Metrolink accident and derailment in Oxnard, Ca Febuary 24, 2015

[BaltACD]

Being a welding truck & trailer - I suspect there were bottles of acetelyene and oxygen on board that are what caused the fire when they were breached by the impact of the collision.

[ricktrains4824]

If, indeed, welders supplies were on board, that would, definitely, cause a fire... You, sir, maybe onto something there. 

[ACY Tom]

The TV reporting, as stated above, is pretty poor. 

The train "flew off the tracks."  FLEW?

The train struck the truck, "decimating it"?  Look up decimate.  Destroyed would be closer to the truth.  Incorrect use of decimate is a pet peeve of mine.

Tom

[BaltACD]

A more measured report -

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Metrolink-Train-Crash-Oxnard-Camarillo-Ventura-County-293835911.html

[Euclid]

I am exhausted by the torturous semantics of “Stuck on the tracks.” 

Apparently, the driver mistook the tracks for a road that he intended to enter.  He did not get “stuck” in terms of being high-centered on the crossing, or by being stopped by traffic.  Since he drove down the track 80 feet, I assume that the truck was not high-centered on the track as he drove.  Apparently, the train was in sight when the truck stopped on the track. 

Here is what we don’t know:  Whether or not the driver was unable to drive off of the track by climbing over the rails.  I think most people would attempt to do that unless the train was too close.  But the driver might have found it impossible to get the truck to climb off of the tracks.  I would call that being “stuck on the track.”  I cannot image how the NTSB is able to rule that out, as they apparently have. 

It is also possible that the driver never attempted to drive the truck off of the track by turning to one side or the other.  If that is the case, he did exactly what Operation Lifesaver tells drivers to do in that circumstance. 

[vsmith]

Unfortunately the only way to prevent something like this from happening is to separate the grades. Expensive but I suspect within a decade either the roads or the tracks here will either be on a flyover or entrenched. The way the roadway intersections and traffic signals are set up here on this stretch of 5th street, the risk of grade crossing incursions is never going to be eliminated as it is. This is what has happened in other places in SoCal where increased development and increased traffic has occured, and Oxnard/Camarillo is only going to continue to grow.

[Norm48327]

Rather than relying on the usually inaccurate media, I would like to see the cab video.

[BaltACD]

Norm48327

Rather than relying on the usually inaccurate media, I would like to see the cab video.

I suspect that may become available through clandestine channels after the NTSB gets fully into their investigation.

[Buslist]

vsmith

Unfortunately the only way to prevent something like this from happening is to separate the grades. Expensive but I suspect within a decade either the roads or the tracks here will either be on a flyover or entrenched. The way the roadway intersections and traffic signals are set up here on this stretch of 5th street, the risk of grade crossing incursions is never going to be eliminated as it is. This is what has happened in other places in SoCal where increased development and increased traffic has occured, and Oxnard/Camarillo is only going to continue to grow.

 

of course we had the case in the UK where an SUV came off the road on the incline to an overpass and ended up on the tracks derailing a train, no problem until the derailed train was in the path of an oncoming train in the other direction. So overpasses don't completely solve it all.

[DS4-4-1000]

Buslist

vsmithUnfortunately the only way to prevent something like this from happening is to separate the grades. Expensive but I suspect within a decade either the roads or the tracks here will either be on a flyover or entrenched. The way the roadway intersections and traffic signals are set up here on this stretch of 5th street, the risk of grade crossing incursions is never going to be eliminated as it is. This is what has happened in other places in SoCal where increased development and increased traffic has occured, and Oxnard/Camarillo is only going to continue to grow. of course we had the case in the UK where an SUV came off the road on the incline to an overpass and ended up on the tracks derailing a train, no problem until the derailed train was in the path of an oncoming train in the other direction. So overpasses don't completely solve it all.

And a similar incident occurred recently in Texas involving a Prison Bus ending up on the tracks at a highway overpass.

[zardoz]

What's up with all these derailments lately? It sure seems like the cars are causing so many problems. Since when did road vehicles become so dangerous to trains?

Perhaps the front end of locomotives and cabcars need a different design so these vehicles do not become involved with the train's running gear. The plow-shaped pilot used to be sufficient to deflect a struck object. I wonder what has changed lately; or is it just coincidence?

[Firelock76]

I'm not so sure anything's changed, except we're in what's been called a "24 Hour News Cycle" nowadays. Local incidents and accidents that may have gone unreported by the national media as recently as 25 years ago now get covered as they've got to fill all that air time with SOMETHING.

Throw the internet into the mix and then there's even more coverage.

Considering that it's no mystery why an incident that used to be strictly local now goes national.

[tree68]

zardoz

What's up with all these derailments lately? It sure seems like the cars are causing so many problems. Since when did road vehicles become so dangerous to trains?

Back in the 60's, a car hauler with a load of Ford Econoline vans all prettied up for "Wynn's Frictionproofing" took a wrong turn and high centered on a crossing in Milford, MI.  Of course, a train came along and hit it (I have no idea of the time frame, all I recall is the aftermath).

Nowadays, that probably would have made the news cycle.

Back then, it probably didn't rate a column inch or two in the Detroit Free Press, or Detroit News.

Of course, there was no explosion or other devestation.  Just a bunch of red and yellow vans scattered around.

That crossing (Liberty Street) has been closed for years, although there is talk of putting a pedestrian tunnel there.

[MikeF90]

Per the above nbclosangeles post, the truck driver's lawyer stated that "He does not know how or why the truck he was driving stopped on the tracks ..."

Hmmm. I would have noticed, say within one car length, the SEVERELY ROUGH RIDE from being on railroad ties spaced two feet apart.  Maybe not in a 1968 Cadillac El Dorado, but certainly in a Ford F-450.  Any experienced railroad tie drivers care to comment?

[Deggesty]

I am not sure if having one such ride qualifies me as a railroad tie driver, but one midnight when I left work I was in a fog dense enough for me to miss a right-hand turn that I knew I had to make to get home. Knowing that the street I was on merged with another street that was at a right angle to the one I should have turned on to, I kept going until I thought I had reached the point at which I was to make a sharp right turn. However, I soon knew, from the bump-bump-bump that I was on the railroad that pararelled the street I thought I was turning on. Had I kept on, I would have reached the street I had missed. However, I thought better of that, and backed up until I was on pavement--and made it home safely from there.

 

Do I miss spel Czech! After posting, I saw a spelling error--and found several more when I came back to correct that one.

[samfp1943]

MikeF90

Per the above nbclosangeles post, the truck driver's lawyer stated that "He does not know how or why the truck he was driving stopped on the tracks ..."

Hmmm. I would have noticed, say within one car length, the SEVERELY ROUGH RIDE from being on railroad ties spaced two feet apart.  Maybe not in a 1968 Cadillac El Dorado, but certainly in a Ford F-450.  Any experienced railroad tie drivers care to comment?

 

Or, MikeF90;

You might have had a situation line the one pictured on this link (?) @ http://www.wctrib.com/content/train-stops-brainerd-moments-it-would-have-hit-truck

 Maybe, The BNSF engineer in Brainerd,MN was going slow enoght to stop for the truck on his tracks(?)   Or then you have one like the one here in Wichita this day when the BNSF train clipped a truck on the tracks(?)  See @ http://www.knssradio.com/Train-Clips-Semi-Truck-in-S-Wichita/21014172

Could it also be part of the problem that "Driver Training", and an ability to      read, and understand signs in English has gone away,,lately?  

 

[Deggesty]

Sam, are you sure that the driver comprehends English?

[BaltACD]

Truck driver had previous indicents with law

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Metrolink-California-Train-Crash-Derailment-NTSB-Ventura-County-294015831.html

[Euclid]

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-82911097/

Quote from the article:

 

“Why was that truck there? And once it was there, why did it not move?” he said.

Investigators, he said, “want to learn anything that we can from his perspective to help explain how that vehicle ended up driving down that railroad track.”

Oxnard police initially said Sanchez-Ramirez was attempting to turn his 2005 Ford F-450 onto 5th Street at Rice Avenue when he instead pulled onto the railroad tracks and became stuck. The truck was pulling a trailer carrying welding tools and other equipment.

At a news conference Wednesday, the driver’s attorney, Ron Bamieh, said his client did his utmost to move his truck from the path of the oncoming train. "That’s all this was ... an accident," he said.

Sanchez-Ramirez, his attorney said, called his son after the crash so that he could explain to police in English what his father was doing and how he ended up at the crash site.

Bamieh said Wednesday the truck "could go forward on the tracks, but it couldn't get off the tracks."

Sanchez-Ramirez hit his high beams, his lawyer said, and even tried to push his truck out of the way.

"He was then forced to flee to save his own life," Bamieh said.

Bamieh said Sanchez-Ramirez had a flip phone -- with no digital maps. He was relying on a printed-out online map and was in the area Tuesday morning only to find the route he would take for a meeting on Wednesday for his job, his attorney said.

--------------------------------------------------

It seems odd the way the officials are releasing the information.  Why the big mystery about the reason the driver drove the truck onto the tracks?  The police say he mistook the tracks for a parallel road he was intending to turn onto.  That same thing has happen before at that crossing, causing another train collision. Driving onto the tracks by mistake sure seems like the most plausible explanation.  Here is an idea.  Why not ask the driver why he drove on the tracks? 

The investigators act like there was some big conspiracy to wreck the train because they insist that the truck was not STUCK on the tracks.  It may not have been stuck from moving forward or backward.  But might it have been STUCK in terms of its ability to move off the track sideways? The official insistence that the truck was not stuck suggests that the driver should have simply moved out of the way.  

You could easily drive a truck like that over the tracks without any crossing.  But after entering the tracks parallel to them, getting the truck to climb the rail lengthwise to move off the track could present problems.  With the truck in a heap several hundred feet from the point of impact, how do the investigators know that the truck could have been simply driven off of the track?    

[Electroliner 1935]

To drive off a track, one has to cut the tires hard to the side or the rails will just cause them to slide along the rail. They won't climb up unless they face them at almost a right angle.  It is not intuitly obvious to someone to do that. So perhaps he tried to move to the side and the tirse just slid along the rails and he felt he was trapped (stuck) and so chose to evacuate the truck for his safety. 

[Euclid]

Electroliner 1935,

You make very good points.  Say the truck had its right front tire against the inside of the right rail.  If that were the case, I assume that the left front tire would have been outside of the left rail.  Now say the first impulse of the driver was to drive off the tracks to the right.  The right tire would not have climbed the inside of the right rail with the tire right against the rail. 

At that point, the driver might have panicked and thought it was impossible to get off the track.  If he would have changed is plan to drive off the left side, and cut his wheels hard to the left, the right front wheel would have had a much better chance of climbing the left rail.  But the driver may not have thought about the fact that getting off to the left would work when getting off to the right did not. 

I think the driver tried to get the truck off of the track, but failed.  He found that the truck was indeed STUCK on the track.  They say that the train was in sight at that point.  Let’s see the locomotive video.  The truck had its lights on high beam.  Let’s see if the video shows the truck jerking and bouncing as the driver struggled to get it to climb over the rail. 

[Deggesty]

BaltACD

Truck driver had previous indicents with law

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Metrolink-California-Train-Crash-Derailment-NTSB-Ventura-County-294015831.html

 

Balt, I would check my keyboard if I were you. I do know what you had in your mind. 

[blue streak 1]

BaltACD

Truck driver had previous indicents with law

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Metrolink-California-Train-Crash-Derailment-NTSB-Ventura-County-294015831.html

 

A very telling fact if true.  6 accidents in 7 years at this crossing.  Something needs changing. If vehicles are turnings too soon K rails would mostly stop that.  But there definitely needs other changes as well.

Maybe the FHWA needs changing some standards for this type of crossing.

 

[Euclid]

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-82918449/

From the article, my emphasis in red:

“The location of the crash spotlighted a massive, costly backlog of overpass projects intended to separate rail and street traffic. The crossing near 5th and Rice, on a straight stretch of track where trains travel at top speeds, has a history of deadly accidents and is ranked among the state's two dozen most dangerous.

Federal Railroad Administration records show that since 1976, the crossing had 13 major accidents before Tuesday's crash, 11 of which involved vehicles that either stalled in the crossing or had become trapped by the gates.

Darren Kettle, executive director of the Ventura County Transportation Commission, said a $30-million to $35-million grade separation project has been proposed for the Rice Avenue crossing for 15 to 20 years.”

[MikeF90]

blue streak 1

6 accidents in 7 years at this crossing.  Something needs changing. If vehicles are turnings too soon K rails would mostly stop that.  But there definitely needs other changes as well.

I'm finding that statement hard to agree with. Looking at the street view https://goo.gl/maps/3ZXjl confirms my recollection that this area is very flat with few visual obstructions. If the driver is turning right, how could he miss hitting the crossing gate and the beefy light bar mast? Right turn from the left lane?

Left unsaid by the generalizations about "six / twelve / many accidents have happened there" are other critical details such as driver impairment or fog. No reports of the latter but the former remains to be determined.

IMO since the driver has a valid CDL he probably has at least average driving skills; agricultural communities here are known for being 'demolition derbies' featuring unlicensed drivers and poorly maintained vehicles.

[tree68]

I'm sure the accident details are available somewhere - and as Mike says, that information would be telling.

If all of the incidents share a common thread it would point to a singular shortcoming in the crossing, one that could likely be dealt with through some engineering process.

If, on the other hand, they're all different (to take the polar opposite situation), then that grade separation project (for which the price tag has likely doubled by now) is due.  It sounded like they had major plans for the entire area.

As for fog - I'm not sure about Oxnard, but a little further  up the coast fog is a way of life.  We called it "Vandenfog" at Vandenberg AFB.

I'm thinking the crossing is basically an accident waiting to happen, with plenty of possibilities for drivers to make mistakes.  Short of grade separation, I suspect there is no one (or few) solution.

[mudchicken]

zardoz

What's up with all these derailments lately? It sure seems like the cars are causing so many problems. Since when did road vehicles become so dangerous to trains?

Perhaps the front end of locomotives and cabcars need a different design so these vehicles do not become involved with the train's running gear. The plow-shaped pilot used to be sufficient to deflect a struck object. I wonder what has changed lately; or is it just coincidence?

 

How do you up-armor a Jordan Spreader?

[petitnj]

I know the investigators mean well, but here we have a poor driver, lost in the dark on an unfamiliar road, who has no idea where he is. What is there to learn? They will discover that trucks and trains don't mix. Hopefully, all of MetroRail's data is intact; otherwise, the prosecution will claim a cover up and put a bad driver back on the road. Drunk driving should end your driving career -- permanently. 

[tree68]

petitnj

I know the investigators mean well, but here we have a poor driver, lost in the dark on an unfamiliar road, who has no idea where he is. What is there to learn?

Barriers at the side of the road (a la guardrails) are obviously out - the trains still have to get through.  

Is there some visual or physical clue (aside from the total lack of road and the existence of railroad tracks) that could be introduced so those people who are blindly following their GPS, or are simply unfamiliar with the area, as this driver apparently was, would be made aware of their mistake before they're stuck on the rails?

That's really kind of a rhetorical question.  If such a reminder could be introduced, people would either ignore it or otherwise not heed it.

I'm not even sure that the crossing occupation sensor suggested in another thread would have made a difference, unless the vehicle was in the crossing before the train left the Oxnard station and started accelerating.  Sounds like it was already up to speed by the time it hit the curve.

[Buxtehude]

Reuters reports that the driver was released from custody last night and was not charged with any crime.  The reason?  He hired a smart lawyer, and the Ventura Prosecutor's Office wanted to wait until the entire "complex" investigation finished before they acted one way or the other.  He was found many blocks away, talking on his cell phone, and it's acknowledged that he drove 80 feet down the tracks, but he is now free to go wherever he wishes.  I'm sure the folks who were injured can appreciate the careful concern of Ventura County.

It was also discovered that the signal equipment was working correctly, the train blew his horn 12 seconds before contact, and pulled his emergency brake 8 second before impact.