possible, but that sounds like an overly wild and grand theory.  It also amounts to accusing the engineer of what probably would rise the being criminal. 

Where would Rangel even get such an idea from?  Why would the engineer want to perform the test that Rangel suggests? 

And then for Rangel to word his foamer rant in the incredibly vindictive way that he does sounds juvenile, and a little creepy.  It is almost as if Rangel himself is running away from the foamer label by projecting that image on others, and then lashing out at them.  Maybe his running away from that label has something to do with the business he is in.  He does not seem like the kind of person that should be teaching people how to be railroaders.    

[wanswheel]

Excerpt from CNN, December 10, 2013

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/10/us/new-york-train-wreck-safety/

David Rangel, an instructor at the Modoc Railroad Academy in Marion, Illinois, advocates putting another person in the engineer's cab of commuter trains, a practice that is common in freight trains and airplane cockpits.

"It will increase the cost, of course, but the alternative that the railroads are looking at, and the federal government is trying to force on the railroads, positive train control, is certainly much more costly," Rangel told CNN. "We're into the hundreds of millions of dollars right now and we haven't even had the implementation of that system. ... The problem here is that we are dealing with humans in the cabs of those locomotives and we have frailties."

 

Excerpt from Popular Mechanics, March 24, 2014

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a3134/how-trains-can-be-silent-killers-16627219/

"Statistically, every 94 minutes something or someone is getting hit by a train in the United States," says David Rangel, deputy director of Modoc Railroad, a training school for future train engineers...

Throughout his career, Rangel has two fatalities while operating a train. One of his two sons, who are also engineers, has four. The toll on the men and women operating these trains can be almost as difficult as the grieving families. "It never leaves," Rangel says.

[schlimm]

After reading some of the previous excerpts, both Rangel and his detractors, the creepiness index went off the charts.   A whole lot of weirdness out there.

[wanswheel]

Fred Frailey is one sly journalist.  He got the offensive remarks published on this website without breaking George Carlin’s first law of limited involvement: Don’t get any on ya.

[schlimm]

That Rangel imputed motivation to the engineer by looking at a photograph is bizarre; that he determined that Bastian's motivation was to test the limits of PTC strikes me as delusional.  As I said, a whole lot of weirdness out there, maybe even psychotic thinking.

[Euclid]

For the most part, there are only two groups of people who have heard the disparaging term “foamer,” and they are railfans and railroaders.  And railfans did not invent the term.  From various personal accounts, I gather that there is a fair amount of disdain for railfans among the railroader community.  This is evidenced in the well-known advice to never let a prospective railroad employer know you are a railfan when seeking a job.

Out of thin air, Rangel pulled a wild derailment theory that is particularly noteworthy as to how intensely it insults the intelligence and competence of the engineer.  It is almost as if Rangel’s point is more about insulting the engineer than to explain the cause of the wreck.  And he jumped to his insulting conclusion simply based on the appearance of Conductor Bostian in the photo of him.  

Rangel is in the unique business positon of dealing with the dreams of railfans wanting to become engineers, and with the railroaders who populate the business of his customers.  He might be defensive about a perception that he is attempting to make real railroaders out of foamers.  Is his anti foamer vendetta an indication that he desperately wants to make it clear to railroaders where he stands in order to win their favor?  It sure sounds like it to me.    

[BaltACD]

Sounds like the foamer's foamer to me - wandering outside the bounds of reality.

What is the saying - 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!'

[Electroliner 1935]

As a railfan who doesn't believe he's a "FOAMER", I have been on many rail excursions and seen individuals that do things that make me cringe so I can appreciate those who exprerience it might have revulsion at some. But to tar all because of a few is wrong. Rangel is off base though in classifying Bostian as a foamer, he was a man who liked trains, enjoyed his job, had a clean record (until proved otherwise) and does not deserve a rush to judgement. While we speculate what might have caused the accident, lets remember "Judge not lest ye be judged". 

[jeffhergert]

I didn't even know the engineer was a railfan until this brewed up.

Anyone notice over on the Model Railroader forum the similar discussion about an advertisement for a collectable rifle in the pages of MR?  A few are offended by it and are calling for it's removal.  I believe it's also advertised in the current Trains issue, too.

Jeff

[schlimm]

Electroliner 1935

"Judge not lest ye be judged".

Often misquoted and out of context.  Read the passage:

MATTHEW 7:1-5:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye."

[BaltACD]

jeffhergert

I didn't even know the engineer was a railfan until this brewed up.

Anyone notice over on the Model Railroader forum the similar discussion about an advertisement for a collectable rifle in the pages of MR?  A few are offended by it and are calling for it's removal.  I believe it's also advertised in the current Trains issue, too.

Jeff

Is it being sold with a Confederate battle flag?

[wanswheel]

Excerpt from The Pioneers by James Fenimore Cooper (1823)

 

Excerpt from Letters and Telegrams by Abraham Lincoln

[schlimm]

As I said, misquoted and missing the contextual meaning.

[CMStPnP]

Euclid

From various personal accounts, I gather that there is a fair amount of disdain for railfans among the railroader community.  This is evidenced in the well-known advice to never let a prospective railroad employer know you are a railfan when seeking a job.

I would say that is correct and I can see why it is.    Because around railroad property they are deemed as overly distracted by operations and present themselves as a walking safety risk........pretty sure that is the whole reason behind the "foamer" comment as well comparing an animal inflicted with rabies and it's irrational behavior due to the affliction.

I actually think it is humorous myself.    And in some cases the analogy is spot on even though it is an over generalization in most cases.

[Semper Vaporo]

It is interesting that it is socially acceptable for a "sports fan" to paint their bare chest with the team icon, dye their hair in the team colors, and jump up and down screaming when watching their team participate in a sports contest, and it is also almost expected that these same people will RIOT and destroy property when their team wins (or loses) especially if they are the visiting team in another city.  Yet, if a "Rail Fan" wears a replica Engineer's hat or has a pin sporting a railroad logo on a simple cap, they are labeled "Foamers" and are looked upon with distain.

I say that the "Sport" of watching trains is a more interesting sport than say, basketball or football, because the "Railroad spectator" does not need a bevy of bodacious half-necked "Broads" leaping around in front of them to peak their interest in the purported reason for the "fan" being there in the first place.

And a "Rail Fan" will stay trackside as long as possible before they have to go home (or maybe longer if they are a diehard, risking being late getting home), but a Baseball fan will get bored with a slow game and go home early thinking that nothing worth seeing will happen in the last 2 innings if it hasn't been happening already, so why stick around.

Everybody has a "sport" that they enjoy and "Railroads" is just a valid of a "spectator sport" as watching Chess, Checkers or Ping-Pong matches, or any of the professional, college, High school, grade school, nursery school or amateur "ball" games.