I did not know that Manny Maroun who owns the Ambassador Bridge also owns the MC station! No Idea! I drove across the bridge and asked the American customs guy about that after we concluded the formalities and he kind of went into a rant after I asked him if it was true that one guy owns that bridge. (I still have a hard time grasping that fact) He went on about how the building that he works out of is falling down, there's no hot water and Manny gets over 1 million bucks a year from the Federal government for the use of the building. This makes me think that regarding the station, it's all going to be a big hand job that pays Manny big time with nothing really being improved. I'll believe it when I see it.
The best part of the agreement between the city and Mr. Maroun is the City can use his non-compliance with the recent agreement as an excuse to sieze the building from him using eminent domain.
Really, I think Detroits lack of money and somewhat lack of interest has prevented them from doing so to date. However, Detroit can use eminent domain to take back what it deems as vital public infrastructure from a private company if it is just letting it rot. It can also fine the property repeatedly for not being maintained, place a lien on it and take it over that way.
Detroit has so far played nice with Mr. Maroun but the city has tools in it's tool chest to get what it wants from him. The fact that the Mayor of Detroit has his eye on that building should be a concern to Mr. Maroun and if he was trully smart he would sell the building now while Detroit is pre-occupied with bankruptcy matters.
Will be interesting to see how this pans out.
You are correct in calling it Michigan Central Station because it is a station not a terminal. At least it was when it was built. The New York Central ran through from New York to Buffalo to Detroit across Canada and on to Chicago, which was a very direct route. The station has not functioned as such since AMTRAK because no through routing exists. In this sense it has become a Michigan Central Terminal. The Detroit Chicago train used to originate at the terminal until city fathers saw fit to locate a relatively minor structure near the Grand Circus Park area of Detroit, basically abandoning the use of Michigan Central Station as a rail passenger facility.
Detroit being an automotive city has not held rail transport of much esteem and consequently there is not effective public rail transportation. General Motors bought up the city street car lines and scraped them in the 1950's. There exists a substancial rail plant however for industrial use. Tracks radiate from the city in all directions. Grand Trunk north east, Conrail north, Grand Trunk north west, Conrail west, CSX south west, and Norfolk Southern south. Two belt rail structures exist around the city at about the Outer Drive location. Much of the outer rail belt that circled the city has been pulled up for rails to trails and other purposes that could have built a substancial urban passenger rail network.
The city population remains mostly ignorant about the existing rail plant owing to gross neglect of the subject by local media. When discussions of starting a rail network begin the topic usually centers around starting a complete rail system from scratch. Taking land for eminent domain, pulling down existing structures and duplicating the existing rail system. Cost projections are astronomical with such fool ideas as rebuilding the freeway system with monorail trains down the center. Meanwhile, the existing rail plant is totally ignored.
Michigan Central Station would make a fine center for this urban rail network hub and interface with AMTRAK long haul rail systems but Mr. Maroun and others are lost to the usage. One thing the station is good for is the new major industry of Detroit. Scraping old buildings and the theft of anything stealable. No abandoned building exists for long without the entire copper electrical system being removed - any bronze or other metals do not last long then the bricks go.
Large chain link fences with barb wire protected Michigan Central Station but they were stolen along with the marble walls, all the copper windows all the plumbing all the wiring all the doors even the steel iron chimney disapeared off the building last year. Mr. Maroun rebuilt and wired up a couple of floors of the station a few years ago along with replacing the windows. The Detroit police force has been unable to stem the tide of theft. The state legislature passed laws to restrict scrapping but it does not seem to have helped.
The local Detroit Public Schools have been basically put out of business by issue of vouchers to residents to allow those students to travel to the suburbs for education. The public schools were scrapped within weeks.
Talk is to put Detroit under the plow for agriculture. If so it will be the only farm areas with gas mains, sewers and public service under the fields. Residents can purchase any ajoining property to existing residences for $1 in an effort to manage the land.
Over half the city residents are refusing to pay for water and the city has offered amnisty, and payment plans to begin to deal with this. Efforts are on to cut off water to half the residents for non payment. Discussion among citizens is that water is a "right" and should not have to be paid for.
Michigan Central Station looms over the city with memories of its mighty past as the New York Central rail hub for this major city of industrial America.
Doc
Sounds like a lot of people in Detroit are out of touch with reality just as they are in Greece.
What amazes me is how much money there is for tickets to Detroit Tigers baseball games (and has been through all the city's travails). Check out those attendance figures in the box scores.
1. Russia is bailing out Greece economically by paying decent prices for Greek oil and other deals. This will give Russia a stratigic location on the Meditaranian.
2. Detroit Street Railways was the very first municipal transit system in the USA, even earlier than SF's MUNI. DSR scrapped its efficient, at the end all PCC, trunk-line streetcar system and its lighter-line trolleybus system, a very efficient system, but while it may have been GM pressure that did it (and yes, Ford Transit buses were also replaced by GM buses), it was not because GM or National City (GM-Texaco-Firestone) actually owned the system,
3. I do read of some revival in Detroit and apparently to some extent the school system now has oversight from the State or the Feds and has some turnaround. Be interested to see if the Woodward Avenue streetcar restoration actually is completed and goes operational
4. The last rail commuter operation was the Grand Trunk's to Durand. For a while the state subsidized it and equipped it with second-hand lightweight cars, last used on a fantrip. Now the bus system is state-owned, and they own a bunch of bilevel railcars intended for an Ann Arbor - Detroit commuter line that has not gotten off the ground.
Dave you are pretty darn close.
It's a very tough area around the station although the inner city revival has begun to appear. The area lost a lot when the Tigers left Tiger Stadium.
The corruption that was in the school system will take a while to get rid of. With Swimming pools, decks, SUV's, home remodeling, cloths, etc. "Conferences" in the Carribbean, Mexico, etc. It's what the Mayor was doing so why not!!!
In DETROIT we build cars!!! Who needs those silly TROLLIES anyway.
The SEMTA commuter trains only ran Pontiac to Detroit, too bad they didn't go to Durand, they might have picked up enough riders in Durand, Fenton, Holly, Clarkston etc. to pay the bills.
The Woodward Ave. street car project has a large block of private funding I believe Mr. Penske and Mr. Gilbert (Quicken Loans) are two of the backers as I recall. Was on Woodward recently and they have made a lot of progress including rail in the roadway!
I recall riding the SEMTA cars when the Metro-North ran them on the Hudson river line. They were in fine shape, not a bit of graffiti and they rode like a dream. I wonder what happened to them?
Detroit, bankrupt but they plan to build yet another arena to replace the Joe Louis. Streetlights are disconnected but at least they have thier priorities right, don't they?
54light15I recall riding the SEMTA cars when the Metro-North ran them on the Hudson river line. They were in fine shape, not a bit of graffiti and they rode like a dream. I wonder what happened to them?
Ran off to join the circus. All 10 of them, I believe. (If you mean the ex-UP 4800s)
Ringling Brothers, I suppose. The Metro-North didn't have them that long as I recall. I guess the ex-UP cars, I recall that they were tan in colour with red? trim.
CMStPnPReally, I think Detroits lack of money and somewhat lack of interest has prevented them from doing so to date. However, Detroit can use eminent domain to take back what it deems as vital public infrastructure from a private company if it is just letting it rot. It can also fine the property repeatedly for not being maintained, place a lien on it and take it over that way.
Hi All
Another city with an MCR Station which was deteriorating badly went at it this way.
St Thomas, Ontario (former MCR Canada Division HQ) has a fine brick Italianate style station/divisional office building. Although nowhere near as imposing as the MCR Detroit station it is a fine building in its own right.
A community group ( The North American Railway Hall of Fame) has taken over the building, in cooperation with the City of St Thomas and has done a fine job of restoring it to its former condition over the last ten years. I saw the building in its early and later stages of restoration. They raised private funding and received provincial job training funding to employ 3-4 people in a job skills retraining programme. I remember seeing them working inside the station carefully restoring woodwork and other building fittings. Individuals, organizations and businesses in St Thomas and farther afield sponsored windows, doors and all manner of pieces of the building restoration project. They did so for the wooden roof cornices and other exterior fittings. You could even sponsor a brick or section of exterior wall for restoration I believe. They've raised a lot of money for restoration and ongoing operation in a variety of ingenious ways. I believe its financially self sustaining now.
The station has become a community centre. People get married there in the restored station dining room. Community events which are (and aren't) railway themed occur there. The upstairs offices (of the Division Superintendent, Chief Dispatcher etc) have been restored and are leased out to local businesses and professionals. It even has a Provincial Heritage Designation now as a restored building.
The group has a practical, achievable and sustainable business plan and have accomplished much. The MCR station is becoming a focus of community pride and activity in a city hard hit by economic downturns over the years after the railways left. Sure it's not Detroit nor is it as large as the MCR Detroit Station and office building, but it does show on a smaller scale, what can be done.
Check them out (Google) North American Railway Hall of Fame. Lots of interesting info.
Another Community group, the Elgin County Railway Museum, now owns the MCR shops (just to the east of the station) and runs its programmes in that location.
Just thought I'd share that story with you all.
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
daveklepper 2. Detroit Street Railways was the very first municipal transit system in the USA, even earlier than SF's MUNI. DSR scrapped its efficient, at the end all PCC, trunk-line streetcar system and its lighter-line trolleybus system, a very efficient system, but while it may have been GM pressure that did it (and yes, Ford Transit buses were also replaced by GM buses), it was not because GM or National City (GM-Texaco-Firestone) actually owned the system,
Oh come on now don't destroy the wonderful totally debunked GM/NCL conpericy with facts that Dr D has not chosen to embrace.
The Detroit MC Station is no longer on a thru route. The Canada Southern has been torn up, so there is no longer a short-cut to Buffalo. Amtrak has rerouted north around downtown. The present Detroit station is 3 miles north of downtown, and will be connected to the center city by the new light rail line. Amtrak extended the Wolverine service over the above mentioned former GT commuter line to Pontiac. The MC station itself is not located downtown, and it's hard to imagine that the station will ever be used again for passenger rail.
MidlandMike is right. The station in its heyday was located a long way from downtown to allow for a reasonable grade to the Detroit River Tunnels. Now its just a long way from anywhere. Its state of deterioration suggests that demolition is starting to look reasonable.
The St. Thomas station is nice. Trouble is, there's no tracks. The "museum"looks to be a bunch of rusty train junk in a field. St Thomas has sure seen better days. It was crummy even before the Ford Crown Vic plant shut down.
54light15The St. Thomas station is nice. Trouble is, there's no tracks. The "museum"looks to be a bunch of rusty train junk in a field. St Thomas has sure seen better days. It was crummy even before the Ford Crown Vic plant shut down.
Hi
I thought the tracks were still in place from MCR Shops to BX Tower, passing in front of the station. Or at least the station to BX. I wonder when that changed. The ECRM outside doesn't look like much. Like so many organizations, limited finances and people power. They've got the old Pt Stanley incline RR cars outside and a few boxcars also I think. No idea what they intend to do with them. The inside of the shops is different. They've got quite a collection and work diligently at its restoration. Mostly retired railway guys work on the Museum collection and they are getting older.
My mother's family is from St Thomas. Many of them worked for the railways. My cousins and I often comment on the economic beating the city has taken since the railways and the various manufacturing industries (like Timken and Ford) came and left. It is sad to see. All of us moved away. Employment opportunities were limited.
The city struggles for sure , but to their credit they try to build it up and capitalize on their railway history. These straitened circumstances seem to be a fact of life for a lot of smaller SW Ontario manufacturing centres.
The Detroit River railroad tunnels are still place with freight traffic through and past the station. The railroad still exists in Windsor, Canada with VIA rail service to Toronto, Canada so Michigan Central Station is still connected by rail through Canada.
The US Government Homeland Security has set up a barb wire enclosure near the tunnel entrance. Approach the tunnel entrance which is posted "no tresspass" turns on speakers which announce "step away from the tunnel entrance!" With asorted sirens and lights. The land over the tunnel is being taken by what appears to be Homeland Security with barb wire fence enclosue of existing buildings back towards the river.
The new Detroit AMTRACK station is located in what is called "The New Center" area near the old General Motors World Headquarters and the Fisher Theater slightly up-town. The trouble is GM moved out of the "New Center Area" and went back downtown to the Renaissance Center - so there is NO business at the AMTRACK station - Go Figure! The current AMTRACK station serves few!
The Grand Trunk tracks that went to the Renaissance Center have been pulled up to form a "rails to trails" project - brilliant Detroit idea! The new AMTRACK station at the "New Center Area" is located at the former Grand Trunk "Milwaukee Junction" yard which formed the inner belt line railroad around downtown Detroit.
This "Milwaukee Junction" yard has been turned into a Detroit city dump with trash incinerator with the outrageous smell of garbage pervading the area - absolutely unlivable in summer. City dump in the downtown city - where do they come up with this crazy crazy stuff? Good city planning - Google Detroit Incinerator for lawsuits and public outrage - Go Figure!
Presently the AMTRACK train comes from Pontiac, MI, northwest down the Grand Trunk main to "Milwaukee Junction" then traverses past the dump over the rail belt to the Michigan Central main line just west of Michigan Central Station and then heads out of town to Dearborn, MI on its way to Chicago.
This belt line railroad which as I said ran from Renaissance Center downtown to "Milwaukee Junction" and over to the Michigan Central Station formed a complete rail loop of the inner city. As I said, this loop through "Milwaukee Junction" USED to go downtown to the Renaissance Center forming an inner city belt railroad - aliebet with the now "rail to trails" section forming "NO RAIL TRANSPORT" to the business district.
Farther out, mile or so, another belt line exists running from the Edison coal power station near the Water Works over to the Detroit City Airport and on around the city. An even farther out belt line existed from Mt. Clemens to Romeo, MI, to Rochester Hills, to Pontiac to Plymouth, Mi - most of this is pulled up for "rails to trails."
Tracks radiate outward through these two or three belt loops in the following fashion. Grand Trunk up Gratiot Avenue to Port Huron Mi, the old Michigan Central line north up VanDyke Ave to Bay City Michigan. The Grand Trunk AMTRACK line northwest to Pontiac. The Michigan Central - Detroit River tunnel line west from Canada to Michigan Central Station to Dearborm, Mi and Chicago - this is the 100 mph high speed corridor AMTRACK keeps promising to run to Chicago. Then there remains the CSX line ex Wabash southwest to Plymouth, MI and next going south is the old Pennsylvania RR - Detroit Toledo Ironton line, now Norfolk Southern due south to Toledo, Ohio - this was an another AMTRACK route in the past.
Many of these tracks had famous name trains. Pennsylvania Railroad ran to New York with the "Red Arrow." Wabash ran the CSX with the "Wabash Cannon Ball" to St. Louis, MO also the C&O Cincinnantian. The Michigan Central ran the NYC "Mercury" to Chicago, ILL, also the Cleveland Mercury, Cincinnati Mercury and James Whitomb Riley. Grand Trunk ran the "Mohawk" to Chicago by way of Durand and Lansing MI to name a few.
For those unfamiliar with Detroit, the current AMTRACK station near the "New Center Area" is a disgrace. A building about the size of a Mc Donald restaurant with few parking facilities and no security. Michigan Central Station on the other hand is a grand building edifice suitable for a city the size of Detroit.
The AMTRACK train from Pontiac to Detroit is a useless political run. You can drive anywhere in the city to Dearborn Michigan and get better train service. The AMTRACK takes so long to make the transit from Pontiac to Detroit to Dearborn that the three hour train ride is useless. The trip in a car is 30 to 40 minutes. The parking in Pontiac has questionable security and the Detroit parking has non existant security. The Dearborn, MI station is a brand new with secure parking - it also features a steam locomotive from the Henry Ford Museum in the lobby. For all practical purposes this is the AMTRACK station that Michgan Central Station should be if it were not caught up in Detroit politics.
The only people who would destroy Michigan Central Station are the same dishonist politicians who would be paid to bring it down, scrap the steel, then get paid to put up some other government project on the site. Imagine if you would scrapping Grand Central Station in New York, or the rebuilt Union DC station in Washington DC, or Chicago Union Station or St Louis Union Station a national historic landmark, or Union Station in Los Angeles, California.
Never in the history of mankind has there been such wanton loss of fine building and construction as has been seen wasted in Detroit, Michigan!
The same thing happened to the Detroit Ball Park - land hallowed by Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Willie Horton, Sparky Anderson, Hank Greenburg and Mark Fidrych destroyed like so many other landmarks. Destroyed so that another Detroit neigborhood could be condemed and the sight of the old ball park left vacant. One neigborhood pulled down and one ball park pulled down so in the end we get a ball park - Go figure!
Thats right boys and girls its Detroit politics fraught with greed, mismanagment and racism on a scale beyond comprehension. The city is located within nine miles of the US border which according to the Patriot Act allows complete Federal Government tapping of phones and everyones computor systems. And Oh yah I love the barb wire fencing up and down the Detroit River. Makes the Berlin Wall feel right at home - we just need some Stasi police.
Gee Doc,
You weren't doing too bad until you got into Detroit politics.
I live not too far from Detroit, and other than a few discrepancies, most of your report was reasonable. BTW, Detroit is on the border, not nine miles from it.
Norm
Seriously, Norm, how do you talk about modern U.S. cities that have gone down the tubes without getting into politics?
In most of these failures, the so-called victims have been put in charge and quickly corrupted, with the results we have seen. They are like nothing so much as our Indian reservations, where elected officials are either corrupt to begin with or quickly made that way.
In both cases, you can blame "the history of prejudice" -- or the federal spoils, dollars, that have tempted these officials into "public service" in the first place.
Dr D The Detroit River railroad tunnels are still place with freight traffic through and past the station. The railroad still exists in Windsor, Canada with VIA rail service to Toronto, Canada so Michigan Central Station is still connected by rail through Canada. ...
...
In the context of this thread, we are talking of passenger trains. There has not been a passenger train thru the Detroit Tunnels in 40 years. As I said the direct Buffalo line has been ripped-up. Yes Via goes from Windsor to Toronto, but Amtrak has not sent a train from the mid-west to Toronto (via Port Huron) in about 20 years. If you wanted to go from Detroit to Buffalo, it would be just as quick to go south to Toledo and then along the Lakeshore route, so as to avoid the 2 lengthy border crossing stops.
Unlike Grand Central Terminal, which is located in the midtown NY business district, the Detroit MC station serves no practical rail passenger purpose.
Midland Mike,
Why would AMTRAK which is a function of the United States Government find it part of its federal jurisdiction to travel or service through Canada which is a foreign country?
This is an interesting question because AMTRAK routes are often supported by state legislatures to keep them functioning such as the former Santa Fe Ration Pass route of AMTRAK Southwestern Chief.
I have personally traveled from Windsor to Niagara Falls by VIA rail upon which occasion I then picked up an AMTRAK train route from Toronto to New York. I had to do a customs crossing on AMTRAK.
Before AMTRAK the Canadian National ran a passenger train from Toronto to Chicago on the Grand Trunk Western called the INTERNATIONAL LIMITED. This train ran AMTRAK in the states and VIA rail in Canada. The AMTRAK train MAPLE LEAF runs in Canada from New York to Toronto. So why do they do things differently with the, MAPLE LEAF and the INTERNATIONAL LIMITED? - Go Figure!
As I said VIA runs Windsor/ Detroit to Niagara Falls, just no Detroit river crossing!
There has always been a sense of loss concerning the New York to Detroit to Chicago routing since New York Central abandoned its passenger transportation on subsidiary Toronto Hamilton and Buffalo. The Detroit/ Windsor crossing was just taken for granted as the cities are sister cities. New York Central business was the driving force in the crossing of the NYC CANADIAN NIAGARA from Chicago to Niagara Falls at Detroit and also the NYC CANADIAN from Chicago to Toronto at Detroit. With New York Central gone and without railroad interest in a Detroit river crossing the issue died and AMTRAK came along very late with a very unclear territory of operation. Canadian public interest remained strong for CN to connect to Chicago and to New York. I believe this is because Canada has much more interest in the United States than the United States has had in going to Canada.
New York Central let the Detroit tunnel crossing go, and public service seemed the last concern of anyone.
Canadian National Railroad in the 1980s chose to support the building of a high capacity improved rail tunnel - The St. Clair Tunnel - into the United States to move excess height freight cars Toronto to Chicago. Permission from the US Government under Ronald Reagan was given for the tunnel to be built at the Port Huron/ Sarnia CN crossing site. "Hue and cry" was raised by the City of Detroit, led by Mayor Colman Young, that the Reagan and Bush Administration was ignoring the future growth needs of Detroit.
Because Detroit had always kept control of the economic advantage at the Detroit River. The political situation in Detroit crumbled and it continued to when Mayor Kwuame Kilpatrick was in office and it was found that an effort was afoot to sell the Detroit Automoblie tunnel to Canada. This was stopped with the criminal accusation that the City of Detroit was selling everything it could get a price tag on owing to corruption of city government. Mayor Kilpatrick and others went to prison. The 1904 Detroit Railroad Tunnel was sold to Canadian Pacific who has since sold it again. The Ambassador Bridge was sold to local billionare "Matty" Moroun owner of Michigan Central Station whose ownership has led to much legal fighting. Because of this obstinate behavior he was arrested and spent several days in jail for contempt of court for refusal to provide improved public access ramps to the bridge.
Even though Detroit was once a major rail manufacturing center, since World War II there has had little or no public support or interest nor any effort to establish rail transport as a major means of public transportation. The 1970's the "Detroit People Mover" was created as an "elevated public way" a one mile train loop around the inner city. Concieved as a rubber tire concrete roadbed "elevated train," the rubber tired train could not be made to work and was converted to a steel rail. Oddly General Motors world headquarters at the Renaissance Center is serviced by the People Mover and is on site of the former Brush Street Station of Grand Trunk Western. An extensive four track main line rail transportation link was pulled up for a "rails to trails" project thereby cutting off the downtown from its major historic rail link and the potential for the Renaissance Center from becoming the passenger rail hub the Michgan Central Station was created to be.
Recent public recognition that there is no effective public rail transportation has spurred a rash of "we need street railway" talk. Discussion of building transit down the expressways has melted into a "lets put a street car line up Woodward Ave." There are however few businesses to serve on Woodward Ave. Considering the extensive railway plant that is needed and that already exists in Detroit the real rail transport issues are still seriously overlooked. A huge freight "right of way" remains that once moved passengers, and that could now function as a substancial urban commuter system with little mindful effort.
Dearborn has seen fit to give Detroit a decent station just across from the whistling tracks of steam railroading at Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village. A station with a historic steam locomotive in the lobby and a little glimpse of the glory that was once "The Motor City Capitol of the World!"
Indeed the age of Detroit "needing major rail routes" has passed, and the nature of Detroit politics has prejudiced any real interest in serious rail passenger travel as a city once "advocating the automotive way of life" and purposefully stripped of most of its rail passenger transport.
Bob, thanks for the update on Woodward. I first visited Detroit early in 1942 at the age of 10, arriving with parents at the Michigan Central Station after an all-day reclining seat coach trip on the then new Empire State Express. For years afterward, I explored the Detroit streetcar system, when not only the trunk lines like Woodward and Michigan-Gratiot and Fort-Kerchival were running, but even such lines as Fourteenth and Trumble. I thought that when they bought the terrific post-war PCC's that they were committed to keeping streetcars, but was wrong.
Tracks in the street. My last streetcar ride in the USA was in a Philadelphia PCC, before that as an operator at Branford. When I moved to Jerusalem, I never expected to see tracks in the street again. Then in 2000, along with the first low-floor buses, we got signs promising light rail. But it dragged on and it was not until about eight years later that we actually saw rail installed. The first wire when up around 2010, and I said a Shehehiyanu prayers (Thank the Eternal for bring us to this time!). Then came the first middle-of-the-night test operation, then with me at a sidewalk caffe downtown, the first test run downtown passed by, then came shadow operation. The day before the first free public operation cars, were run for VIPs only. and I couldn't pass as a VIP. But at the very station near my apartment, the train arrival signs were working, announcing arrivals as if there were regular service, and there were no signs saying this was only a test. Soon enough, a two-car Alstom C-302 train came (after initial test I've seen only two-car operation, not once a single car), the doors opened and I entered. A security guard came and told me to get off. I told him I felt I had every right to ride, that there were no signs saying I couild not ride, that I had waited for the train, and that I would not get off untless they at least took me to the next stop. Another guard came, but did not get physical (and this was all in Hebrew) and simply threatened to call the Police. I replied that the Police could order me to exit the train but they could not. And a local policeman whom I knew did arrive, and said effectively, "Dave, tommorrow you can ride as much as you want but please leave the train now." So since that day I have always had a Senior Citzen monthly pass and do ride whenever I want to.
Now why did I not follow the Citipass security guard's request and had them call the police? (1) My involvement with light rail, inluding actual work for pay, is far, far longer than their inviolvement. (2) Citipass is primarily a French-British-owned concern, and I am a USA and Israeli citizen. A British-French corporation ordering me to do something I consder unreasonable is abhorent to me.
But I alway do anything a policeman asks me to do, even if on face it seems unnecessary, because they are responsible for my security, and in a tight situation, my life might depend on it.
Enjoy the tracks in the street. Hope you see the wire and the test operation, and the opening for the public soon. And I hope the operation on Woodward is as smooth and efficient as the PCC's were, which is as smooth an efficient as our Jerusalelm light rail. My moral jumped 100% on my first ride, the first public day of operation. And I always do give Citipass credit for doing a good job, take care to be polite to all their employees (and they are from all local enthnic groups) and encourage others to ride. Their ridership on a typical weekday is about 115,000, more than expected, more than most USA heavy third-rail rapid transit lines, let alone light rail. Most trips see a seat occupied by two people on an end-to-end journey, since places of employment, retail, culture, and education are also near end-points and not just downtown. And of course, I am always careful to validate my pass for the trip in the machine immediately upon boarding.
MidlandMike The Detroit MC Station is no longer on a thru route. The Canada Southern has been torn up, so there is no longer a short-cut to Buffalo. Amtrak has rerouted north around downtown. The present Detroit station is 3 miles north of downtown, and will be connected to the center city by the new light rail line. Amtrak extended the Wolverine service over the above mentioned former GT commuter line to Pontiac. The MC station itself is not located downtown, and it's hard to imagine that the station will ever be used again for passenger rail.
How much of a shortcut to Buffalo in as far as miles are concerned? Track is still in place to Niagra Falls, Ontario from Toronto and seems to be in reasonable enough shape for GO Transit to send a train there. At some point I imagine that the CN or CP tracks from Windsor to Toronto junction with those tracks. There is service across the border at Niagra Falls with a working railroad bridge connecting Niagra Falls, Ont to Niagra Falls, NY. Niagra Falls, NY has a rail connection into the rest of the upstate NY rail system. So even though the Canada Southern might be torn up.......seems to me the rails are still in place for a rail trip from Detroit to Buffalo.
CSSHEGEWISCH MidlandMike is right. The station in its heyday was located a long way from downtown to allow for a reasonable grade to the Detroit River Tunnels. Now its just a long way from anywhere. Its state of deterioration suggests that demolition is starting to look reasonable.
This is true but then again it had a direct streetcar connection to downtown Detroit. And the structure of the building is still sound and the building can still be renovated and thats one reason why the Mouron family has hung onto it. Although there are hundreds of other building candidates in Downtown Detroit and nearby that can be renovated a lot cheaper and produce a higher return for the dollar spent with renovation. Detroit commerical real estate has to recover very substantially before this building would ever be considered for renovation by a private source, IMO. It is not outside the reach of a local public or state source to buy the building and renovate it.
Ok I guess I need to chime in here with a little geography. Detroit is the one place that is NORTH of Canada. Seems odd but owing to the curve in the Detroit River which flows EAST to WEST at its head water then turns SOUTH at Detroit to go to Lake Erie. Check a Google map for the layout.
The Windsor, Canada VIA train station therefore is SOUTH of Detroit and the tracks run along the west flowing Detroit River to travel to Niagara Falls, or Toronto, Canada. Thats right the "Florida of Canada" is located along the Detroit River south of the United States.
The Michigan Central Station is located south of the bend in the Detroit River so that the 1904 Detroit River Tunnel crossing is EAST to WEST and the Canadian train station along the Detroit River runs parallel to the north part of the river in an easterly direction along the southern coast of Lake St. Clair to go EAST to Niagara Falls.
Yes a VIA passenger train already runs from Windsor, Canada to Niagara Falls. The connection that is missing is an American railroad company interested in going from Chicago across the Detroit River - it's AMTRAK that dropped the ball because New York Central/ Penn Central disolved as a company before AMTRAK could figure out how trains ran through Detroit.
Canada hardly has enough interest in Windsor, Canada to want to go from there to Chicago. Detroit is the major city US city that is lost to the rest of the nation.
Since we are discussing odd facts about Detroit - it was built by the French and was a battlefield in two wars. The Revolutionary War and The War of 1812. It is the only city its size that straddles a US border with a sister city in a foreign country.
Michigan Central Station was uniquely located and built to be an international point of crossing and expedite rail travel from New York to Chicago quicker than any other route. It also served the City of Detroit well and is unlike any other place.
MICHIGAN CENTRAL STATION AND THE 1904 TUNNEL ARE PART OF A HUGE RAIL NETWORK WITH TRACK ADVANTAGES FOR THE CITY AND THE NATION STILL IN PLACE!
Dr D Since we are discussing odd facts about Detroit - it was built by the French and was a battlefield in two wars. The Revolutionary War and The War of 1812. It is the only city its size that straddles a US border with a sister city in a foreign country.
That statement was true 50 years ago, but San Diego has caught up with Detroit in population.
CMStPnP MidlandMike The Detroit MC Station is no longer on a thru route. The Canada Southern has been torn up, so there is no longer a short-cut to Buffalo. Amtrak has rerouted north around downtown. The present Detroit station is 3 miles north of downtown, and will be connected to the center city by the new light rail line. Amtrak extended the Wolverine service over the above mentioned former GT commuter line to Pontiac. The MC station itself is not located downtown, and it's hard to imagine that the station will ever be used again for passenger rail. How much of a shortcut to Buffalo in as far as miles are concerned? Track is still in place to Niagra Falls, Ontario from Toronto and seems to be in reasonable enough shape for GO Transit to send a train there. At some point I imagine that the CN or CP tracks from Windsor to Toronto junction with those tracks. There is service across the border at Niagra Falls with a working railroad bridge connecting Niagra Falls, Ont to Niagra Falls, NY. Niagra Falls, NY has a rail connection into the rest of the upstate NY rail system. So even though the Canada Southern might be torn up.......seems to me the rails are still in place for a rail trip from Detroit to Buffalo.
Looking at my 1966 Official Guide: Buffalo-Windsor by CaSo =249 miles; Buffalo-Windsor by TH&B and CN connecting in the Hamilton area =265. So the difference is only 16 miles. On the other hand Buffalo-Detroit via CaSo =252 vs, Buffalo-Toledo-Detroit =349. At almost 100 miles longer going around Toledo, I now don't know if that would be as quick as going thru the 2 customs stops on the shortcut thru Canada.
Dr D, I took the Amtrak/VIA Chicago-Toronto train a couple of times about 1990. I think it was a joint operation because there was significant milage in both countries. They used a train from each system on alternate days. I remember at least one of the trips was on VIA equipment. Since the route was less than 750 miles, any subsidies would have to be picked up by the states on the US side, if the train was to be recreated.
If Detroit was serious about rail service, including commuter, they could do something like what Philadelphia did. Phily had the PRR and Reading stub terminals. They connected the 2 stubs by a tunnel, replacing Reading terminal with a modern 4 track thru station, and inbound commuter trains pass under the center city, to become outbound trains. In Detroit they could start tunneling just pass the MC station, tunnel to an undergroung city center station, and then continue to a connection with the old GT Dequindre cut (photos seem to show that there is still room for tracks besides the bike trail) and continue out past Milwaukee Jct. to Pontiac. Of course, such a mega-project is unlikely in Detroit.
Or, as a stopgap,since tunneling is expensive, they could use diesel light-rail vehicles, like those on NJT's River Line and Ottawa's O-line, and possibly Trinity Express at Fort Worth and Dallas, and run on city streets. Michigan Avenue is wide enough. This would be a do-able low-budget project.
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