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Metrolink accident and derailment in Oxnard, Ca Febuary 24, 2015

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Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 8:25 PM

Norm48327

 

 
schlimm

Over the past years, it's clear that many forum members reject the concept and cost of better rail crossing protection: "Darwin Award winners"  "Idiots"  "too expensive" etc.   But it is a two-edged sword, since it seems possible that railroad personnel need better protection from vehicles, whatever the cause of their being on the tracks.

 

 

 

Disagree. There is always room for improvement. Whether the powers that be are willing to pay those costs is open to speculation.

There seems, however, an unwillingness on the part of some posters to acknowledge that others may have a valid opinion. Snarky comments only reinforce that image.

 

Snarky?   Perhaps you should look up the defintion, because you misuse the term whenever  some state facts which you do not like.   Just within the hour, on the other current crossing thread another forum member described the victims of crossing accidents with a pejorative.

"Unfortantley there are idiots who will never respect grade crossings, and then wonder why they get into a collision. "

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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 8:10 PM

Euclid
Even though drivers can simply make a mistake, the industry’s bitterness over the perpetual crossing problem causes it to label grade crossing crash victims as “stupid.” This allows the industry to justify the lack of a fix for the problem with the conclusion that, “You can’t fix stupid.”

 

Have a reference for that outlandish claim?

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 7:52 PM
Norm48327
 
schlimm

Over the past years, it's clear that many forum members reject the concept and cost of better rail crossing protection: "Darwin Award winners"  "Idiots"  "too expensive" etc.   But it is a two-edged sword, since it seems possible that railroad personnel need better protection from vehicles, whatever the cause of their being on the tracks.

 

 

 

Disagree. There is always room for improvement. Whether the powers that be are willing to pay those costs is open to speculation.

There seems, however, an unwillingness on the part of some posters to acknowledge that others may have a valid opinion. Snarky comments only reinforce that image.

 

The train is always in the right in a crossing collision.  Yet, no matter how much crossing protection is installed, collisions continue to occur.  While the collisions kill drivers, they also damage trains, injure or kill trainmen and passengers, and often cost money for settlements on behalf drivers despite the right of the train to pass.   Apparently nothing can completely prevent problem even though it is only a matter of controlling driver discretion. 
I believe that 150 years of this experience has left the industry frustrated and taking it personally as an affront on the part of drivers.   The frustration inspires monstrous science fiction grade crossing machines shouting warnings and death threats, or solid steel walls that rise up out of the roadway to completely seal off a crossing from any passage.  
Even though drivers can simply make a mistake, the industry’s bitterness over the perpetual crossing problem causes it to label grade crossing crash victims as “stupid.”  This allows the industry to justify the lack of a fix for the problem with the conclusion that, “You can’t fix stupid.” 
If you can’t fix the problem because drivers are stupid, then the only hope is to kill them all off.  That is the basis of the “Darwin Award.”   It refers nature weeding out the weak so only the strong survive, except in this case, it is nature weeding out the stupid.  So the Darwin Award is a celebration of the death of a crossing victim because they won’t breed and produce anymore stupid people.  It is the only solution in the minds of many.   
Adding more safety measures to crossings conflicts the Darwin solution to the grade crossing problem.  Added safety might preserve the stupid, and thus perpetuate the crossing problem. 
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Posted by Norm48327 on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 6:17 PM

schlimm

Over the past years, it's clear that many forum members reject the concept and cost of better rail crossing protection: "Darwin Award winners"  "Idiots"  "too expensive" etc.   But it is a two-edged sword, since it seems possible that railroad personnel need better protection from vehicles, whatever the cause of their being on the tracks.

 

Disagree. There is always room for improvement. Whether the powers that be are willing to pay those costs is open to speculation.

There seems, however, an unwillingness on the part of some posters to acknowledge that others may have a valid opinion. Snarky comments only reinforce that image.

Norm


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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 5:31 PM

schlimm

Over the past years, it's clear that many forum members reject the concept and cost of better rail crossing protection: "Darwin Award winners"  "Idiots"  "too expensive" etc.   But it is a two-edged sword, since it seems possible that railroad personnel need better protection from vehicles, whatever the cause of their being on the tracks.

Grade Separation is in the hands of governmental entities - they are the folks that believe it is too expensive to protect the voters that put them in office.

If the railroads could, they would close all grade crossings and end the problem tomorrow - they can't.  Today's carriers are actively working to close as many crossings as possible - on my carrier it is one of the things division level personnel are graded on for their bonus and advancement.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 5:07 PM

Over the past years, it's clear that many forum members reject the concept and cost of better rail crossing protection: "Darwin Award winners"  "Idiots"  "too expensive" etc.   But it is a two-edged sword, since it seems possible that railroad personnel need better protection from vehicles, whatever the cause of their being on the tracks.

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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 1:42 PM

Looks like due to the angle, the bus ended up under the gate but was nowhere near the foul of the track (if I'm looking at the video right).  I'd assume the bus had to pull out that far to look up the tracks when the gates activated. 

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 1:34 PM

Euclid
[snipped - PDN.] . . . He became stalled on the tracks and did exactly what Operation Lifesaver tells drivers to do.  They tell drivers to make no attempt to extricate your stalled vehicle.  Just leave it where it is and run for safety.  In this case, I think the driver even did make some attempt to extricate the vehicle and get it into the clear.  The driver did contact the police about the situation exactly as he was supposed to do. . . .

Not sure this is the best thread to post this too, but it seems close enough:

Link to a news report published Dec. 14, 2014 about a school bus full of students getting "stuck" or "caught under" under the gate at a diagonal crossing at the intersection of Church and Chestsnut Sts. in Hazleton, PA.  "Authorities say the bus driver did the right thing by staying put . . . ".  Fortunately, this NS line is a branch, and the locals say the usual speed is about 10 MPH, so there really wasn't much danger to the bus and its children.    

http://wnep.com/2014/12/17/officials-check-railroad-crossing-safety/ 

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 12:54 AM

The Los Angeles Times report of the engineer's passing is FREE.  On the below article, scroll down to the text.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-20150303-story.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by wanswheel on Tuesday, March 3, 2015 10:54 PM
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Posted by AgentKid on Tuesday, March 3, 2015 4:10 PM

narig01

Heated up the link.

Bruce

 

So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.

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Posted by narig01 on Tuesday, March 3, 2015 2:18 PM
Sadly the Locomotive Engineer has died from his injuries. http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2015/03/metrolink-engineer-dies-one-week-after-grade-crossing-collision-derailment Regards IGN
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Posted by Norm48327 on Tuesday, March 3, 2015 12:28 PM

KABC Los Angeles is reporting he died.

Norm


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Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, March 3, 2015 12:11 PM

confirmed report engineer died of injuries.  If so time to charge truck driver with involuntary manslaughter.

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Posted by ORNHOO on Monday, March 2, 2015 7:50 PM
It is apparently not known at his time why the car was on the tracks at Camarillo, but I would like to point out that improved lighting/signage/etc. would only deter accidental intrusions onto the right of way, crossing arms across the rail line would also deter deliberate vehicular trespass.
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Posted by tree68 on Monday, March 2, 2015 10:56 AM

Same highway, too (CA34).  The location is similar in layout: N 34.20546 W 119.04111

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Posted by vsmith on Monday, March 2, 2015 9:39 AM
FYI there was ANOTHER accident along the SAME stretch of track AGAIN this weekend. Car this time. No injuries besides a totaled car and the scratched paint on the Amtrak. http://www.keyt.com/news/a-train-crashes-into-a-vehicle-in-camarillo/31559474

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by Euclid on Monday, March 2, 2015 7:33 AM
Apparently no charges will be filed, not even a traffic violation.  The police stubbornly insist  that the driver never contacted them.  Yet they fail to mention that the driver could not speak English well, so he contacted his son to relay the message to the police.  So the police were contacted about the emergency situation at the crossing.
The official instructions to drivers in stalled vehicle situations is to immediately exit the vehicle and seek shelter in case of a train collision.  There is not necessarily time to contact anybody who could prevent a crash if a crash is imminent.   
It seems as though the media, and the official information presented, have been way over the top with their demonization of the driver.  It sounds like the driver did exactly what he was supposed to do from start to finish, except for making a traffic mistake at a crossing that is now being characterized as an “accident waiting to happen.”
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Posted by Euclid on Monday, March 2, 2015 6:46 AM

I recall one of the news reports said that the driver was not relying on, or following GPS, but rather, was only following a printed-out computer map.

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Sunday, March 1, 2015 10:23 PM

Each crossing shows four street lights, one on each taffic signal mast of which there are four, one on each quadrent. How bright is another question but the intersections are definitely lit.

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Sunday, March 1, 2015 9:56 PM

Paul D. North Jr. (3-1):

Greetings, Paul.  It has been a while since we’ve exchanged thoughts.

In the below aerial link of 5th Street and Rice Ave. in Oxnard (CA), I see at least two stoplights with common lights that light up the intersection.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Oxnard,+CA/@34.1969819,-119.1422211,99m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x80e84de61325679f:0x598049c0fa5eb645

There may or may not be more, but an onsite inspection will say for sure.

Best,

K.P.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, March 1, 2015 9:44 PM

Paul_D_North_Jr

K.P. - I see several streetlights in your photos above.  Are there any at the Oxnard crossing ?

- Paul North.

I'm not KP, but I was curious, so I did some looking.  Don't know if this street view will load up properly:Oxnard Crossing

I see one street light at the crossing, on the east side of the street.  There are more up the street, looking north.

This fellow is hardly the first to take the tracks instead of the street.  In recent years that's been blamed on more than a few occasions on blindly following a GPS.  No GPS has been mentioned in any reports so far, so it's likely we can rule that option out.

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Sunday, March 1, 2015 8:44 PM

K.P. - I see several streetlights in your photos above.  Are there any at the Oxnard crossing ?

- Paul North.

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Sunday, March 1, 2015 8:22 PM

Concerning this statement by mudchicken:

mudchicken

In Los Angeles on the BNSF side, Rosecrans & Marquardt [Santa Fe Springs/ La Mirada] has been a constant headache for as long as I can seem to remember with continual new and creative stooopid people tricks.

A number of months ago MikeF90 had somehow alerted me to the Rosecrans and Marquardt Avenues grade crossing in Santa Fe Springs, CA where the BNSF Transcon diagonally goes through the intersection.  Because of him a September 1, 2014 visit to the site was made.

Personally, I found the grade crossing semi-well protected, but the red flashing lights visually blocked in at least one area (southbound on Marquardt Ave.).

Unfortunately, NO trains came while I was present and taking many photos.  However, returning to my vehicle a couple of blocks away, a San Diego bound Amtrak passed.  The crossing gate jumped out with flares to the middle of the southbound lanes and protected the crossing!
 

Seriously, I found the crossing just needing a visual clear path to that flasher and maybe center of the street flashers as well.

Concerning the Oxnard, CA location of the collision that this thread IS about, I’ve studied aerials and I find no reasonable reason why the vehicle that was struck was actually on the tracks.  When I have some free time it is hoped a visit to the Oxnard site can be made.  If I do, I’ll post photos slanted towards any problems with the grade crossing itself, but I very, very seriously doubt I’ll find much.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.

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Posted by MikeF90 on Sunday, March 1, 2015 2:52 PM

mudchicken
In Los Angeles on the BNSF side, Rosecrans & Marquardt [Santa Fe Springs/ La Mirada] has been a constant headache for as long as I can seem to remember with continual new and creative stooopid people tricks.

Stoopid people tricks indeed! With the high frequency, loud (no QZ) rail traffic it's hard to understand why some drivers Just Don't Get It.

Looks like Metro has 'rebooted' this grade separation project long awaiting funding:

http://media.metro.net/projects_studies/regionalrail/factsheet_rosecransmarquardt_2015-0224.pdf

http://www.whittierdailynews.com/general-news/20141021/la-mirada-santa-fe-springs-officials-celebrate-opening-of-valley-view-railroad-underpass

In the meantime they redid the raised median on Rosecrans last year but did Not put in four-quadrant gates. Surprise

Now, back to topic .....

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Posted by erikem on Sunday, March 1, 2015 2:21 PM

FWIW, the LA Times website has an article on efforts to improve grade crossing safety. A couple of take-aways: The costs for a grade separations range from $20 million to $100 million. Four quadrant crossing gates have "99 per cent fewer collisions" than unprotected crossings, while dual quadrant gates have "81 per cent fewer collisons". The article did mention that several of the four quadrant gaes have trapped vehicle detectors and raise the appropriate gate to let the vehicle out.

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Posted by mudchicken on Sunday, March 1, 2015 1:43 PM

The problem is less railroad and more MUTCD. White gate arm or heavy (16") white stripe throws the highway bubbas for a loop. (White being a relatively neutral color on the railroad side of the fence and smashboards not being out of the railroad vocabulary that long. Smashboards would cause "issues" in Class 3 track and up)....

In Los Angeles on the BNSF side, Rosecrans & Marquardt [Santa Fe Springs/ La Mirada] has been a constant headache for as long as I can seem to remember with continual new and creative stooopid people tricks.

 

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, March 1, 2015 1:42 PM

zugmann
I was wondering if special markings, paint and/or imbedded road reflectors would help as well at xings near intersections.

I had about the same thought.  However, short of the in-pavement lights, or some sort of texture, I'm not sure pavement markings alone would make a big difference.  People rarely pay much attention to what's already there.  

For the cost of some paint and some pavement grooving, though, it might be enough to make a difference.  

The key point is looking at exactly how often it happens, and dealing with the problem areas.  These probably aren't a one size fits all solutions.

 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Sunday, March 1, 2015 1:29 PM

zugmann

I was wondering if special markings, paint and/or imbedded road reflectors would help as well at xings near intersections.

 

 
ZUG:  You are on the right track.  Airport runways have inbedded high intensity centerline lights that are directional.  These lights  could only point in the direction of the roadway and not into engineer's  eyes. 
A major advantage is that snow plows cannot tear them out of the ground.  Sometimes the  snow and ice will obscure them temporarily but the heat of the light quickly melts snow and it drains down into the ground. 
Not only can they deliniate the side of the roadway but could be installed in the roadway crossing panels inside the guage of the  rails.
One advantage is that they are being manufactured now.
 
 
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Posted by zugmann on Sunday, March 1, 2015 11:07 AM

tree68
A down side of this is crossing failures. Currently, if crossing warning equipment fails, the worst that can happen to a train (other than hitting a vehicle) is having to stop and flag. This option would completely block the crossing.

 

Wouldn't be a big deal.  Just install a quick release mechanism for the gate itself so a crew member can detach it and toss it off to the side if needed.

 

I was wondering if special markings, paint and/or imbedded road reflectors would help as well at xings near intersections.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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