Metrolink accident and derailment in Oxnard, Ca Febuary 24, 2015

[Buslist]

narig01

According to several news sources in the Los Angeles area a Metrolink train has been involved in an accident with a truck. 3 cars are on their sides and 30 people are resorted injured.

http://ksn.com/2015/02/24/metrolink-train-strikes-truck-in-southern-

For location information

http://www.vcstar.com/news/local-news/vehicle-hits-metrolink-train-in-oxnard

According to some reports the truck was on fire. Pictures show 3 of the passenger cars on their sides.

Rgds IGN

 

i'll try to get this link live.

 

http://abc7news.com/news/metrolink-train-strikes-truck-in-southern-california/532202/

[BaltACD]

I am guessing that Metro-link was operating with the cabcar in the lead?

[Firelock76]

It certainly looks like it, I don't see any sign of a locomotive, and the torn-up ground by one of the coaches would seem to indicate it was the lead unit, unless the coach off to the right with what looks like a slant-front was the lead unit.

Would like to see more information on this.  Apparantly a grade-crossing incident?

[vsmith]

The unit turned around is the lead cab end unit, this is one of the newest units with the slanted nose like a Genesis. This looks also to be the SAME intersection where an Amtrak train took out a semi trailer on camera a few years ago.

[Buslist]

Here's aerial video.

 

http://www.cbs8.com/story/28186441/metrolink-train-strikes-truck-in-southern-california#.VOygNpzRIM4.mailto

[Buslist]

Firelock76

It certainly looks like it, I don't see any sign of a locomotive, and the torn-up ground by one of the coaches would seem to indicate it was the lead unit, unless the coach off to the right with what looks like a slant-front was the lead unit.

Would like to see more information on this.  Apparantly a grade-crossing incident?

 

 

yes probably the cab car was leading as it was an inbound train. The "slant" front on the cab car is to incorporate CEM (crash energy management) design principles.

[rdamon]

Looks like they missed the sign ..

http://www.vcstar.com/news/local-news/vehicle-hits-metrolink-train-in-oxnard

[Electroliner 1935]

That is a picture thats worth the proverbial 1000 words. Exhibit A in any resulting trial. When will people learn that rule. Thanks for the post.

 

[narig01]

Here is CNN report with video.

http://www.cnn.com//2015/02/24/us/california-train-wreck/index.html

For those of you looking as to the actions of the cars, the video is overhead from the air. It shows various marks in the dirt of the path of what I would suspect is the lead car.

One of the other pictures shows the remnants of a van truck. Also one report stated it was a utility truck (?) . Looking at the pictures and video of the remnants of the truck a smaller truck NOT an 18 wheeler. I did not see anything that looked like a cab of a truck.

Three of the Metrolink cars are on their sides.The train was in push mode. Two of the overturned cars were the newer Hyundai Rotem cars (I think that is what their called). The third overturned car was one of the older Bombardier cars.

Rgds IGN

[tomikawaTT]

According to NBC the vehicle was a produce truck towing a trailer.  The driver "Attempted to flee, but was apprehended by the police."

Quick work by law enforcement.  The driver had better hope none of the injuries become fatalities or he really will be in for it.

Chuck

[schlimm]

Questions:  1.Is the intersecting road a busy one?  2. Speed of metrolink trains there?   

Comment:  If above are 'yes' and '55+mph,' needs grade separation.

[BaltACD]

Looking at the crossing and the parralell highway that the cross street has a traffic light to observe - there doesn't appear to be more than 2 automobile lengths between the railroad and the stop line for the street.  I see this kind of crossing way too frequently for my personal liking - it is an accident waiting to happen as they always do.

In this instance I hope none of the injuries are too serious.

[samfp1943]

[quote user="narig01"]Here is CNN report with video.

 http://www.cnn.com//2015/02/24/us/california-train-wreck/index.html

 
For those of you looking as to the actions of the cars, the video is overhead from the air. It shows various marks in the dirt of the path of what I would suspect is the lead car.

One of the other pictures shows the remnants of a van truck. Also one report stated it was a utility truck (?) . Looking at the pictures and video of the remnants of the truck a smaller truck NOT an 18 wheeler. I did not see anything that looked like a cab of a truck.

Three of the Metrolink cars are on their sides.The train was in push mode. Two of the overturned cars were the newer Hyundai Rotem cars (I think that is what their called). The third overturned car was one of the older Bombardier cars.

Rgds IGN

 

[/quote]

Just saw an udated report @ 10Am Central:  They are reporting 51 were transported from the scene, including the Engineer and Conductor; The driver of the truck hit at the crossing apparently tried to run from the sene but was captured by the police. The truck was destroyed by fire after it had exploded.

 

http://www.cnn.com//2015/02/24/us/california-train-wreck/index.html
[heated up the link previously provided.]

[wanswheel]

L.A. Times says the truck was already on fire before it was struck.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-california-trail-derails-30-injured-20150224-story.html

[Buxtehude]

But now their latest report said that only 28 of the 51 total number of passengers were injured, with 4 in critical condition, with the engineer as the most seriously injured, although they did not list his injuries or his present condition.  The conductor was also seriously injured.  Initial reports were that the truck was on fire before the train hit it, but now the officials are discounting that.  They also said that the train was traveling at its cruising speed of 79 MPH, but that the long stretch of straight track allowed the engineer to see the truck from a "great" distance away, so he had time to pull the emergency brake, etc.  I can imagine the poor engineer, having done everything he could to stop, just sitting there for however many seconds it took, watching the truck get closer and closer, and being able to do nothing.  

[Bruce Kelly]

I'm told that CNN's Jake Tapper will have a somewhat in-depth report today at 4pm EST.

[tree68]

From the published images, I conclude that the truck had a utility-style body on it and was towing a box-style trailer.

.  

The questions of the hour would be why the driver of the truck left it on the crossing, and where he actually was at the time of the collision.  He was apparently located a couple of miles from the scene.

By all indications, the engineer (or conductor, as reported in one story ) saw the situation fairly early - possibly because the trailer was on fire (as noted elsewhere).  The line of sight there (N 34.19715 W 119.14228) is fairly long.

 

[rcdrye]

On the CNN video, the Hyundai-Rotem cab car is the one on its side next to another H-R coach, also on its side.  The second car (bottom of screen) appears to be an older Bombardier coach.  The fourth coach and the locomotive are the upright ones.

[blue streak 1]

BaltACD

Looking at the crossing and the parralell highway that the cross street has a traffic light to observe - there doesn't appear to be more than 2 automobile lengths between the railroad and the stop line for the street.  I see this kind of crossing way too frequently for my personal liking - it is an accident waiting to happen as they always do.

 

Balt:  That is my feeling as well.  Do you keep a picture in mind of those crossings in your territories ?  Can imagine your pucker factor if an oil train reported going to hit a TT at one of those crossings. Worse still the report of a collision there.

These crossings are not easy to mitigate.  Florida DOT has replaced a few over Tri - Rail but they overpasses are massive.  Cannot imagine the cost.

This collision remines one of the nearly same lay out as the MNRR derailment.

[BaltACD]

blue streak 1

BaltACD

Looking at the crossing and the parralell highway that the cross street has a traffic light to observe - there doesn't appear to be more than 2 automobile lengths between the railroad and the stop line for the street.  I see this kind of crossing way too frequently for my personal liking - it is an accident waiting to happen as they always do.

 

 

 

 

Balt:  That is my feeling as well.  Do you keep a picture in mind of those crossings in your territories ?  Can imagine your pucker factor if an oil train reported going to hit a TT at one of those crossings. Worse still the report of a collision there.

These crossings are not easy to mitigate.  Florida DOT has replaced a few over Tri - Rail but they overpasses are massive.  Cannot imagine the cost.

This collision remines one of the nearly same lay out as the MNRR derailment.

 

I don't know why they don't put the STOP line for these type crossing/intersections on the far side of the railroad along with the attendent Red Light.  Anyone occupying the space between the railroad and the parralell street is guilty of running the red light.  Since municipalities are always looking for revenue sources, set up a red light camera to enforce the space.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

It is done that way in some places.  At 130th and Torrence, the CWI formerly paralleled Torrence Avenue about 100 feet to the east.  The stop light for westbound 130th St was placed short of the tracks and was timed to turn red about 5-10 seconds prior to the main intersection.

65th and Harlem in Summit is set up in a similar fashion.

[MikeF90]

rcdrye

On the CNN video, the Hyundai-Rotem cab car is the one on its side next to another H-R coach, also on its side.  The second car (bottom of screen) appears to be an older Bombardier coach.  The fourth coach and the locomotive are the upright ones.

This link from ABC News has a photo showing all of the cars and loco: http://abcnews.go.com/US/photos/train-collides-vehicle-southern-california-29184501/image-29184871 

The Rotem cab car was rotated back toward the pushing loco, showing the tremendous collision forces on the passenger cars - no wonder there are so many casualties. Surprisingly none of the cars shows much deformation.

Per a spokesperson at the noon (PST) briefing, another one will follow at about 4PM.

[Deggesty]

How many of us noticed that, according to one news report, the man was driving on the railroad track--and was stuck (high-centered?)?

[BaltACD]

Deggesty

How many of us noticed that, according to one news report, the man was driving on the railroad track--and was stuck (high-centered?)?

Haven't heard that particular report.

[ricktrains4824]

Deggesty

How many of us noticed that, according to one news report, the man was driving on the railroad track--and was stuck (high-centered?)?

Yep... I caught that. He "made a wrong turn and got stuck straddling the tracks". Case of "but my GPS said turn right!" (Or left.)?

Also, ABC reports that the conductor noticed him, and put the train into emergency.... Wouldn't that be the engineer? Unless the conductor was in the cab-car, and the engineer was riding the pushing locomotive.... But I don't quite trust that report now...... Sounding like typical report first, fact check later. A certain suspended news anchor comes to mind........ 

(Yes, I know, he made stuff up, but is this type of reporting any better?)

My question though, is why did he run away? Several news reports state the driver was found by police almost a mile away..... Scared? Or, thrown clear of crash and "wandered" away during the fire/rescue effort? 

[ricktrains4824]

CSSHEGEWISCH

It is done that way in some places.  At 130th and Torrence, the CWI formerly paralleled Torrence Avenue about 100 feet to the east.  The stop light for westbound 130th St was placed short of the tracks and was timed to turn red about 5-10 seconds prior to the main intersection.

65th and Harlem in Summit is set up in a similar fashion.

 

Yep, I have a couple in my area set up that same way, and a couple that when a train is approaching all sides go red, to clear any stopped traffic waiting to turn. They also have one where it is set like that, then an audible warning sounds, then parrellel road gets green, but a sign that reads "train approaching, no turns" lights up. The gates are timed a few seconds after the bell and lights activate. Neat feature. Of course, that line they run at restricted speed.... This crash, that line is much faster speed, and more frequent trains. The other sets in my area, lights behind the tracks and timed a few seconds ahead of intersection lights, parallel road gets green, but a no (right/left) turn arrow lights up when the crossing signals activate. A few of these crossings are slower speed, others are 45-55mph train speed, so, could get close calls. And one intersection, where the four way intersection has tracks cut through the middle diagonally. That is a cool intersection to see trains at! All traffic gets red lights, plus crossing flashers, plus bell. That line is a local short line though, so shorter trains, and resricted to no more than 35mph the whole line.... There, doing good at 25mph. But, definitely been some real close calls there, too. And, seen people follow the tracks, instead of the road!  Really unsure how that one happens.....

[blue streak 1]

EDIT  now appears he drove down track ?

 If I had been railfanning on this train would sue the driver only for actual damages paid to metrolink and $1M punatative damages.  Might that get attention of other scoff laws ?

If others wanted to join in the more the merrier.

[Deggesty]

this is the link that I read this morning. http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/24/us/california-train-wreck/index.html

On the NBC evening news just now, there was a report of the wreck--there was no report that the driver had turned on to the track in error, and was driving on it. The report gave the impression that he had started to cross the track.

Oh, well, the usual in-depth reporting. 

[narig01]

As of 530pmPST
According to news reports 50 people were on board the train. 38 people were transported to area hospitals. 4 were in critical condition, including the locomotive engineer who was described as being in the worst condition. The engineer is expected to survive.
The driver of the truck was found by police 1.4 miles from the wreck site disoriented. One Jose Alejandro Sanchez Ramirez. Mr Ramirez is from Yuma, Arizona and is in possessed a valid Arizona drivers license. Also found in the truck is what was described as various welding equipment. The truck is owned by a welding company in Arizona. Was described as being properly registered and insured. This afternoon or this evening when Mr Ramirez was released from the hospital he was taken into custody.
According to one released statement it appears Mr Ramirez made a right turn onto the railroad tracks. He was traveling south on S.Rice Ave and was attempting to turn right onto E 5th St and mistook the tracks for the street. The railroad tracks parallel E 5th St. Sunrise in Oxnard this morning was 632am PST.
There are NO fatalities reported in this wreck. Two news outlets said early on there had been a fatality. Earlier reports of the locomotive fuel having been spilled appear to be incorrect as several outlets reported the fire department as stating the locomotive fuel tanks were intact.

Comments.
The speculation is that the driver turned onto the tracks in error. In the dark. I would speculate that he confused the lines of the railroad crossing for the lines of E 5th St. Then after driving off the pavement his vehicle became trapped on the tracks.
Mr Ramirez appears to have an Arizona drivers license and I would think had to present valid documentation of his legal status as Arizona is being quite persistent on that issue. If not he could have very easily just gone to Winterhaven, Ca across the Colorado river in California if had not had proper documents.
I may be proven wrong on any of these comments. Time will tell.

Rgds IGN

[BaltACD]

Being a welding truck & trailer - I suspect there were bottles of acetelyene and oxygen on board that are what caused the fire when they were breached by the impact of the collision.

[ricktrains4824]

If, indeed, welders supplies were on board, that would, definitely, cause a fire... You, sir, maybe onto something there. 

[ACY Tom]

The TV reporting, as stated above, is pretty poor. 

The train "flew off the tracks."  FLEW?

The train struck the truck, "decimating it"?  Look up decimate.  Destroyed would be closer to the truth.  Incorrect use of decimate is a pet peeve of mine.

Tom

[BaltACD]

A more measured report -

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Metrolink-Train-Crash-Oxnard-Camarillo-Ventura-County-293835911.html

[Euclid]

I am exhausted by the torturous semantics of “Stuck on the tracks.” 

Apparently, the driver mistook the tracks for a road that he intended to enter.  He did not get “stuck” in terms of being high-centered on the crossing, or by being stopped by traffic.  Since he drove down the track 80 feet, I assume that the truck was not high-centered on the track as he drove.  Apparently, the train was in sight when the truck stopped on the track. 

Here is what we don’t know:  Whether or not the driver was unable to drive off of the track by climbing over the rails.  I think most people would attempt to do that unless the train was too close.  But the driver might have found it impossible to get the truck to climb off of the tracks.  I would call that being “stuck on the track.”  I cannot image how the NTSB is able to rule that out, as they apparently have. 

It is also possible that the driver never attempted to drive the truck off of the track by turning to one side or the other.  If that is the case, he did exactly what Operation Lifesaver tells drivers to do in that circumstance. 

[vsmith]

Unfortunately the only way to prevent something like this from happening is to separate the grades. Expensive but I suspect within a decade either the roads or the tracks here will either be on a flyover or entrenched. The way the roadway intersections and traffic signals are set up here on this stretch of 5th street, the risk of grade crossing incursions is never going to be eliminated as it is. This is what has happened in other places in SoCal where increased development and increased traffic has occured, and Oxnard/Camarillo is only going to continue to grow.

[Norm48327]

Rather than relying on the usually inaccurate media, I would like to see the cab video.

[BaltACD]

Norm48327

Rather than relying on the usually inaccurate media, I would like to see the cab video.

I suspect that may become available through clandestine channels after the NTSB gets fully into their investigation.

[Buslist]

vsmith

Unfortunately the only way to prevent something like this from happening is to separate the grades. Expensive but I suspect within a decade either the roads or the tracks here will either be on a flyover or entrenched. The way the roadway intersections and traffic signals are set up here on this stretch of 5th street, the risk of grade crossing incursions is never going to be eliminated as it is. This is what has happened in other places in SoCal where increased development and increased traffic has occured, and Oxnard/Camarillo is only going to continue to grow.

 

of course we had the case in the UK where an SUV came off the road on the incline to an overpass and ended up on the tracks derailing a train, no problem until the derailed train was in the path of an oncoming train in the other direction. So overpasses don't completely solve it all.

[DS4-4-1000]

Buslist

vsmithUnfortunately the only way to prevent something like this from happening is to separate the grades. Expensive but I suspect within a decade either the roads or the tracks here will either be on a flyover or entrenched. The way the roadway intersections and traffic signals are set up here on this stretch of 5th street, the risk of grade crossing incursions is never going to be eliminated as it is. This is what has happened in other places in SoCal where increased development and increased traffic has occured, and Oxnard/Camarillo is only going to continue to grow. of course we had the case in the UK where an SUV came off the road on the incline to an overpass and ended up on the tracks derailing a train, no problem until the derailed train was in the path of an oncoming train in the other direction. So overpasses don't completely solve it all.

And a similar incident occurred recently in Texas involving a Prison Bus ending up on the tracks at a highway overpass.

[zardoz]

What's up with all these derailments lately? It sure seems like the cars are causing so many problems. Since when did road vehicles become so dangerous to trains?

Perhaps the front end of locomotives and cabcars need a different design so these vehicles do not become involved with the train's running gear. The plow-shaped pilot used to be sufficient to deflect a struck object. I wonder what has changed lately; or is it just coincidence?

[Firelock76]

I'm not so sure anything's changed, except we're in what's been called a "24 Hour News Cycle" nowadays. Local incidents and accidents that may have gone unreported by the national media as recently as 25 years ago now get covered as they've got to fill all that air time with SOMETHING.

Throw the internet into the mix and then there's even more coverage.

Considering that it's no mystery why an incident that used to be strictly local now goes national.

[tree68]

zardoz

What's up with all these derailments lately? It sure seems like the cars are causing so many problems. Since when did road vehicles become so dangerous to trains?

Back in the 60's, a car hauler with a load of Ford Econoline vans all prettied up for "Wynn's Frictionproofing" took a wrong turn and high centered on a crossing in Milford, MI.  Of course, a train came along and hit it (I have no idea of the time frame, all I recall is the aftermath).

Nowadays, that probably would have made the news cycle.

Back then, it probably didn't rate a column inch or two in the Detroit Free Press, or Detroit News.

Of course, there was no explosion or other devestation.  Just a bunch of red and yellow vans scattered around.

That crossing (Liberty Street) has been closed for years, although there is talk of putting a pedestrian tunnel there.

[MikeF90]

Per the above nbclosangeles post, the truck driver's lawyer stated that "He does not know how or why the truck he was driving stopped on the tracks ..."

Hmmm. I would have noticed, say within one car length, the SEVERELY ROUGH RIDE from being on railroad ties spaced two feet apart.  Maybe not in a 1968 Cadillac El Dorado, but certainly in a Ford F-450.  Any experienced railroad tie drivers care to comment?

[Deggesty]

I am not sure if having one such ride qualifies me as a railroad tie driver, but one midnight when I left work I was in a fog dense enough for me to miss a right-hand turn that I knew I had to make to get home. Knowing that the street I was on merged with another street that was at a right angle to the one I should have turned on to, I kept going until I thought I had reached the point at which I was to make a sharp right turn. However, I soon knew, from the bump-bump-bump that I was on the railroad that pararelled the street I thought I was turning on. Had I kept on, I would have reached the street I had missed. However, I thought better of that, and backed up until I was on pavement--and made it home safely from there.

 

Do I miss spel Czech! After posting, I saw a spelling error--and found several more when I came back to correct that one.

[samfp1943]

MikeF90

Per the above nbclosangeles post, the truck driver's lawyer stated that "He does not know how or why the truck he was driving stopped on the tracks ..."

Hmmm. I would have noticed, say within one car length, the SEVERELY ROUGH RIDE from being on railroad ties spaced two feet apart.  Maybe not in a 1968 Cadillac El Dorado, but certainly in a Ford F-450.  Any experienced railroad tie drivers care to comment?

 

Or, MikeF90;

You might have had a situation line the one pictured on this link (?) @ http://www.wctrib.com/content/train-stops-brainerd-moments-it-would-have-hit-truck

 Maybe, The BNSF engineer in Brainerd,MN was going slow enoght to stop for the truck on his tracks(?)   Or then you have one like the one here in Wichita this day when the BNSF train clipped a truck on the tracks(?)  See @ http://www.knssradio.com/Train-Clips-Semi-Truck-in-S-Wichita/21014172

Could it also be part of the problem that "Driver Training", and an ability to      read, and understand signs in English has gone away,,lately?  

 

[Deggesty]

Sam, are you sure that the driver comprehends English?

[BaltACD]

Truck driver had previous indicents with law

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Metrolink-California-Train-Crash-Derailment-NTSB-Ventura-County-294015831.html

[Euclid]

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-82911097/

Quote from the article:

 

“Why was that truck there? And once it was there, why did it not move?” he said.

Investigators, he said, “want to learn anything that we can from his perspective to help explain how that vehicle ended up driving down that railroad track.”

Oxnard police initially said Sanchez-Ramirez was attempting to turn his 2005 Ford F-450 onto 5th Street at Rice Avenue when he instead pulled onto the railroad tracks and became stuck. The truck was pulling a trailer carrying welding tools and other equipment.

At a news conference Wednesday, the driver’s attorney, Ron Bamieh, said his client did his utmost to move his truck from the path of the oncoming train. "That’s all this was ... an accident," he said.

Sanchez-Ramirez, his attorney said, called his son after the crash so that he could explain to police in English what his father was doing and how he ended up at the crash site.

Bamieh said Wednesday the truck "could go forward on the tracks, but it couldn't get off the tracks."

Sanchez-Ramirez hit his high beams, his lawyer said, and even tried to push his truck out of the way.

"He was then forced to flee to save his own life," Bamieh said.

Bamieh said Sanchez-Ramirez had a flip phone -- with no digital maps. He was relying on a printed-out online map and was in the area Tuesday morning only to find the route he would take for a meeting on Wednesday for his job, his attorney said.

--------------------------------------------------

It seems odd the way the officials are releasing the information.  Why the big mystery about the reason the driver drove the truck onto the tracks?  The police say he mistook the tracks for a parallel road he was intending to turn onto.  That same thing has happen before at that crossing, causing another train collision. Driving onto the tracks by mistake sure seems like the most plausible explanation.  Here is an idea.  Why not ask the driver why he drove on the tracks? 

The investigators act like there was some big conspiracy to wreck the train because they insist that the truck was not STUCK on the tracks.  It may not have been stuck from moving forward or backward.  But might it have been STUCK in terms of its ability to move off the track sideways? The official insistence that the truck was not stuck suggests that the driver should have simply moved out of the way.  

You could easily drive a truck like that over the tracks without any crossing.  But after entering the tracks parallel to them, getting the truck to climb the rail lengthwise to move off the track could present problems.  With the truck in a heap several hundred feet from the point of impact, how do the investigators know that the truck could have been simply driven off of the track?    

[Electroliner 1935]

To drive off a track, one has to cut the tires hard to the side or the rails will just cause them to slide along the rail. They won't climb up unless they face them at almost a right angle.  It is not intuitly obvious to someone to do that. So perhaps he tried to move to the side and the tirse just slid along the rails and he felt he was trapped (stuck) and so chose to evacuate the truck for his safety. 

[Euclid]

Electroliner 1935,

You make very good points.  Say the truck had its right front tire against the inside of the right rail.  If that were the case, I assume that the left front tire would have been outside of the left rail.  Now say the first impulse of the driver was to drive off the tracks to the right.  The right tire would not have climbed the inside of the right rail with the tire right against the rail. 

At that point, the driver might have panicked and thought it was impossible to get off the track.  If he would have changed is plan to drive off the left side, and cut his wheels hard to the left, the right front wheel would have had a much better chance of climbing the left rail.  But the driver may not have thought about the fact that getting off to the left would work when getting off to the right did not. 

I think the driver tried to get the truck off of the track, but failed.  He found that the truck was indeed STUCK on the track.  They say that the train was in sight at that point.  Let’s see the locomotive video.  The truck had its lights on high beam.  Let’s see if the video shows the truck jerking and bouncing as the driver struggled to get it to climb over the rail. 

[Deggesty]

BaltACD

Truck driver had previous indicents with law

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Metrolink-California-Train-Crash-Derailment-NTSB-Ventura-County-294015831.html

 

Balt, I would check my keyboard if I were you. I do know what you had in your mind. 

[blue streak 1]

BaltACD

Truck driver had previous indicents with law

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Metrolink-California-Train-Crash-Derailment-NTSB-Ventura-County-294015831.html

 

A very telling fact if true.  6 accidents in 7 years at this crossing.  Something needs changing. If vehicles are turnings too soon K rails would mostly stop that.  But there definitely needs other changes as well.

Maybe the FHWA needs changing some standards for this type of crossing.

 

[Euclid]

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-82918449/

From the article, my emphasis in red:

“The location of the crash spotlighted a massive, costly backlog of overpass projects intended to separate rail and street traffic. The crossing near 5th and Rice, on a straight stretch of track where trains travel at top speeds, has a history of deadly accidents and is ranked among the state's two dozen most dangerous.

Federal Railroad Administration records show that since 1976, the crossing had 13 major accidents before Tuesday's crash, 11 of which involved vehicles that either stalled in the crossing or had become trapped by the gates.

Darren Kettle, executive director of the Ventura County Transportation Commission, said a $30-million to $35-million grade separation project has been proposed for the Rice Avenue crossing for 15 to 20 years.”

[MikeF90]

blue streak 1

6 accidents in 7 years at this crossing.  Something needs changing. If vehicles are turnings too soon K rails would mostly stop that.  But there definitely needs other changes as well.

I'm finding that statement hard to agree with. Looking at the street view https://goo.gl/maps/3ZXjl confirms my recollection that this area is very flat with few visual obstructions. If the driver is turning right, how could he miss hitting the crossing gate and the beefy light bar mast? Right turn from the left lane?

Left unsaid by the generalizations about "six / twelve / many accidents have happened there" are other critical details such as driver impairment or fog. No reports of the latter but the former remains to be determined.

IMO since the driver has a valid CDL he probably has at least average driving skills; agricultural communities here are known for being 'demolition derbies' featuring unlicensed drivers and poorly maintained vehicles.

[tree68]

I'm sure the accident details are available somewhere - and as Mike says, that information would be telling.

If all of the incidents share a common thread it would point to a singular shortcoming in the crossing, one that could likely be dealt with through some engineering process.

If, on the other hand, they're all different (to take the polar opposite situation), then that grade separation project (for which the price tag has likely doubled by now) is due.  It sounded like they had major plans for the entire area.

As for fog - I'm not sure about Oxnard, but a little further  up the coast fog is a way of life.  We called it "Vandenfog" at Vandenberg AFB.

I'm thinking the crossing is basically an accident waiting to happen, with plenty of possibilities for drivers to make mistakes.  Short of grade separation, I suspect there is no one (or few) solution.

[mudchicken]

zardoz

What's up with all these derailments lately? It sure seems like the cars are causing so many problems. Since when did road vehicles become so dangerous to trains?

Perhaps the front end of locomotives and cabcars need a different design so these vehicles do not become involved with the train's running gear. The plow-shaped pilot used to be sufficient to deflect a struck object. I wonder what has changed lately; or is it just coincidence?

 

How do you up-armor a Jordan Spreader?

[petitnj]

I know the investigators mean well, but here we have a poor driver, lost in the dark on an unfamiliar road, who has no idea where he is. What is there to learn? They will discover that trucks and trains don't mix. Hopefully, all of MetroRail's data is intact; otherwise, the prosecution will claim a cover up and put a bad driver back on the road. Drunk driving should end your driving career -- permanently. 

[tree68]

petitnj

I know the investigators mean well, but here we have a poor driver, lost in the dark on an unfamiliar road, who has no idea where he is. What is there to learn?

Barriers at the side of the road (a la guardrails) are obviously out - the trains still have to get through.  

Is there some visual or physical clue (aside from the total lack of road and the existence of railroad tracks) that could be introduced so those people who are blindly following their GPS, or are simply unfamiliar with the area, as this driver apparently was, would be made aware of their mistake before they're stuck on the rails?

That's really kind of a rhetorical question.  If such a reminder could be introduced, people would either ignore it or otherwise not heed it.

I'm not even sure that the crossing occupation sensor suggested in another thread would have made a difference, unless the vehicle was in the crossing before the train left the Oxnard station and started accelerating.  Sounds like it was already up to speed by the time it hit the curve.

[Buxtehude]

Reuters reports that the driver was released from custody last night and was not charged with any crime.  The reason?  He hired a smart lawyer, and the Ventura Prosecutor's Office wanted to wait until the entire "complex" investigation finished before they acted one way or the other.  He was found many blocks away, talking on his cell phone, and it's acknowledged that he drove 80 feet down the tracks, but he is now free to go wherever he wishes.  I'm sure the folks who were injured can appreciate the careful concern of Ventura County.

It was also discovered that the signal equipment was working correctly, the train blew his horn 12 seconds before contact, and pulled his emergency brake 8 second before impact.

 

 

[edblysard]

So you are suggesting that he is a bad person because he is excersizing his constitutional right to hire an attorney, and a "smart" one at that?

So he sould only be allowed to hire a dumb attorney, or he shouldn't have the right in the first place?

On ABC last night, on of the spokesmen for the PD stated the driver made first contact with them,not the other way around, he went looking for a cop.

What if he was doing what OLS teaches, abandon the car, walk in the direction of the train and call 911?

 

[BaltACD]

English is not the drivers first language.  I read in one of the articles, he has trouble communicating in English.  He called his son to act as a interperter with his initial dealings with the police.

[Euclid]

The driver apparently made a mistake and drove onto the tracks when he intended to turn onto a cross street.  He will  probably get a ticket for traffic violation.  He won't go to prison.  I assume that these news sources would have shouted it from the mountaintop if he were found to be drunk.  Thus he was not. 

He became stalled on the tracks and did exactly what Operation Lifesaver tells drivers to do.  They tell drivers to make no attempt to extricate your stalled vehicle.  Just leave it where it is and run for safety.  In this case, I think the driver even did make some attempt to extricate the vehicle and get it into the clear.  The driver did contact the police about the situation exactly as he was supposed to do.  

The distance from the crossing where the driver was found is a major RED HERRING.  The driver did exaclty what he was supposed to do. 

[Paul of Covington]

   If I may add a little more conjecture to the conjecturing going on ....

   It has been suggested that the driver may have been lost or confused in the dark when he turned onto the track.    I have come upon many intersections that are not easy to make out in the dark.   They are poorly lit, and you have headlights of other cars and bright lights in adjacent parking lots or brightly lit signs that make it hard to see the road.    Maybe a few bright streetlights might be helpful at this crossing.

[erikem]

Buxtehude

Reuters reports that the driver was released from custody last night and was not charged with any crime.  The reason?  He hired a smart lawyer...

 

I'd wonder if it was his company had hired the "smart lawyer" as the company would likely be the deep pockets in the likely lawsuits.

[K. P. Harrier]

Speaking of the Devil

Concerning the Tuesday, February 24, 2015 train wreck that is the subject of this thread, the cab car that collided with the truck at 79 M.P.H. was Metrolink No. 645.  The locomotive pushing was Metrolink 870.

A little over a week earlier, on Sunday, February 15, 2015, both the SAME 870 (leading this time) and 645 (trailing) passed the State College Blvd. grade crossing (near Disneyland and where the California Angels play) in Anaheim on Metrolink’s Los Angeles-Oceanside line.

A heavy telephoto of the above train at the Anaheim stop, by Anaheim Stadium:  The overhead bridge is the north-south 57 Freeway.

K.P. was at the Anaheim grade crossing photographing the site of ANOTHER grade crossing collision that took place there over 49 years earlier.  How ironic that the train that I photographed (power and cab car) was involved in the Oxnard disaster of this thread just 9 days later!

[ORNHOO]

In situations like this (Rail line parallel to busy road, intersection with cross street protected by crossing arms) I wonder if it would be useful to install crossing arms across the rail line. These would be triggered by the same track circuitry as the existing crossing gates, but work in the opposite direction (Road gate closes=Rail gate opens...train passes through...Road gate opens=Rail gate closes).

[erikem]

Hmmm, interesting idea and it makes sense.

[M636C]

ORNHOO

In situations like this (Rail line parallel to busy road, intersection with cross street protected by crossing arms) I wonder if it would be useful to install crossing arms across the rail line. These would be triggered by the same track circuitry as the existing crossing gates, but work in the opposite direction (Road gate closes=Rail gate opens...train passes through...Road gate opens=Rail gate closes).

 

A number of British "Level Crossings" had gates which swung through 90 degrees, closing across the road for passage of a train and closing off the tracks when open for road traffic. In Britain the railways are generally fenced off for safety, and this feature of the crossing gates continued this idea.

On lesser used lines, these were manually operated, but on main lines they were power operated, but generally in a location where the gate operator could observe the road traffic. A heavy wood and steel gate is not as forgiving as a boom intended to break off on impact.

On the other hand, perhaps motorists would think twice about trying to beat a gate which could write off their vehicle, independent of the effect of any approaching train.

On double track lines there would have been four gates, each swinging through 90 degrees, but on single track lines, one gate each side would suffice.

The gates were painted white with a red circle in the centre with rai crossing markings.

A modern day equivalent could be a boom that swung through 90 degrees in a horizontal plane. Even this might discourage motorists from crossing at the last minute since the boom always remains at the closed height, greatly reducing the opportunity to avoid the boom. If four booms were used closing off the tracks in both directions and both lanes of the road (as appropriate) the chances of entering the crossing at the wrong time would be reduced.

There might be more boom impact incidents initially, but as people became familiar with the new arrangements, safety should be increased.

M636C

[tree68]

erikem

Hmmm, interesting idea and it makes sense. 

I agree - and it wouldn't take an special measures (beyond the equipment itself) to do so.  One set of gates goes down, the other goes up. All the circuitry is already in place - just a couple more relays. 

I would opine that the gates should somehow appear different, at least from the road side.  Maybe black and yellow vs red and white.  That way motorists would (hopefully) see them as different from crossing gates.  

They should also not contain any lights, except possibly facing oncoming trains as an indication that the gate is down.

A down side of this is crossing failures.  Currently, if crossing warning equipment fails, the worst that can happen to a train (other than hitting a vehicle) is having to stop and flag.  This option would completely block the crossing.

I should note that this should not be a universal installation.  It should be reserved for those places that have a history of people turning on to the tracks, which is going to be chiefly where there are parallel roads.  Your run-of-the-mill 90 degree road crossing shouldn't need it.  Anyone who turns onto the tracks there probably meant to.

[samfp1943]

NICE JOB !  KP       Fortituous Catch!

   

[zugmann]

tree68

A down side of this is crossing failures. Currently, if crossing warning equipment fails, the worst that can happen to a train (other than hitting a vehicle) is having to stop and flag. This option would completely block the crossing.

 

Wouldn't be a big deal.  Just install a quick release mechanism for the gate itself so a crew member can detach it and toss it off to the side if needed.

 

I was wondering if special markings, paint and/or imbedded road reflectors would help as well at xings near intersections.

[blue streak 1]

zugmann

I was wondering if special markings, paint and/or imbedded road reflectors would help as well at xings near intersections.

 

 

ZUG:  You are on the right track.  Airport runways have inbedded high intensity centerline lights that are directional.  These lights  could only point in the direction of the roadway and not into engineer's  eyes. 

A major advantage is that snow plows cannot tear them out of the ground.  Sometimes the  snow and ice will obscure them temporarily but the heat of the light quickly melts snow and it drains down into the ground. 

Not only can they deliniate the side of the roadway but could be installed in the roadway crossing panels inside the guage of the  rails.

One advantage is that they are being manufactured now.

 

 

[tree68]

zugmann

I was wondering if special markings, paint and/or imbedded road reflectors would help as well at xings near intersections.

I had about the same thought.  However, short of the in-pavement lights, or some sort of texture, I'm not sure pavement markings alone would make a big difference.  People rarely pay much attention to what's already there.  

For the cost of some paint and some pavement grooving, though, it might be enough to make a difference.  

The key point is looking at exactly how often it happens, and dealing with the problem areas.  These probably aren't a one size fits all solutions.

 

[mudchicken]

The problem is less railroad and more MUTCD. White gate arm or heavy (16") white stripe throws the highway bubbas for a loop. (White being a relatively neutral color on the railroad side of the fence and smashboards not being out of the railroad vocabulary that long. Smashboards would cause "issues" in Class 3 track and up)....

In Los Angeles on the BNSF side, Rosecrans & Marquardt [Santa Fe Springs/ La Mirada] has been a constant headache for as long as I can seem to remember with continual new and creative stooopid people tricks.

 

[erikem]

FWIW, the LA Times website has an article on efforts to improve grade crossing safety. A couple of take-aways: The costs for a grade separations range from $20 million to $100 million. Four quadrant crossing gates have "99 per cent fewer collisions" than unprotected crossings, while dual quadrant gates have "81 per cent fewer collisons". The article did mention that several of the four quadrant gaes have trapped vehicle detectors and raise the appropriate gate to let the vehicle out.

[MikeF90]

mudchicken

In Los Angeles on the BNSF side, Rosecrans & Marquardt [Santa Fe Springs/ La Mirada] has been a constant headache for as long as I can seem to remember with continual new and creative stooopid people tricks.

Stoopid people tricks indeed! With the high frequency, loud (no QZ) rail traffic it's hard to understand why some drivers Just Don't Get It.

Looks like Metro has 'rebooted' this grade separation project long awaiting funding:

http://media.metro.net/projects_studies/regionalrail/factsheet_rosecransmarquardt_2015-0224.pdf

http://www.whittierdailynews.com/general-news/20141021/la-mirada-santa-fe-springs-officials-celebrate-opening-of-valley-view-railroad-underpass

In the meantime they redid the raised median on Rosecrans last year but did Not put in four-quadrant gates.

Now, back to topic .....

[K. P. Harrier]

Concerning this statement by mudchicken:

mudchicken

In Los Angeles on the BNSF side, Rosecrans & Marquardt [Santa Fe Springs/ La Mirada] has been a constant headache for as long as I can seem to remember with continual new and creative stooopid people tricks.

A number of months ago MikeF90 had somehow alerted me to the Rosecrans and Marquardt Avenues grade crossing in Santa Fe Springs, CA where the BNSF Transcon diagonally goes through the intersection.  Because of him a September 1, 2014 visit to the site was made.

Personally, I found the grade crossing semi-well protected, but the red flashing lights visually blocked in at least one area (southbound on Marquardt Ave.).

Unfortunately, NO trains came while I was present and taking many photos.  However, returning to my vehicle a couple of blocks away, a San Diego bound Amtrak passed.  The crossing gate jumped out with flares to the middle of the southbound lanes and protected the crossing!
 

Seriously, I found the crossing just needing a visual clear path to that flasher and maybe center of the street flashers as well.

Concerning the Oxnard, CA location of the collision that this thread IS about, I’ve studied aerials and I find no reasonable reason why the vehicle that was struck was actually on the tracks.  When I have some free time it is hoped a visit to the Oxnard site can be made.  If I do, I’ll post photos slanted towards any problems with the grade crossing itself, but I very, very seriously doubt I’ll find much.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

K.P. - I see several streetlights in your photos above.  Are there any at the Oxnard crossing ?

- Paul North.

[tree68]

Paul_D_North_Jr

K.P. - I see several streetlights in your photos above.  Are there any at the Oxnard crossing ?

- Paul North.

I'm not KP, but I was curious, so I did some looking.  Don't know if this street view will load up properly:Oxnard Crossing

I see one street light at the crossing, on the east side of the street.  There are more up the street, looking north.

This fellow is hardly the first to take the tracks instead of the street.  In recent years that's been blamed on more than a few occasions on blindly following a GPS.  No GPS has been mentioned in any reports so far, so it's likely we can rule that option out.

[K. P. Harrier]

Paul D. North Jr. (3-1):

Greetings, Paul.  It has been a while since we’ve exchanged thoughts.

In the below aerial link of 5th Street and Rice Ave. in Oxnard (CA), I see at least two stoplights with common lights that light up the intersection.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Oxnard,+CA/@34.1969819,-119.1422211,99m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x80e84de61325679f:0x598049c0fa5eb645

There may or may not be more, but an onsite inspection will say for sure.

Best,

K.P.

[Electroliner 1935]

Each crossing shows four street lights, one on each taffic signal mast of which there are four, one on each quadrent. How bright is another question but the intersections are definitely lit.

[Euclid]

I recall one of the news reports said that the driver was not relying on, or following GPS, but rather, was only following a printed-out computer map.

[Euclid]

Apparently no charges will be filed, not even a traffic violation.  The police stubbornly insist  that the driver never contacted them.  Yet they fail to mention that the driver could not speak English well, so he contacted his son to relay the message to the police.  So the police were contacted about the emergency situation at the crossing.

The official instructions to drivers in stalled vehicle situations is to immediately exit the vehicle and seek shelter in case of a train collision.  There is not necessarily time to contact anybody who could prevent a crash if a crash is imminent.   

It seems as though the media, and the official information presented, have been way over the top with their demonization of the driver.  It sounds like the driver did exactly what he was supposed to do from start to finish, except for making a traffic mistake at a crossing that is now being characterized as an “accident waiting to happen.”

[vsmith]

FYI there was ANOTHER accident along the SAME stretch of track AGAIN this weekend. Car this time. No injuries besides a totaled car and the scratched paint on the Amtrak. http://www.keyt.com/news/a-train-crashes-into-a-vehicle-in-camarillo/31559474

[tree68]

Same highway, too (CA34).  The location is similar in layout: N 34.20546 W 119.04111

[ORNHOO]

It is apparently not known at his time why the car was on the tracks at Camarillo, but I would like to point out that improved lighting/signage/etc. would only deter accidental intrusions onto the right of way, crossing arms across the rail line would also deter deliberate vehicular trespass.

[blue streak 1]

---

confirmed report engineer died of injuries.  If so time to charge truck driver with involuntary manslaughter.

[Norm48327]

KABC Los Angeles is reporting he died.

[narig01]

Sadly the Locomotive Engineer has died from his injuries. http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2015/03/metrolink-engineer-dies-one-week-after-grade-crossing-collision-derailment Regards IGN

[AgentKid]

narig01

Sadly the Locomotive Engineer has died from his injuries.

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2015/03/metrolink-engineer-dies-one-week-after-grade-crossing-collision-derailment

Regards IGN

Heated up the link.

Bruce

 

[wanswheel]

Glenn William Steele, #1

http://blet20.org/members/seniority/2015/cs3

[K. P. Harrier]

The Los Angeles Times report of the engineer's passing is FREE.  On the below article, scroll down to the text.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-20150303-story.html

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Euclid

[snipped - PDN.] . . . He became stalled on the tracks and did exactly what Operation Lifesaver tells drivers to do.  They tell drivers to make no attempt to extricate your stalled vehicle.  Just leave it where it is and run for safety.  In this case, I think the driver even did make some attempt to extricate the vehicle and get it into the clear.  The driver did contact the police about the situation exactly as he was supposed to do. . . .

Not sure this is the best thread to post this too, but it seems close enough:

Link to a news report published Dec. 14, 2014 about a school bus full of students getting "stuck" or "caught under" under the gate at a diagonal crossing at the intersection of Church and Chestsnut Sts. in Hazleton, PA.  "Authorities say the bus driver did the right thing by staying put . . . ".  Fortunately, this NS line is a branch, and the locals say the usual speed is about 10 MPH, so there really wasn't much danger to the bus and its children.    

http://wnep.com/2014/12/17/officials-check-railroad-crossing-safety/ 

- Paul North. 

[zugmann]

Looks like due to the angle, the bus ended up under the gate but was nowhere near the foul of the track (if I'm looking at the video right).  I'd assume the bus had to pull out that far to look up the tracks when the gates activated. 

 

[schlimm]

Over the past years, it's clear that many forum members reject the concept and cost of better rail crossing protection: "Darwin Award winners"  "Idiots"  "too expensive" etc.   But it is a two-edged sword, since it seems possible that railroad personnel need better protection from vehicles, whatever the cause of their being on the tracks.

[BaltACD]

schlimm

Over the past years, it's clear that many forum members reject the concept and cost of better rail crossing protection: "Darwin Award winners"  "Idiots"  "too expensive" etc.   But it is a two-edged sword, since it seems possible that railroad personnel need better protection from vehicles, whatever the cause of their being on the tracks.

Grade Separation is in the hands of governmental entities - they are the folks that believe it is too expensive to protect the voters that put them in office.

If the railroads could, they would close all grade crossings and end the problem tomorrow - they can't.  Today's carriers are actively working to close as many crossings as possible - on my carrier it is one of the things division level personnel are graded on for their bonus and advancement.

[Norm48327]

schlimm

Over the past years, it's clear that many forum members reject the concept and cost of better rail crossing protection: "Darwin Award winners"  "Idiots"  "too expensive" etc.   But it is a two-edged sword, since it seems possible that railroad personnel need better protection from vehicles, whatever the cause of their being on the tracks.

 

Disagree. There is always room for improvement. Whether the powers that be are willing to pay those costs is open to speculation.

There seems, however, an unwillingness on the part of some posters to acknowledge that others may have a valid opinion. Snarky comments only reinforce that image.

[Euclid]

Norm48327

 

schlimm

Over the past years, it's clear that many forum members reject the concept and cost of better rail crossing protection: "Darwin Award winners"  "Idiots"  "too expensive" etc.   But it is a two-edged sword, since it seems possible that railroad personnel need better protection from vehicles, whatever the cause of their being on the tracks.

 

 

 

 

Disagree. There is always room for improvement. Whether the powers that be are willing to pay those costs is open to speculation.

There seems, however, an unwillingness on the part of some posters to acknowledge that others may have a valid opinion. Snarky comments only reinforce that image.

 

The train is always in the right in a crossing collision.  Yet, no matter how much crossing protection is installed, collisions continue to occur.  While the collisions kill drivers, they also damage trains, injure or kill trainmen and passengers, and often cost money for settlements on behalf drivers despite the right of the train to pass.   Apparently nothing can completely prevent problem even though it is only a matter of controlling driver discretion. 

I believe that 150 years of this experience has left the industry frustrated and taking it personally as an affront on the part of drivers.   The frustration inspires monstrous science fiction grade crossing machines shouting warnings and death threats, or solid steel walls that rise up out of the roadway to completely seal off a crossing from any passage.  

Even though drivers can simply make a mistake, the industry’s bitterness over the perpetual crossing problem causes it to label grade crossing crash victims as “stupid.”  This allows the industry to justify the lack of a fix for the problem with the conclusion that, “You can’t fix stupid.” 

If you can’t fix the problem because drivers are stupid, then the only hope is to kill them all off.  That is the basis of the “Darwin Award.”   It refers nature weeding out the weak so only the strong survive, except in this case, it is nature weeding out the stupid.  So the Darwin Award is a celebration of the death of a crossing victim because they won’t breed and produce anymore stupid people.  It is the only solution in the minds of many.   

Adding more safety measures to crossings conflicts the Darwin solution to the grade crossing problem.  Added safety might preserve the stupid, and thus perpetuate the crossing problem. 

[zugmann]

Euclid

Even though drivers can simply make a mistake, the industry’s bitterness over the perpetual crossing problem causes it to label grade crossing crash victims as “stupid.” This allows the industry to justify the lack of a fix for the problem with the conclusion that, “You can’t fix stupid.”

 

Have a reference for that outlandish claim?

[schlimm]

Norm48327

 

 

schlimm

Over the past years, it's clear that many forum members reject the concept and cost of better rail crossing protection: "Darwin Award winners"  "Idiots"  "too expensive" etc.   But it is a two-edged sword, since it seems possible that railroad personnel need better protection from vehicles, whatever the cause of their being on the tracks.

 

 

 

 

Disagree. There is always room for improvement. Whether the powers that be are willing to pay those costs is open to speculation.

There seems, however, an unwillingness on the part of some posters to acknowledge that others may have a valid opinion. Snarky comments only reinforce that image.

 

Snarky?   Perhaps you should look up the defintion, because you misuse the term whenever  some state facts which you do not like.   Just within the hour, on the other current crossing thread another forum member described the victims of crossing accidents with a pejorative.

"Unfortantley there are idiots who will never respect grade crossings, and then wonder why they get into a collision. "

[tree68]

Euclid

Adding more safety measures to crossings conflicts the Darwin solution to the grade crossing problem.  Added safety might preserve the stupid, and thus perpetuate the crossing problem. 

We must remember the old saw about making things foolproof only increases the skill of the fools (or something like that).

And there is the phenomenon of diminishing returns.  As has been noted - no matter what the solution, someone will figure out a way to defeat it.  Thus adding increments of improved protection at some point costs more than accepting the risk.  This is a decision that local authorities moreso than the railroad have to make.  The ultimate railroad solution is simple - close the crossing.

A few examples to the contrary, the only true solution is no crossings at all.  I don't think anyone will dispute that.  The problem with that solution is expense and logistics.  In many cases, the cost of the proper solution is out of reach (actually or politically) of those who desire it, or the logistics (ie, tearing down businesses and homes, etc) are less palatable than living with things as they are. 

You can engineer out most mistakes - find a common denominator and figure out a way to prevent the offending behavior.  The idea of putting a notice on the gates noting that they are breakaway is an example of that, as is the idea of a movable barrier across the tracks, parallel with the road crossing as discussed earlier in this thread.

But it's hard to engineer out the person who cheats the interlocks or ignores the signs and warnings that 99.44% of the populace reacts properly to.  And that's the one that gets smacked at the crossing.

 

[schlimm]

BaltACD

 

 

schlimm

Over the past years, it's clear that many forum members reject the concept and cost of better rail crossing protection: "Darwin Award winners"  "Idiots"  "too expensive" etc.   But it is a two-edged sword, since it seems possible that railroad personnel need better protection from vehicles, whatever the cause of their being on the tracks.

 

 

Grade Separation is in the hands of governmental entities - they are the folks that believe it is too expensive to protect the voters that put them in office.

If the railroads could, they would close all grade crossings and end the problem tomorrow - they can't.  Today's carriers are actively working to close as many crossings as possible - on my carrier it is one of the things division level personnel are graded on for their bonus and advancement.

 

I agree.  Unfortunately, judging from the comments, some on this forum do not seem to want the rails or the governments to pay for any enhancements to crossing safety (grade separation, 4-quadrant, median barriers, etc.) which also provide safety benefits for locomotive engineers and on some lines, passengers.

[Norm48327]

schlimm

 

 

BaltACD

 

 

schlimm

Over the past years, it's clear that many forum members reject the concept and cost of better rail crossing protection: "Darwin Award winners"  "Idiots"  "too expensive" etc.   But it is a two-edged sword, since it seems possible that railroad personnel need better protection from vehicles, whatever the cause of their being on the tracks.

 

 

Grade Separation is in the hands of governmental entities - they are the folks that believe it is too expensive to protect the voters that put them in office.

If the railroads could, they would close all grade crossings and end the problem tomorrow - they can't.  Today's carriers are actively working to close as many crossings as possible - on my carrier it is one of the things division level personnel are graded on for their bonus and advancement.

 

 

 

 

I agree.  Unfortunately, judging from the comments, some on this forum do not seem to want the rails or the governments to pay for any enhancements to crossing safety (grade separation, 4-quadrant, median barriers, etc.) which also provide safety benefits for locomotive engineers and on some lines, passengers.

 

You keep shooting the messengers and ignoring the realities of the situation.

[schlimm]

Norm48327

 

 

schlimm

 

 

BaltACD

 

 

schlimm

Over the past years, it's clear that many forum members reject the concept and cost of better rail crossing protection: "Darwin Award winners"  "Idiots"  "too expensive" etc.   But it is a two-edged sword, since it seems possible that railroad personnel need better protection from vehicles, whatever the cause of their being on the tracks.

 

 

Grade Separation is in the hands of governmental entities - they are the folks that believe it is too expensive to protect the voters that put them in office.

If the railroads could, they would close all grade crossings and end the problem tomorrow - they can't.  Today's carriers are actively working to close as many crossings as possible - on my carrier it is one of the things division level personnel are graded on for their bonus and advancement.

 

 

 

 

I agree.  Unfortunately, judging from the comments, some on this forum do not seem to want the rails or the governments to pay for any enhancements to crossing safety (grade separation, 4-quadrant, median barriers, etc.) which also provide safety benefits for locomotive engineers and on some lines, passengers.

 

 

 

 

You keep shooting the messengers and ignoring the realities of the situation.

 

Your tangential posts make as little sense as your PM threats.   

[Euclid]

zugmann

 

Euclid

Even though drivers can simply make a mistake, the industry’s bitterness over the perpetual crossing problem causes it to label grade crossing crash victims as “stupid.” This allows the industry to justify the lack of a fix for the problem with the conclusion that, “You can’t fix stupid.” 

Have a reference for that outlandish claim?

 

I don’t have a verbatim reference for the claim.  But I have observed the general principle expressed hundreds of times.  It is expressed dozens of times in the comments following any grade crossing crash reported in the news.  I have seen it at least 100 times here on the forum.

And while not a verbatim reference, I find that the book, Metropolitan Corridor by John R. Stilgoe contains a chapter called “CROSSING.”  It is stunning the way this chapter goes into the grade crossing problem in the deepest terms imaginable.  Stilgoe captures the birth of the frustration of the railroads in their attempt to stop the exploding carnage when it began around 1900.  All of this puts into context the development leading to today’s cynical attitudes about drivers being morons, idiots, “you can’t fix stupid,” and the snarky Darwin Award.  

Mr. Stilgoe cuts right to the psychological heart of the crossing dilema with some of most insightful observations by railroaders and others close to the problem.  An example is the observation of an inverse relationship between the increase in crossing protection and the decrease in public heed to the increasing protection.  They attribute this to the fact that the public relies on the increasing protection, and therefore lowers their own wariness at crossings.  So the railroads put up flashing lights and heavy gates; and motorists drove past the flashing lights, busted through the gate, and got hit by the train. 

The public saw the amazing power of the railroads to control their trains, and became convinced that the alertness of the engineman, the efficacy of air brakes and signals also made grade crossings safe. 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

tree68

Paul_D_North_Jr

K.P. - I see several streetlights in your photos above.  Are there any at the Oxnard crossing ?

- Paul North.

I'm not KP, but I was curious, so I did some looking.  Don't know if this street view will load up properly:Oxnard Crossing

I see one street light at the crossing, on the east side of the street.  There are more up the street, looking north.

This fellow is hardly the first to take the tracks instead of the street.  In recent years that's been blamed on more than a few occasions on blindly following a GPS.  No GPS has been mentioned in any reports so far, so it's likely we can rule that option out.

Thanks, Larry (and others). 

The closest streetlight to the track and where this truck went wrong is over the northbound lanes of S. Rice St., about 50 ft. south of the track and parallel to it.  Important query: Was it working at all ? (let alone bright enough to illuminate the track) [You might be surprised how many streetlights are not working, at least around here.  It took me over 2 months to get repaired the 4 that were out of 7 at a major interchange - I-380 and PA 940.]  The next closest streetlight is over the westbound lanes of E. 5th St./ Calif. Hwy. 34, about 100 ft. from the track and about 200 ft. from where the truck got stuck, so I doubt if it was of much help (even if it was working).

A couple factors not mentioned yet: Note that the crossing itself is precast concrete panels - a different color, texture, and patttern from the rest of the street, but too narrow to look like another street.  Shouldn't have that raised a question in his mind ?   

Also, there are signals and gates on the center island of S. Rice St., as well as at both sides.  The gates are reflectorized as well, as is typical.  Didn't all that vertical and substantial hardware and reflectorized striping in the middle of the street and on both sides catch his eye, either ?

I suspect he was either impaired in some way (drugs, alcohol, medications, sleep deprivation, etc.), or else very distracted ("head in the cockpit" syndrome) from either a cell phone or trying to read and follow his directions, etc., to miss these rather obvious features of his location.  His 'situational awareness' evidently was about zero.

- Paul North.     

[zugmann]

Euclid

I don’t have a verbatim reference for the claim. But I have observed the general principle expressed hundreds of times. It is expressed dozens of times in the comments following any grade crossing crash reported in the news. I have seen it at least 100 times here on the forum.

 

None of us on the forum speak for railroads.  So you cannot make that claim.

 

[Euclid]

zugmann

 

Euclid

I don’t have a verbatim reference for the claim. But I have observed the general principle expressed hundreds of times. It is expressed dozens of times in the comments following any grade crossing crash reported in the news. I have seen it at least 100 times here on the forum.

None of us on the forum speak for railroads.  So you cannot make that claim.

Nothing I said depends on forum members officially speaking for the railroads.  But both railroaders and railfans express this general "Can't fix stupid" view on the forum all the time.  I will go further and say that that view is held only by railroaders and railfans. 

I have never encountered that view with the MUTCD, Operation Lifesaver, or the police, for example.  I recently talked to someone from OL for who told me he was appalled by the reaction of "foamers" (his term) to the driver killed in the Metro North crash.    

[zugmann]

Euclid

I will go further and say that that view is held only by railroaders and railfans.

 

...of this forum. 

 

A very small percentage.  I can probably count the number of RRers on this forum on 2 hands.  Not exactly a great sample size.

[narig01]

As to if the driver was impaired by alcohol or drugs. If that had been the case I would think he would still be in jail on a DUI charge. Yes he had been charged with DWI in the past that was 10 years ago. I think that the police will have obtained a blood sample at the hospital. He was described as being cooperative in various reports. Rgds IGN

[narig01]

Also I would remind people the time of the accident. 530am, about one hour before sunrise. This is a very bad time to try and maintain alertness.

[narig01]

Sorry bout this hit the wrong button. To continue. If you look from the street views of S Rice Av, one of the things that is not present is street lites. It would be dark to the intersection. Also immediately adjacent to the railroad tracks is a sound wall. I do not think this wall played a factor in this as the vehicle got stuck (I would think) several minutes before the train approached. Rgds. IGN

[blue streak 1]

Paul_D_North_Jr

The closest streetlight to the track and where this truck went wrong is over the northbound lanes of S. Rice St., about 50 ft. south of the track and parallel to it.  Important query: Was it working at all ? (let alone bright enough to illuminate the track)

- Paul North.     

 

 

PDN:  To make the street light problem even more confusing.  As found out to my surprize.  Not all the Mercury vapor and metal halide lights have the same brightness.  At one time a town was paying for a higher lumen out put lights and found out local utility was replacing burn outs with lower wattage.  The new LED street lights here are really directional with good output.

 

 

[erikem]

Paul_D_North_Jr

A couple factors not mentioned yet: Note that the crossing itself is precast concrete panels - a different color, texture, and patttern from the rest of the street, but too narrow to look like another street.  Shouldn't have that raised a question in his mind ?   

Also, there are signals and gates on the center island of S. Rice St., as well as at both sides.  The gates are reflectorized as well, as is typical.  Didn't all that vertical and substantial hardware and reflectorized striping in the middle of the street and on both sides catch his eye, either ?

I suspect he was either impaired in some way (drugs, alcohol, medications, sleep deprivation, etc.), or else very distracted ("head in the cockpit" syndrome) from either a cell phone or trying to read and follow his directions, etc., to miss these rather obvious features of his location.  His 'situational awareness' evidently was about zero.

I've been wondering about his situational awareness as well - distraction or sleep deprivation would be my guesses. While neither have the severe legal implications of a DUI, they both can still be used against the driver.

My older son got his learner's permit a couple of weeks ago and a couple of weeks before that he and I sat through a presentation given by the Sheriff's department on various hazards of driving. There is a very big push in California to reduce distractions while driving, with some examples of serious injuries and fatalitites caused by distracted drivers. The deputy giving the presentation specifically mentioned that he will ticket anyone attempting to send or read texts while driving.

 - Erik

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

IGN: Beg pardon - but are you sure you're looking at the correct portion of S. Rice Ave. ?  If you go to the Oxnard Avenue link by tree68/ Larry above, and rotate around, 4 streetlights can be seen at the intersection with E. 5th St., although as I noted above only 1 of them would possibly have been helpful.  Also, the only wall I see is on the west side of S. Rice St. on the northern side of the crossing, and that's only 4 - 5 ft. high - more of a view block for the business there than any kind of sound wall.  The other things that might look like 'walls' are really just fences.   

I mentioned sleep deprivation (drowsiness) as a possible cause or factor above.  However, I would expect that to cause a driver to continue in a straight line, rather than make a hard turn, which necessitates a more conscious act. 

blue streak 1: And, those older kinds of lights can go dim appreciably before they go out.  Also, before that happens, some kinds will 'cycle' on and off at intervals of from 30 secs. to a minute.  I've also seen many fairly new LED streetlights in the City of Bethlehem that are completely out - they're scattered (though quite a few are along Rt. 378), so it's not like a bad circuit or one that was turned off, etc.   

I'll buy anyone a pretty good lunch if you can show me a utility - not a municipal Public Works Dept. - but a big electric utility that has any kind of regular program to go around and find and repair streetlights that are out or 'cycling', etc.  Darn few DOTs or PW Depts. do it either, but there may be 1 or 2 someplace that I don't know about.  See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-vapor_lamp#End_of_life 

http://www.inwardquest.com/questions/10283/when-i-drive-at-night-the-street-lights-turn-off-and-on-is-this-caused-by-me 

- Paul North. 

[blue streak 1]

Paul_D_North_Jr

  

I'll buy anyone a pretty good lunch if you can show me a utility - not a municipal Public Works Dept. - but a big electric utility that has any kind of regular program to go around and find and repair streetlights that are out or 'cycling', etc.  Darn few DOTs or PW Depts. do it either, but there may be 1 or 2 someplace that I don't know about.  See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-vapor_lamp#End_of_life 

http://www.inwardquest.com/questions/10283/when-i-drive-at-night-the-street-lights-turn-off-and-on-is-this-caused-by-me 

- Paul North. 

 

So will I.  One of our activist embarassed city council by asking if street lights were checked.  After being assured they were checked he produced a list of 40 some  inop. 

Another item about any light.  Close by city installed about 5 miles of LEDs.  Within 6 months a small percentage failed and were found to have faulty wiring.  Utility companies do not want to spend the money fixing wiring that fails usually underground wiring.

another problem is usually a bad electric eye.

 

So did the street light at the accident site work ?

 

[Euclid]

zugmann

 

Euclid

I will go further and say that that view is held only by railroaders and railfans.

 

 

 

...of this forum. 

 

A very small percentage.  I can probably count the number of RRers on this forum on 2 hands.  Not exactly a great sample size.

 

I never limited my sample size to railroaders and railfans “of this forum” as you have apparently attributed to me in quoting what I said. 

[tree68]

Euclid

I will go further and say that that view is held only by railroaders and railfans. 

Nothing could be further from the truth.  In the fire service we talk about making things "firefighter-proof."   Hasn't happened yet.

It's a pretty commonly held thought throughout the safety industry that all making something fool-proof does is cause the fools to find new ways to get around whatever it is the feature is supposed to prevent.  Policies, procedures, and engineering can only do so much.  After that, it's up to the individual to make use of those policies, procedures, and engineering.

Or take the individual completely out of the picture by automating a process, which would be analogous to eliminating a crossing.

I've been in the fire service for almost 37 years.  I've seen some traffic incidents (that had nothing to do with railroads) that shouldn't have happened, but for whatever reason, they did.  A stop sign means nothing to a dead man as his truck blows through a stop sign and broadsides a school bus full of kids.

 

[Euclid]

tree68

 

Euclid

I will go further and say that that view is held only by railroaders and railfans. 

 

 

Nothing could be further from the truth.  In the fire service we talk about making things "firefighter-proof."   Hasn't happened yet.

It's a pretty commonly held thought throughout the safety industry that all making something fool-proof does is cause the fools to find new ways to get around whatever it is the feature is supposed to prevent.  Policies, procedures, and engineering can only do so much.  After that, it's up to the individual to make use of those policies, procedures, and engineering.

Or take the individual completely out of the picture by automating a process, which would be analogous to eliminating a crossing.

I've been in the fire service for almost 37 years.  I've seen some traffic incidents (that had nothing to do with railroads) that shouldn't have happened, but for whatever reason, they did.  A stop sign means nothing to a dead man as his truck blows through a stop sign and broadsides a school bus full of kids.

 

 

You are missing my point which I laid out starting with the 9th post on this page, and continued in subsequent exchange.  I am certainly not suggesting that crossing safety should or can be fool proof.  I agree with all your points about that. 

[Norm48327]

""Can't fix stupid" view on the forum all the time."

It's much more prevalent than you think. I have some sheriff's deputy friends, and you should hear how they speak of criminals and brain dead motorists. "Can't fix stupid" is part of their daily lexicon. BTW, none of them are railfans.

Of course, in a utopian world there are no stupid people; only victims.

[Euclid]

Euclid

 

Norm48327

 

schlimm

Over the past years, it's clear that many forum members reject the concept and cost of better rail crossing protection: "Darwin Award winners"  "Idiots"  "too expensive" etc.   But it is a two-edged sword, since it seems possible that railroad personnel need better protection from vehicles, whatever the cause of their being on the tracks.

 

 

 

 

Disagree. There is always room for improvement. Whether the powers that be are willing to pay those costs is open to speculation.

There seems, however, an unwillingness on the part of some posters to acknowledge that others may have a valid opinion. Snarky comments only reinforce that image.

 

 

 

The train is always in the right in a crossing collision.  Yet, no matter how much crossing protection is installed, collisions continue to occur.  While the collisions kill drivers, they also damage trains, injure or kill trainmen and passengers, and often cost money for settlements on behalf drivers despite the right of the train to pass.   Apparently nothing can completely prevent problem even though it is only a matter of controlling driver discretion. 

I believe that 150 years of this experience has left the industry frustrated and taking it personally as an affront on the part of drivers.   The frustration inspires monstrous science fiction grade crossing machines shouting warnings and death threats, or solid steel walls that rise up out of the roadway to completely seal off a crossing from any passage.  

Even though drivers can simply make a mistake, the industry’s bitterness over the perpetual crossing problem causes it to label grade crossing crash victims as “stupid.”  This allows the industry to justify the lack of a fix for the problem with the conclusion that, “You can’t fix stupid.” 

If you can’t fix the problem because drivers are stupid, then the only hope is to kill them all off.  That is the basis of the “Darwin Award.”   It refers nature weeding out the weak so only the strong survive, except in this case, it is nature weeding out the stupid.  So the Darwin Award is a celebration of the death of a crossing victim because they won’t breed and produce anymore stupid people.  It is the only solution in the minds of many.   

Adding more safety measures to crossings conflicts the Darwin solution to the grade crossing problem.  Added safety might preserve the stupid, and thus perpetuate the crossing problem. 

 

This is the point that I was making. 

[wanswheel]

Paul_D_North_Jr

I suspect he was either impaired in some way (drugs, alcohol, medications, sleep deprivation, etc.), or else very distracted ("head in the cockpit" syndrome) from either a cell phone or trying to read and follow his directions, etc., to miss these rather obvious features of his location.  His 'situational awareness' evidently was about zero.

Possibly he was distracted thinking about his dead daughter.

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-metrolink-crash-20150226-story.html

 

[Norm48327]

Euclid

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The train is always in the right in a crossing collision.  Yet, no matter how much crossing protection is installed, collisions continue to occur.  While the collisions kill drivers, they also damage trains, injure or kill trainmen and passengers, and often cost money for settlements on behalf drivers despite the right of the train to pass.   Apparently nothing can completely prevent problem even though it is only a matter of controlling driver discretion. 

I believe that 150 years of this experience has left the industry frustrated and taking it personally as an affront on the part of drivers.   The frustration inspires monstrous science fiction grade crossing machines shouting warnings and death threats, or solid steel walls that rise up out of the roadway to completely seal off a crossing from any passage.  

Even though drivers can simply make a mistake, the industry’s bitterness over the perpetual crossing problem causes it to label grade crossing crash victims as “stupid.”  This allows the industry to justify the lack of a fix for the problem with the conclusion that, “You can’t fix stupid.” 

If you can’t fix the problem because drivers are stupid, then the only hope is to kill them all off.  That is the basis of the “Darwin Award.”   It refers nature weeding out the weak so only the strong survive, except in this case, it is nature weeding out the stupid.  So the Darwin Award is a celebration of the death of a crossing victim because they won’t breed and produce anymore stupid people.  It is the only solution in the minds of many.   

Adding more safety measures to crossings conflicts the Darwin solution to the grade crossing problem.  Added safety might preserve the stupid, and thus perpetuate the crossing problem. 

 

 

 

 

This is the point that I was making. 

 

You're putting words into someone else's mouth. Can you show the railroads really think and say that?

[blue streak 1]

Caltrain posted this link that KRON shot of several persons violating crossing laws.  Police stopped one woman.

http://kron4.com/2015/03/04/people-behaving-badly-faster-than-a-speeding-train/

 

 

[Euclid]

The snarky, condescending attitude of Stanley Roberts is really annoying. 

 

[Deggesty]

blue streak 1

Caltrain posted this link that KRON shot of several persons violating crossing laws.  Police stopped one woman.

http://kron4.com/2015/03/04/people-behaving-badly-faster-than-a-speeding-train/

 

 

 

The drivers shown stopped are, apparently, unaware that they are too close to the vehicles in front of them; if someone came up too fast behind them and hit them, they could be pushed into the rear of the vehicles in front of them. I undestand that you should be able to see where the rear tires of the vehicle in front of you are touching the pavement. At times when someone stops so closely behind me I am tempted to get out and ask the driver if he wants to see what I have in my trunk.

[BaltACD]

Deggesty

The drivers shown stopped are, apparently, unaware that they are too close to the vehicles in front of them; if someone came up too fast behind them and hit them, they could be pushed into the rear of the vehicles in front of them. I undestand that you should be able to see where the rear tires of the vehicle in front of you are touching the pavement. At times when someone stops so closely behind me I am tempted to get out and ask the driver if he wants to see what I have in my trunk.

No need - they are reading the small print on the yearly registration sticker on your rear license plate.

[Deggesty]

BaltACD

 

Deggesty

The drivers shown stopped are, apparently, unaware that they are too close to the vehicles in front of them; if someone came up too fast behind them and hit them, they could be pushed into the rear of the vehicles in front of them. I undestand that you should be able to see where the rear tires of the vehicle in front of you are touching the pavement. At times when someone stops so closely behind me I am tempted to get out and ask the driver if he wants to see what I have in my trunk.

 

 

No need - they are reading the small print on the yearly registration sticker on your rear license plate.

 

Balt, that's right--the year numerals are big, but the registration numerals are very, very small. I never thought of that--now I know they have nothing better to do while waiting for me to get out of their way.

[Electroliner 1935]

I think this might apply to this. 

https://www.facebook.com/330449407114931/photos/a.338324486327423.1073741828.330449407114931/404453353047869/?type=1