edblysardIt may not be a necessity, but simply a convenient point to do so. Both UP and BNSF send fuel trucks to the PTRA to service their units, be they on unit trains or just the local, even though both carriers have major yards with service facilities really close by.
After reading the article on "Run Through" agreements in the July 2015 issue of Trains magazine, I think they have answered this.
Most, if not all of these diverted trains appear to be originating out West. Once the receiving railroad refuels a run-through consist, they are no longer liable to the originating railroad for fuel depletion. So, refueling these trains soon after taking posession makes sense as a cost-control measure. Now I assume that a part of this entails the locos being freshly refueled (again) just prior to return. But it makes perfect sense to do this, this way.
Part of me was initially wondering how far away these interchange consists must have been coming from, to be "empty" by the time they arrive here. But with this new explanation that they are topping off to control an obligation, it makes perfect sense.
caldreamer I have written an alogorthym for fueling engines, bassed upon fueel on hand and fuel used per gallon for each specific locomotive which is in a database table. It includes all 9 levels of fuel usze from idle thru run 8. Ira
I have written an alogorthym for fueling engines, bassed upon fueel on hand and fuel used per gallon for each specific locomotive which is in a database table. It includes all 9 levels of fuel usze from idle thru run 8.
Ira
Not to belittle your efforts, but big deal. Fueling is company physical characteristics dependent. Where the terminals are, where the 'preferred' fuel vendors are, what terminals can 'afford' the delay their fueling method causes. There are multiple operational variables that only apply to the individual carrier and it's overall operating philosophy.
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Convicted One oltmannd The other answer is "every chance they get". If you pass a mainline fueling station, you get fuel. If a consist gets serviced, it gets fueled. So, could be as little as a few hundred miles. Yet another answer is "too often". Many times, the fueling event is just topping off a mostly full tank The reason I posted this question is that I read in another forum that the eastbound trains NS is diverting onto the old PRR mainline are being refueled in Fort Wayne, IN, with a tanker truck operated by Locomotive Services Inc. In a location that is otherwise "nowhere". So, by use of a contractor at an interim point, it appears that this taking on of fuel is necessary, as opposed to optional. They also state that the next crew change point is Mansfield OH, with the eventual destination of Conway yerd. Something must be going on such that those trains are already too fuel depleted to make it only as much further as Conway.
oltmannd The other answer is "every chance they get". If you pass a mainline fueling station, you get fuel. If a consist gets serviced, it gets fueled. So, could be as little as a few hundred miles. Yet another answer is "too often". Many times, the fueling event is just topping off a mostly full tank
The reason I posted this question is that I read in another forum that the eastbound trains NS is diverting onto the old PRR mainline are being refueled in Fort Wayne, IN, with a tanker truck operated by Locomotive Services Inc. In a location that is otherwise "nowhere".
So, by use of a contractor at an interim point, it appears that this taking on of fuel is necessary, as opposed to optional.
They also state that the next crew change point is Mansfield OH, with the eventual destination of Conway yerd.
Something must be going on such that those trains are already too fuel depleted to make it only as much further as Conway.
These are likely run-thru trains coming to NS over Chicago. Fuel tax is higher in IL than IN, so that's why Ft. Wayne rather than Chicago. Normally, these trains would use Chicago Line and fuel at Elkhart, but recent changes have moved some over to the NKP.
Direct from truck fueling is common in lots of places on the RR, but not a lot is done on mainlines.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Convicted One Hadn't considered that possibility. So you are suggesting that they might be receiving this fuel (delivery) as part of a larger, overall fuel service contract, where the tanker at this site is just a piece of the bigger picture? Interesting.
Hadn't considered that possibility. So you are suggesting that they might be receiving this fuel (delivery) as part of a larger, overall fuel service contract, where the tanker at this site is just a piece of the bigger picture?
Interesting.
OUr little yard got a fuel truck. From what I understood, the truck (or at least trailer) was owned by the railroad - while the driver (and possible tractor) were contracted out.
One area I dispatched used a truck for mainline refueling. And certain trains had to get fuel no matter what, others only if they were below a certain threshold... I don't think there is one unified plan. Just a mish-mash of instructions that can change on a whim.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
edblysard fleets of fuel trucks running around their yards servicing locomotives, because it is often easier to take the fuel to the locomotive, than it is to take the locomotive to the fuel. These trucks are owned and operated by the same contractor that provides the fuel to the carriers main service facility, I assume because it is just cheaper to let them manage the logistics and service of the truck fleet than doing it in house...all it takes is a phone call from the power desk or dispatcher to get a fuel truck on the way.
It may not be a necessity, but simply a convenient point to do so.
Both UP and BNSF send fuel trucks to the PTRA to service their units, be they on unit trains or just the local, even though both carriers have major yards with service facilities really close by.
UP's Englewood and Settagast yards are only a few miles away, and BNSF's New South Yard is a half hour hop from us.
It may be that the units being fueled may not be stopping at Conway for any length of time, or may be running through to another destination.
Keep in mind that in a busy yard getting units to a fuel pad may be a very time consuming operation which may interfere with yard operations like switching or departure of other trains, so fueling the units outside the yard may simply be the most expedient way.
If the train is stopped for a crew change, fueling them then may be the fastest way to get it done.
Both Englewood and Settagast have fleets of fuel trucks running around their yards servicing locomotives, because it is often easier to take the fuel to the locomotive, than it is to take the locomotive to the fuel.
These trucks are owned and operated by the same contractor that provides the fuel to the carriers main service facility, I assume because it is just cheaper to let them manage the logistics and service of the truck fleet than doing it in house...all it takes is a phone call from the power desk or dispatcher to get a fuel truck on the way.
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oltmanndThe other answer is "every chance they get". If you pass a mainline fueling station, you get fuel. If a consist gets serviced, it gets fueled. So, could be as little as a few hundred miles. Yet another answer is "too often". Many times, the fueling event is just topping off a mostly full tank
edblysard Paul_D_North_Jr Isn't there an FRA requirement for a"running inspection" of all freight trains at intervals of not more than every 1,000 miles ? If so, wherever that inspection takes place on a regular basis would seem to be a good place to also refuel the locomotives. - Paul North. Yes, there is such a requirement, and UP’s Bailey Yard has fuel pads on several of their run through tracks to service through freight and unit trains, with a “pit crew” who can service and inspect a locomotive(s) in under an hour. Memory says their goal is 45 minutes per train….. Trains magazine had an article about Bailey Yard a few years ago, and there is a History Channel documentary on railroading that also features this operation.
Paul_D_North_Jr Isn't there an FRA requirement for a"running inspection" of all freight trains at intervals of not more than every 1,000 miles ? If so, wherever that inspection takes place on a regular basis would seem to be a good place to also refuel the locomotives. - Paul North.
Isn't there an FRA requirement for a"running inspection" of all freight trains at intervals of not more than every 1,000 miles ?
If so, wherever that inspection takes place on a regular basis would seem to be a good place to also refuel the locomotives.
- Paul North.
Argentine mainline fuel pad in KC. Signalled in and out. Zoom in. Get gas. Zoom out.
https://flic.kr/p/pC5Xs3
UP mainline fueling at Bailey Yard is visible at far end of this shot
https://flic.kr/p/shRrmk
Convicted One Typically, (YES I am aware that variables come into play) how many miles does a main line freight travel between fueling? Mostly level ground, manifest freight, moderate weather...looking for a rule of thumb type figure not an iron clad guarantee.
Typically, (YES I am aware that variables come into play) how many miles does a main line freight travel between fueling? Mostly level ground, manifest freight, moderate weather...looking for a rule of thumb type figure not an iron clad guarantee.
Conrail's intermodal trains had a range of 1200 miles. Most would fuel at Elkhart and Harrisburg in one direction only, so would go 900 miles or so between fuelings.
The other answer is "every chance they get". If you pass a mainline fueling station, you get fuel. If a consist gets serviced, it gets fueled. So, could be as little as a few hundred miles.
Yet another answer is "too often". Many times, the fueling event is just topping off a mostly full tank.
Hunting for a functional, reliable, tank gauge to use in planning fueling has been a wild goose chase. Being able to implement a fuel useage algorithm to be used for planning fueling - also not happening.
The main goal of fueling planning is to steer away from high tax/cost locations to lower cost.
BroadwayLion Locomotives are no different. The crews need a break, and you may as well refuel the engine while you are stopped.
In most cases trains are fueled at a crew change but not every crew change. Its not needed from a fuel standpoint and would cause too much delay. Crew changes can take a few minutes while fueling take a lot longer. A Chicago to Los Angeles train might change crews 10 times and only be fueled twice.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
BroadwayLionBesides a stop at the gas station allows one to go potty, to buy a hot dog or an ice cream and then continue on the way. How can you do that on a locomotive.
I have a number of times observed NS trains stopped well 'short' of the end of a siding (either on the main or side track) when making a meet on the ex-Southern line east of Memphis. The crews do this to walk a block to Wendy's and a Shell convenience store. I'm sure this happens many other places, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them have easy acces for a fuel truck. (Although I'd draw the line at crews nipping into the Shakers in Waverly, Nebraska that was mentioned in another thread!)
Modern Marvels "Freight trains" episode.
One would think! However, my carrier has rarely been accused of thinking; and most of our train runs are less than 1000 miles.
BroadwayLionHey this is better than the old steamy locomotives which had to be refueld and watered far more frequently.
NYC built some of their locomotive tenders with huge fuel bunkers and relatively small water tanks - which were refilled "on the fly" at track pans.
Obviously this wasn't the case with that 0-6-0 yard goat...
I believe the Pennsy did so as well. Not sure if any other RRs used the practice.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68I would opine that they've already kind of done that, which is why they have fuel depots where they do. I think most folks who drive a fair amount probably have a fuel routine based on their regular usage.
I do not have any locomotives, but we do have a fleet of cars. Br. Louie comes out and fuels each car in the morning, so I usually depart the garage without ever checking the fuel gauge. If I take a car out too early it might not have been fueled yet, and out here that can be dangerous in the winter time, since none of our cars can make two round trips to Bismarck without refuling. Of course automobiles are easier to refule than locomotives, since there are many more gas stations than fueling depots for locomotives. Besides a stop at the gas station allows one to go potty, to buy a hot dog or an ice cream and then continue on the way. How can you do that on a locomotive. Sure you got a head in the nose, but is that really a comodious option?
When LION was in NAVY (him served on an aircraft carrier) the tankers chased us all around the Gulf refueling us every few days, weapons, food and sotres were also replentished at sea, but every 30 days or so the ship had to pull into port just to give the crews a break. Locomotives are no different. The crews need a break, and you may as well refuel the engine while you are stopped.
Hey this is better than the old steamy locomotives which had to be refueld and watered far more frequently. But the railroad, like the Navy (I suppose) wants to keep the bunkers as full as possible, for you never know when you may suddenly be deployed to a different ocean, and it will take many days before your retinue of supply ships can reach you. (Been there, done that, got the medals to show for it.)
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
tree68 Here's a somewhat dated chart of fuel usage, by locomotive type: http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/fueluse.htm
http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/fueluse.htm
Note that for '2nd generation' and more current models, the "Specific Fuel Consumption" rate ranges between 16 and 21 Hp-Hrs./ Gal.
Next, look up the fuel tank size for the specific locomotive model under consideration - for example:
http://www.thedieselshop.us/INDEXBLDR.html
http://www.thedieselshop.us/E.html
http://www.thedieselshop.us/EMDMOD.HTML
http://www.thedieselshop.us/DataEMDIndexRS.HTML
http://www.thedieselshop.us/Data%20EMD%20SD40-2.HTML for the SD40-2 - 3200 gals (near the bottom of the page).
Apply (divide by) one of the fuel consumption rates from Al Krug's chart above, take a guess at the MPH speed, and there's your answer.
dehusmanYou don't fuel a unit for where its been, you fuel it for where its going. If the next fuel stop is 800 miles away, even if the engine has 3/4 tank of fuel, you would still full fuel it so you know it will make the NEXT fuel station.
Excellent point.
blue streak 1With the loco usage rate now in place it would seem that any loco could track its fuel use. Fuel remaining transmitted to RR loco fuel desk. Immediate desk calculation could calculate when loco(s) needed fuel at available fuel location.
I would opine that they've already kind of done that, which is why they have fuel depots where they do. I think most folks who drive a fair amount probably have a fuel routine based on their regular usage.
Locomotives that don't run through trips usually have some form of "regular" usage, so deliveries (or trips to a fuel point) can be planned accordingly.
We get fuel once a week, delivered by a local contractor. We've found that to be sufficient to prevent us from running out of fuel. Trying to squeeze a second week out of a fill can be a problem. We also have gensets (for HEP) to keep fueled.
You could do that, but the railroad plan where the fueling stops will be and fuel the units accordingly. You don't fuel a unit for where its been, you fuel it for where its going. If the next fuel stop is 800 miles away, even if the engine has 3/4 tank of fuel, you would still full fuel it so you know it will make the NEXT fuel station.
Fueling an engine at an ad hoc location is very expensive and time consuming. The fuel vendor has to be able to reach the engine, the vendor has to have enough fuel in the tanker to fuel the engine (you can drain a trailer type tank into one engine) and the vendor has to have the proper fittings to connect the hose to the locomotive. If the vendor has to fill 3 engines and only has one truck then they might have to make 2 or 3 trips back to the fuel terminal to reload the trucks, a VERY slow process.
Here's a somewhat dated chart of fuel usage, by locomotive type:
DeggestyThe trip that I referred to was in 2008, after a culvert north of the station in Memphis had collapsed
The collapse I remember was south of the station, just past the end of the platform. There was a brick culvert that dated from pre-Civil War times, about 50 feet down, that failed and caused an enormous sinkhole to open up.
Wizlish Deggesty Fueling the City of New Orleans at Memphis may be standard practice; My wife and I went through Memphis during the time that the train had to go through the freight yard because a culvert beneath the pasenger track had collapsed, and the engine was fueled at the stop that was made for passengers to transfer to/from the bus(es) that ferried them to/from the station. It was standard practice then because there were two complete trainsets involved, one south of the break, and one that terminated in Memphis going southbound (arriving from Chicago in the morning) and then sat there all day until departure back to Chicago after 10 pm. Unsurprisingly with no access to fuel facilities in New Orleans, and that long a wait, and with easy road access up to within a few feet of the locomotives, Central Station was an obvious place to perform refueling. I never saw how the southern-end train was refueled.
Deggesty Fueling the City of New Orleans at Memphis may be standard practice; My wife and I went through Memphis during the time that the train had to go through the freight yard because a culvert beneath the pasenger track had collapsed, and the engine was fueled at the stop that was made for passengers to transfer to/from the bus(es) that ferried them to/from the station.
It was standard practice then because there were two complete trainsets involved, one south of the break, and one that terminated in Memphis going southbound (arriving from Chicago in the morning) and then sat there all day until departure back to Chicago after 10 pm. Unsurprisingly with no access to fuel facilities in New Orleans, and that long a wait, and with easy road access up to within a few feet of the locomotives, Central Station was an obvious place to perform refueling. I never saw how the southern-end train was refueled.
Johnny
Western roads have more run through fueling facilities because they have longer runs. On the UP they fuel at N Platte, Rawlins, N Little Rock, Denison, El Paso, Santa Theresa plus truck fueling at lots of other places.
The current road locomotives are delivered with 5000 gallon tanks.
My carrier rates the range of a full tank as 900 miles with loaded bulk commodities. 1000 miles in normal Manifest freight service and 1100 miles in Intermodal service.
There is only one mainline fueling facility on the property. All other designated fueling facilities are at locomotive shops. All other fueling (which is most of it) is done tank truck (truck also supplies sand and toilet service) where ever it is needed in various terminals - both endpoint and line of road.
Current procedures are for crews to report when a locomotive's fuel reading is less than 1000 gallons.
BroadwayLionBismarck-Mandan has fuling facilities for trains headded in either direction (at each end of the terminal).
Lion, if it's a terminal wouldn't fuel requirements in one of the directions out of it be comparatively slight?
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