Since it's been slow on here, maybe this will start some discussion. Or not.
In all my years on the railroad (slightly under 10), new hires have had all sorts of backgrounds. Everywhere from 18 year old teens to guys that were near retirement age. All sorts of backgrounds, and while some were overt railfans, many either weren't - or kept it pretty hidden. I, myself, was somewhat of a railfan, but I've since let that interest fade away. I still have a little interest in the history and industry, but anything current and railfanish (OMG a heritage engine!) is not enough to hold my interest anymore. But still, when I hired out, being a railfan was something I kept mainly to myself. As I got a little seniority and was able to hold a regular job with the same group of people, I didn't' bother hiding it much. But since I proved to be somewhat capable (I guess), it was no big deal. And a bunch of guys that worked at this terminal also were railfans of various levels.
But that was then and this is now. I don't know if it is just a local thing, or a national movement, but it seems every new hire I've come across in the past year is an 18 year old super-railfan. I get it, they think they scored their dream job, but I wonder how many are going to stick around when the realities of this industry come crashing down on them? Or do you think they're more prone to stick around?
I couldn't care less if they are railfans. We all have hobbies and they're all strange. Just wondering if this is happening elsewhere, or is it just a local thing? Is there nobody else wants these jobs? Or do they figure these young guys are in it for the long -haul? Good idea to hire the fandom, or not? Thoughts? Discussion? Comments? Insults? Does anybody even care?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
My two cents.. it's a good idea to hire railfans provided they also meet all other hiring criteria. Hiring someone who has an interest beats hiring someone who just needs a job to pay the bills. BTW there are "fans" in alot of other industries, and some are even quirkier than ours is. Back in 1988 (when I got started in transportation) we had to change out a tire on an old trailer. I called the tire guy, and when he showed up with his tools I couldn't believe his reaction. "Do you have any idea what you've got here??" he shouted.. I looked dumbfounded and answered.. "yeah.. its a tire". He shook his head and said "no.. that's not just a tire..thats a BF6123BZ!!!" I thought he was joking but he could hardly contain his excitement. I remember we all kinda laughed about it later.. how he'd probably prefer the company of a tire over a women. But you know what.. 27 years later that tire guy owns a tire shop in Montreal that did over 20 million in sales last year. All because he had a little bit of interest beyond what the average schlep brings to the job.
Members of that age group are the ones out looking for work, probably because they decided college wasn't for them. The construction world has revolving doors utilized for this particular group of workers. Some work hard and excell, some move on. I wonder if it's the fact that they are railfans that keeps them from turning up their noses once they are made aware what the job will actually entail?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Ulrich My two cents.. it's a good idea to hire railfans provided they also meet all other hiring criteria. Hiring someone who has an interest beats hiring someone who just needs a job to pay the bills. BTW there are "fans" in alot of other industries, and some are even quirkier than ours is. Back in 1988 (when I got started in transportation) we had to change out a tire on an old trailer. I called the tire guy, and when he showed up with his tools I couldn't believe his reaction. "Do you have any idea what you've got here??" he shouted.. I looked dumbfounded and answered.. "yeah.. its a tire". He shook his head and said "no.. that's not just a tire..thats a BF6123BZ!!!" I thought he was joking but he could hardly contain his excitement. I remember we all kinda laughed about it later.. how he'd probably prefer the company of a tire over a women. But you know what.. 27 years later that tire guy owns a tire shop in Montreal that did over 20 million in sales last year. All because he had a little bit of interest beyond what the average schlep brings to the job.
Like that software foamer up in Washington state.. Bill Gates I think his name is.
Zug,
It's a yes and no situation. I know of one railfan who hired on with a short line and loves the job even though in his first Winter he spent time walking in deep snow to change broken knuckles. He's still there five years later.
A lot of the young can't see beyond the glamor and are going to wash out in short order when faced with hard dirty work outdoors in miserable weather.
I guess the caveat "Ya pays your money and ya takes your chances" applies in hiring anyone. If they are a fan and can see beyond the glitz, they stand a chance.
Norm
As a railfan in the late 60's, I hired out on the CB&Q. The job was a 'fireman' and I was able to bid into a pool position on a mainline run(1st in/1st out). I learned real fast the I had no social life as I was now 'married' to the phone, waiting for my next 'call'. I lost 3 girl friends in my 19 month career and I got drafted - end of railroad career. After returning from Vietnam/Army, I went back to school.
I found that I liked to watch/read about trains much better...
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
It's been said here before that the second best day of one's life is when they hire on to the railroad. The best day is the day they leave.
I know some railroaders who are fans as well. On our line, it's actually quite common, but we aren't in the same boat as the folks whose lives are dictated by the whims of the railroad.
Aircraft fans are probably in the same class as railfans - unfortunately their activities have come under scrutiny for security reasons...
And we have fire buffs, and firefighters who are fire buffs.
The trucking industry has it's share of enthusiasts, (as do cars) - and many are just as rabid as any foamer. Plus - the owner/operators get to doll up their rigs any way they want!
And that's just transportation. Recall that Carl's travels usually include a stop at any available quilt shops for Pat's benefit.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I don't really know the answer, but it seems to me someone with fantastic/sentimental notions could have them dashed rather more easily...and early...than someone who had no real expectations other than being able to pay bills and keep a family. It does depend on one's history, experience, self-discipline, personality, and yes...character. A genuine dislike for people nearby, those with whom one must interact daily, or with other characteristics of the work or its compensation, will soon kill any hankering to stay.
I was an 18 year-old super railfan when I hired on 3 years ago, now I am a 21 year-old super railfan. I don't think whether you're a foamer or not has anything to do with whether or not you will be good at the job; everyone has something they are passionate about, the only question should be can they look past that to understand and pay attention to their immediate surroundings and job. But I am surprised that you are running into such a high percentage of new hire foamers Zug, since in my experience the railroad (CN at least) prefers to stay away from them, I suspect out of fear they will get too distracted to pay attention to work, and they are usually all too happy to mention their passion in the job interview. I disagree with this, but I guess that's why I'm not in HR.
For my personal experience, while being a railfan is what caused me to look into hiring on in the running trades, the more I learned about the job before and after starting is what made me serious about as a career and is what has kept me here 3 years in. The excellent pay and benefits and steady work with minimal threat of layoffs (I also have BRCF just in case of suspension/firing) in the oilfield-dominated economy of Western Canada make this a good fit for me. I can also deal with the long irregular trips since in exchange for that I wind up spending far more time around home than I do at work. I would note however that when I hired on I deliberately left out my rabid interest in all things railroad, but I DID mention that I was a volunteer at my local Railway Museum and already had a bit of experience with actual moving equipment, which I believe scored points in my favour.
On the other hand, I know of several foamers who have been fired or are in the process of being fired from CN, but this has nothing to do with their railfan intrests, it is because they don't have good heads on their shoulders and don't get just how much harm they can do (and have done) with moving equipment. There are many others with the same lacksidasy attitude who have no interest in trains whatsoever, and still meet the same bitter end to their career.
For a final answer to your question, I believe that someone's postion on the foamer scale is not relevent when deciding whether or not to hire them, they should be judged on their intelligence, spatial awarness, grace under pressure and all the other things which are actually relevant to this job.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Still though, an above average interest is generally an advantage, not an impediment to success. Sure, young people may have a naive and overly optimistic viewpoint, but I much prefer that to the "life sucks" mentality that so often permeates older generations. Personally I'd rather hire a naive 20 year old who isn't jaded over someone experienced who is run down and pessimistic.
Sure, people starting out are generally naive, but they seem to be much less so today than when I was their age back in the 70s. When I sent my resume out to railroads in 1979 I fully expected that I'd be choosing among offers within weeks. That an American railroad wouldn't hire a 17 year old Canadian with no experience never even crossed my mind... why wouldn't Missouri Pacific or Conrail hire me? But to their credit, each and every one of them responded to me even when, in retrospect, doing so was a complete waste of their time.
As we all know, the world is becoming ever more competitive... having that special interest might just be the edge you need to go from just getting by to earning outstanding pay doing something you enjoy doing.
Ulrich As we all know, the world is becoming ever more competitive... having that special interest might just be the edge you need to go from just getting by to earning outstanding pay doing something you enjoy doing.
They'll mostly become pretty jaded pretty quick. Hard not to in this line of work.
One has to decide not to. We only get one life (as far as I know anyway)..
I only know of a few rail fans that have hired out with us over the last 10 years or so. The common denominator with many new hires now for us seems to be ex-military or those still in the Guard or reserves.
Jeff
I've seen good new-hires and bad ones. Some of each are railfans. Some of each aren't. The successful railfans are the ones who can use their prior railroad knowledge to advantage, while remaining humble enough to learn from the veterans. In general, being a railfan can be a definite advantage because there are some railroad basics that the employer doesn't have to teach. One problem is the veteran employee or supervisor who feels threatened by the railfan's knowledge. This can happen if the veteran or supervisor is insecure and possibly not as qualified as we would like. That can go badly for the railfan employee. I've not seen it often, but it does occur.
Tom
zugmann Is there nobody else wants these jobs? Or do they figure these young guys are in it for the long -haul? Good idea to hire the fandom, or not? Thoughts? Discussion? Comments? Insults? Does anybody even care?
I figure that what the railroads expect are healthy, honest, employees who are willing to make the personal commitment to scheduling, willing to be trained, and willing to play by the rules, while remaining substance abuse free, and alert.
Each one of those expectations I mentioned is a potential hurdle that can trip up a valued employee. i think the railroads have come to the realization that the net effect is a constant thinning of the herd, which they are always going to have to deal with. I don't think they really care if an employee has "too much" ambition, so long as he otherwise fits their mold.
Another way to say it is "they want raw meat which they can train, who will remain obedient as well as diligent. And any who can't or won't... will not last very long".
Just to add a little to Tom's (ACY) comment, the potential advantage for a fan is the broader knowledge he may bring to the job beyond the immediate position. This particularly applies in the office environment, where all too many staff have little exposure to the actual operating railroad. Most important, as Tom says, remain humble and learn. A lot of naive preconceptions of the amateur railfan will need to be adjusted as he or she discovers the reality of the railroad business and operation constraints.
John
When it comes to hiring new people for field level jobs (Train & Engine, MofW, Mechanical (both Car & Locomotives) and Signal Dept - the people most likely to become a reliable employee are those that come from a family history that ingrains in them what the requirements of the jobs are all about before they set official foot on the property. Having seen what the job(s) require of their family members (this includes the extended family of in-laws and cousins).
The biggest 'turn off' to those coming in off the street (including railfans) is the time the jobs actually require - time that is not 8-5 Monday through Friday.
I am a 3rd generation railroader, with both my father and grandfather polishing the rails before me. I thought I knew a lot about railroad operations when I hired out - boy was I wrong. What's more, I am still learning today - the learning curve in railroad operations is never ending (and I am a whole lot closer to the date of pulling the pin than I am to my hiring date).
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
zugmannSince it's been slow on here, maybe this will start some discussion. Or not.
You sure got that right.
As to the discussion at hand, my observation within my own field (as well as what some patients have told me about their own careers) corresponds with that of others, especially Balt's. Folks entering are pretty naive and go through a shakedown period in which they either start to figure out the basic parameters or else they wash out. And the learning curve continues on through (and even past) retirement. It must, as most fields are not static.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimmAs to the discussion at hand, my observation within my own field (as well as what some patients have told me about their own careers) corresponds with that of others, especially Balt's. Folks entering are pretty naive and go through a shakedown period in which they either start to figure out the basic parameters or else they wash out.
I think there's been concern expressed by railroads that at least some kinds of 'foamer' fandom are perceived as dangerous to hire, in that they might be distracted from a strict focus on safety if they see, say, a rare 'catch' passing them, or get distracted with some other interest. If I remember correctly, some of the 'advice' to potential new hires is to avoid saying anything at all about being a 'railfan' even if you are asked that question directly -- make it clear that SAFETY is your "first, last, and always" priority. Do we have information on how well different kinds of railfan 'do' after they're hired, or how their interest changes with 'time in'?
Wizlish schlimm As to the discussion at hand, my observation within my own field (as well as what some patients have told me about their own careers) corresponds with that of others, especially Balt's. Folks entering are pretty naive and go through a shakedown period in which they either start to figure out the basic parameters or else they wash out. I think there's been concern expressed by railroads that at least some kinds of 'foamer' fandom are perceived as dangerous to hire, in that they might be distracted from a strict focus on safety if they see, say, a rare 'catch' passing them, or get distracted with some other interest. If I remember correctly, some of the 'advice' to potential new hires is to avoid saying anything at all about being a 'railfan' even if you are asked that question directly -- make it clear that SAFETY is your "first, last, and always" priority. Do we have information on how well different kinds of railfan 'do' after they're hired, or how their interest changes with 'time in'?
schlimm As to the discussion at hand, my observation within my own field (as well as what some patients have told me about their own careers) corresponds with that of others, especially Balt's. Folks entering are pretty naive and go through a shakedown period in which they either start to figure out the basic parameters or else they wash out.
Some "sports" are spectator sports, and some aren't. Then there's the activities that don't seem to fit either category, and confuse the heck out of anyone not involved in said "sports."
Heck, some folks can't figure out why people watch {name your sport}. Something as esoteric as railfanning can really throw people for a loop.
There are plenty of other activities that people would consider strange to "fan." Can't say as I've ever run into anyone who "fans" wait staff at restaurants...
tree68Can't say as I've ever run into anyone who "fans" wait staff at restaurants...
I think several restaurant chains were based on that premise, at least to a major degree: Hooters, Tilted Kilt, to name two.
schlimm tree68 Can't say as I've ever run into anyone who "fans" wait staff at restaurants... I think several restaurant chains were based on that premise, at least to a major degree: Hooters, Tilted Kilt, to name two.
tree68 Can't say as I've ever run into anyone who "fans" wait staff at restaurants...
I believe that fits the category of "sex and the city".
Duckin' and runnin'.
Norm48327 schlimm tree68 Can't say as I've ever run into anyone who "fans" wait staff at restaurants... I think several restaurant chains were based on that premise, at least to a major degree: Hooters, Tilted Kilt, to name two. I believe that fits the category of "sex and the city"...
I believe that fits the category of "sex and the city"...
A better match for typical rail fanac is probably the Bruster's ice cream chain, which frankly has a cruel (if highly interesting) uniform policy and environment for its employees. You never know exactly what you'll find in one, but it's always worth the seeing...
A well known (in railfan publication circles) professional railroader/author wrote an article a few years ago offering advice to railfans looking for a career as train crew:
http://www.railroad.net/articles/columns/hottimes/hottimes_20060602.php
He makes the point that;in his opinion, many folks with a railfan backround make great professional railroaders; but it's not a vocation for everyone. He further states that to work safely and effectively some of one's fan inclinations must be pust aside while on the job.
He also explains why it is generally not wise to identify oneself as a fan during the hiring process..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
carnej1 He also explains why it is generally not wise to identify oneself as a fan during the hiring process..
Normally that was how it was done. But lately, it seems more railfans than not. Even if they tried to hide it, a simple facebook search would yield many railfan photos.
Not that it matters, just interesting to see how successful this group is. I know since my own railfanning interest have pretty much declined into the abyss, I really am losing all interest in this industry.
I've heard from some of the younger railfans on Facebook that it's better to act like they don't really care that much about trains or they might not get hired. But one started working for BNSF a few months ago as conductor trainee and now he's posting pics and saying things about how much he enjoys the trains. His buddy got hired by NS for same type of job and he keeps a very low profile, told us to not tag him any longer in train pics and he shares nothing, he did create a fake profile for some railfanning pics and comments. So it must depend on the RR. Years ago, it didn't matter, Dad was a railfan and had no problems with taking me around the yards where he worked, can't try that today. But he married a railfan too, so that helped. With other guys he worked with, it was just a paycheck, they cared nothing about trains and never even used their pass privileges to travel. I'm glad Dad did. A friend has hubby who works as yard hostler for UP and he doesn't care about trains either, she hangs out with friends who do enjoy railfanning, because he don't.
It must also depend on how one presents oneself. I can't imagine an employer turning away a qualified prospect because he/she happens to be interested in the work!
Many of the top level executives I've worked with are very much railfans and model railroaders. Not as many in the rank and file.
I think I started out a fan but that interest has waned over the years. Some days I don't even want to see a train.
Randy
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