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Metro North, 6 dead

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 10:08 PM

Even today there are a wide variety of shift patterns for big trucks.

My pickup has a fairly standard "PRNDL," except that there's no "L" (no pun intended).  Instead, there's a little switch on the shift lever with which to manually shift gears if so desired.

Our fire department brush truck, however, adds an "M" to the mix for such manual shifting.  It's a pain, as the shifter seems to find that more easily than "D."

Back in the day there was a series of movies called "The Bowery Boys."  I saw them as syndicated reruns on TV.

One of the characters ran a garage.  When first confronted with an automatic transmission, he was a bit confused.  He managed to sort it all out in his own inimitable way, however, and the car finally left the garage set up for "D for Day Driving, N for Night Driving, and R for Right Straight Ahead."   With the obvious comical results.

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Posted by edblysard on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 11:17 PM

I can see where this, added to my first scenario, could contribute to her pulling forward, she may have panicked and decided that going ahead was faster than trying to figure out reverse.

My Challenger has the Mercedes German NIG auto stick transmission, it can be driven just like a automatic or a 5 speed manual.

The gear shift is mounted in the center console, looks just like every console mounted automatic shifter, but when you put it in D for drive, if you pull the shifter to the left, 90 degrees towards the driver, the car shifts into first gear, and the computer drops the automatic, you drive it like a normal 5 speed manual, except no clutch pedal, it has a "double plate clutch" feel, every time you pull the shifter to the left it down shifts, push it right, it shifts up...you have to shift all the way up to 5, then again to go back to D automatic, then and only then can you shift to reverse...confusing till you use it a lot, and if I remember, her SUV has the same transmission, only the shift feature  is on a stalk on the right side of the wheel, and uses buttons to select gears.

If so, there is a lot of lost time, with her going from park to whatever gear she was in.

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Posted by erikem on Thursday, March 26, 2015 12:02 AM

zugmann

Lessee, there was a case a few years back where someone was killed because of a stuck accelerator and no simple way to kill the engine (Toyota, IMHO criminal negligence in the design of the engine control software). Another incident died of heat exposure because there was no way to open the doors from the inside with the doors locked (IIRC, BMW).

I can't imagine MBZ in the days of Rudy Uhlenhaut foisting such an abomination of a "shift lever" on the driving public. He was the one who insisted that the headlight switch be on the driver's door side of the steering whel to keep passengers from monkeying with it.

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Posted by Norm48327 on Thursday, March 26, 2015 6:07 AM

There is much to be said for simplicity and I wonder why the auto-makers have to keep mucking things up. Could it be that the fools are not behind the wheel but in the engineering department?

I bought a new (to me) car last fall and the computer does everything. All I can do is point it where I want to go. I suppose that'll change soon.

Norm


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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, March 26, 2015 7:10 AM

Automakers aren't the only people who are mucking things up.  Software designers seem to have a knack for not remembering the people who are actually going to use their program.  System upgrades often appear to be a solution in search of a problem.

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Posted by Euclid on Thursday, March 26, 2015 7:53 AM
I doubt that somebody who has driven a vehicle for a month or more would have not figured out how to back up.  We know that initially, the driver was blocked from backing up due to being blocked by the car behind her.  It is reported that the driver behind her backed up to give her room to come back, but it has never been clear how that was timed.  Maybe the driver was back in her vehicle and had already decided to escape forward when the driver behind backed up.
The news reported when the gate came down on her vehicle, the driver got out, looked at the gate, and reached up to wiggle it.  It was also reported that the gate was near the back of her vehicle.  I think it is most likely that she decided that forward would be the best way to disentangle from the gate, and that she did not realize that the time to get across had run out. 
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Posted by Norm48327 on Thursday, March 26, 2015 8:19 AM

Euclid
I doubt that somebody who has driven a vehicle for a month or more would have not figured out how to back up.  We know that initially, the driver was blocked from backing up due to being blocked by the car behind her.  It is reported that the driver behind her backed up to give her room to come back, but it has never been clear how that was timed.  Maybe the driver was back in her vehicle and had already decided to escape forward when the driver behind backed up.
The news reported when the gate came down on her vehicle, the driver got out, looked at the gate, and reached up to wiggle it.  It was also reported that the gate was near the back of her vehicle.  I think it is most likely that she decided that forward would be the best way to disentangle from the gate, and that she did not realize that the time to get across had run out. 
 

Think panic.

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Posted by Euclid on Thursday, March 26, 2015 9:09 AM
I expect there was panic all right.  I don’t know where the front end of her vehicle was in relation to the track, but if the gate was on the back of her vehicle, the front must have been close to the track.  Even if she was not fouling the track, she might have thought she was.  Otherwise, logically, it would have made the most sense to just stay put until the train passed and the gates lifted. 
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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Thursday, March 26, 2015 9:52 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH
Automakers aren't the only people who are mucking things up.  Software designers seem to have a knack for not remembering the people who are actually going to use their program.  System upgrades often appear to be a solution in search of a problem.

Really ? "I'm shocked, shocked" [heavy sarcasm]  More like a problem in search of a stable operation to muck up - witness the alleged 'upgrades' to this Forum from time to time.

- Paul North. 

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, March 26, 2015 10:19 AM

edblysard

I can see where this, added to my first scenario, could contribute to her pulling forward, she may have panicked and decided that going ahead was faster than trying to figure out reverse.

My Challenger has the Mercedes German NIG auto stick transmission, it can be driven just like a automatic or a 5 speed manual.

The gear shift is mounted in the center console, looks just like every console mounted automatic shifter, but when you put it in D for drive, if you pull the shifter to the left, 90 degrees towards the driver, the car shifts into first gear, and the computer drops the automatic, you drive it like a normal 5 speed manual, except no clutch pedal, it has a "double plate clutch" feel, every time you pull the shifter to the left it down shifts, push it right, it shifts up...you have to shift all the way up to 5, then again to go back to D automatic, then and only then can you shift to reverse...confusing till you use it a lot, and if I remember, her SUV has the same transmission, only the shift feature  is on a stalk on the right side of the wheel, and uses buttons to select gears.

If so, there is a lot of lost time, with her going from park to whatever gear she was in.

 

When I bought a new car (a Cruze) going on two years ago, I had quite a bit to learn after the eleven years since I had bought a car. The shift lever is on the floor, with P, R, N, and D going straight back--and M to the left of D, with six ratios (I'm one better than you, Ed). I can shift to M from D at any time, and then I can control the gear ratio; it's quite useful for going the mile and a quarter downhill from home to about 4th Avenue (a drop of close to 800 feet), and I get wonderful gas mileage. Sometimes, the transmission decides that my choice was not wise, and I have to tell it to go back to what I want.

There are other things that are supposed to be improvements; the door covering the gasoline cap has to be pushed in before it can be opened; there is no cylinder for a key in the trunk lid; if the doors are unlocked the trunk can be opened by pressing in the right place. If I unlock the driverside front door with my key, the horn beeps until I put the key into the ignition switch; and other little annoying things.

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Thursday, March 26, 2015 10:43 AM

LION has been following the thread of this from his email account.

My Brother (the automobile mechanic with a masters degree in forestry) said that those cars have 6 forward speeds in order to increase gas mileage.

Oh well, maybe she got flustered, but she did not say that was the case. Deeper into the issue was an accident on the Taconic State Parkway (200 feet to the east) that diverted traffic onto this road whith which even though a local, she may not have been familiar with. (The town of Valhalla is 90% Cemeteries).

LION suspect (but of course does not know) that with all the traffic on that road at that moment she may not have been able to back up.

If LION was driving (besides the fact that him would not be caugt dead on a track) him would have gone forward fast *anywhere* right, left or shove the car in front out of the way.

But not all drivers are LIONS and so they may not have a nice soft tail to keep out of harms way.

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Posted by ACY Tom on Thursday, March 26, 2015 10:48 AM

I know I'm an old fuddy duddy, but what the heck is "M" for?  I have a simple old PRNDL, and it works.  Many years ago, on "Green Acres", Miss Gabor pronounced it "Perndle".

Tom

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, March 26, 2015 10:55 AM

M=Manual. Of course, the indication on the dash is the gear that the transmission is in (1,2,3,4,5,or 6), and not "M."

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Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, March 26, 2015 11:05 AM

wanswheel
The reason she stopped seems to be that she had no choice, except to stop right on the track, and the sign said don’t. I think she made the blunder because she had no experience estimating the speed of a tiny noisy train in the distance, but did know from experience that, if she must move promptly, backing up is a slow, tricky procedure compared  to flooring it in drive.

She knew her reverse, if she had a driveway or shopped much.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, March 26, 2015 1:40 PM

There is 'knowing' something and how it operates and there is 'panic' and forgetting everything you know about how to operate anything properly.  Unfortunately, she and 5 innocent people paid with their lives for her panic.

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Posted by gardendance on Thursday, March 26, 2015 2:23 PM

Euclid
We know that initially, the driver was blocked from backing up due to being blocked by the car behind her.

How do we know that? Please show us the article you're linking that supports that the driver behind was too close for her to back up.

Euclid
  It is reported that the driver behind her backed up to give her room to come back, but it has never been clear how that was timed.  Maybe the driver was back in her vehicle and had already decided to escape forward when the driver behind backed up.

I also remember reading that the driver behind her backed up, but I don't remember reading any specifics that said she didn't have enough room in the first place. The other driver might have backed up to give her more room, even though she might have had enough room in the first place. I'm not saying it didn't happen the way you say, just that I don't remember reading anything that said so.
Somewhere I think I read, and posted somewhere in this thread, that there was enough room for her car between the gate and the 1st track. I can't pinpoint now where I might have read it, but it adds in my mind to the tragedy, if true then nothing would have happened if she had just stayed where she was, and even more ironic, if what I remember reading is true, the train was actually on the far track, not even the 1st track from where she had stopped.

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Posted by Euclid on Thursday, March 26, 2015 2:40 PM

I do not know how much room she had behind her.  I assumed it was not enough to get back off the crossing because the driver behind her said he moved back to give her room, and that he was surprised that she did not move back after he had done so. 

I think she either did not realize that there was room behind her, or that she did not want to scrape nearly the entire length of her vehicle under the lowered gate by backing into the clear.   

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Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, March 26, 2015 2:47 PM

gardendance
the train was actually on the far track
 

Nope.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/02/04/valhallatraincrash/22889015/

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Posted by Norm48327 on Thursday, March 26, 2015 2:53 PM

Euclid

I do not know how much room she had behind her.  I assumed it was not enough to get back off the crossing because the driver behind her said he moved back to give her room, and that he was surprised that she did not move back after he had done so. 

I think she either did not realize that there was room behind her, or that she did not want to scrape nearly the entire length of her vehicle under the lowered gate by backing into the clear.   

 

You know what assume does. Makes us look like equines of the braying kind.

What information the media presents is always suspect as far as accuracy goes. Whether there was enough room for her to back up may not even be mentioned in the official report. Therefore, we are sort of beating the proverbial dead horse.

Norm


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Posted by Euclid on Thursday, March 26, 2015 3:41 PM

Norm,

Many news reports said that the driver moved back in order to give her room to back up.  I don't think it is a particularly wild assumption to conclude that she initially did not have room to back up.

But let's say she did have room to back up and chose not to.  What then is the conclusion here that would make this issue so critical in your mind? 

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Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, March 26, 2015 10:54 PM

Euclid

Norm,

Many news reports said that the driver moved back in order to give her room to back up.  I don't think it is a particularly wild assumption to conclude that she initially did not have room to back up.

But let's say she did have room to back up and chose not to.  What then is the conclusion here that would make this issue so critical in your mind? 

 

According to the story in the Railway Age editorial, the driver of the car behind her backed up and yelled at her to back up when she got out of her car.  I think it's quite possible that she panicked and forgot how the gearshift worked differently in her new vehicle.

My pickup is a manual 5 speed.  My wife's car is an automatic.  Once in a while when driving her car when I come to a stop sign, I've found myself reaching for the gearshift.

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Posted by gardendance on Friday, March 27, 2015 12:45 AM

wanswheel

gardendance

the train was actually on the far track

Nope.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/02/04/valhallatraincrash/22889015/

No thanks for snipping my quote and leaving out the "I think I remember reading" part. I'm sure you didn't do it intentionally.

Thanks, 2 of the photos clearly show the train and suv on the near track.

The witness says the SUV "goes forward 15 feet, right in front of the train" which indicates at least part of the SUV was not on the tracks until she moved.

 

Euclid

We know that initially, the driver was blocked from backing up due to being blocked by the car behind her.

...

I do not know how much room she had behind her.

...

Many news reports said that the driver moved back in order to give her room to back up.  I don't think it is a particularly wild assumption to conclude that she initially did not have room to back up.

Euclid, please acknowledge the BIG difference between "we know" and "I do not know" and "assumption". I agree that it's not a particularly wild assumption, but again I don't remember reading anything that said the car behind her was blocking her.

The article wanswheel linked quotes that 2nd car's driver "There was nobody behind me so I backed up real fast", but doesn't say anything about him being so close to her that she couldn't have backed up in the first place. Of course I'd hardly expect him to say "I was right up against her bumper like I always do whenever I'm at a grade crossing"

Norm48327

What information the media presents is always suspect as far as accuracy goes. Whether there was enough room for her to back up may not even be mentioned in the official report. Therefore, we are sort of beating the proverbial dead horse.

Euclid

Norm,

...

But let's say she did have room to back up and chose not to.  What then is the conclusion here that would make this issue so critical in your mind? 

I should probably let Norm speak for himself, but I doubt that this issue is critical to him. I translate beating a dead horse to mean continuing to discuss something unimportant.

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Posted by Norm48327 on Friday, March 27, 2015 6:03 AM

"I translate beating a dead horse to mean continuing to discuss something unimportant."

In this instance it means we're discussing something we can't resolve without further information.

Norm


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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, March 27, 2015 6:24 AM

jeffhergert

 

My pickup is a manual 5 speed.  My wife's car is an automatic.  Once in a while when driving her car when I come to a stop sign, I've found myself reaching for the gearshift.

Jeff 

 

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Posted by Euclid on Friday, March 27, 2015 7:40 AM

Norm48327

"I translate beating a dead horse to mean continuing to discuss something unimportant."

In this instance it means we're discussing something we can't resolve without further information.

 
However, we can sure try to resolve gear shifting problems without any information.  The horse is fine for that. 
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Posted by Euclid on Friday, March 27, 2015 8:35 AM
How does the shifting control work on the vehicle that was struck in this crash?
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Posted by tree68 on Friday, March 27, 2015 8:52 AM

BaltACD
Just be careful when your left leg goes to push in the clutch!

Been there.  It ain't pretty.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, March 27, 2015 11:07 AM

tree68
 
BaltACD
Just be careful when your left leg goes to push in the clutch!

 

Been there.  It ain't pretty.

 

I never owned a car with an automatic transmission until I married--my wife could not manage a manual transmission. Once, when I was visiting my oldest brother, he invited me to use his car. I am thankful that the sudden stop I made using both feet on the brake did not have any ill effect.

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Posted by wanswheel on Friday, March 27, 2015 11:27 AM

gardendance
No thanks for snipping my quote and leaving out the "I think I remember reading" part. I'm sure you didn't do it intentionally.

Patrick, I'm sorry and thanks for the benefit of the doubt. I did do it on purpose, wrongly putting a greater value on economy than courtesy.

Mike

 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, March 27, 2015 7:54 PM

an interesting program was on NPR this afternoon.  It was about the human brain research and how the two halves work and don't work together.  at the very end there was a statement that right handed ( left brain hemisphere ) persons have problems recognizing items to the right.  Did not here anything the same for left handed persons. 

This may or may not be any part but if the drivers at MNRR and Metrolink  ---  This may need much more research as to why some persons do not see a train coming.

 

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