Quentin
QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds I don't think the government should confiscate the money people earn and spend it on things like Amtrak. The Federal government is authorized in our Constituion to do certain things; and taking money from people to run a railroad ain't one of those things. I dont know about anyone else here but I would reather see MY tax dollars being spent on a national high speed rail service that I could actually USE! But squandering $$$'s and lives on a war in a country that DID NOT attack us, was based on faulty intellegence, and had more to do with the Presidents personal HUBRIS while letting the real enemies sneak out of Afghanistan all while US jobs flee oversea's is OK with you? I feel like the whole country is taking Crazy Pills! Have fun with your trains Reply MP57313 Member sinceJune 2001 From: L A County, CA, US 1,009 posts Posted by MP57313 on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 3:02 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd Bush has bigger fi***o fry - he will pretty much ignore Amtrak and then sign whatever spending bill comes his way That seems to be the case. I am a bit nervous about all the government debt that is piling up. Another $75B request for Iraq expected in January. Since taxing citizens is out of the question, the alternative is borrowing: funds will come from those with the money---mutual fund firms, our foreign trading partners (Japan, China, South Korea, OPEC nations). BTW this is not a political rant -- same problems would exist had Kerry won. What does it all mean? The interest on the debt at some point will put a greater squeeze on govt expenditures. Less money to go around for infrastructure, transit, etc. MP Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 2:59 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds President Bush isn't anti passenger rail. I'll bet there are several hours per day that he doesn't even think about passenger trains even once. I've never heard him address the subject, but if I had to guess he'd resist spending other people's money to run trains when the people who use the trains won't pay for the trains. Interesting view. I suppose the prez would object to "spending other people's money" on highways, since not all people will drive on them. And not all Americans will use O'Hare or DFW, but still the feds dump money into that money-losing system without cries about subsidies.. Funny how a man so opposed to public funding of worthwhile projects like passenger rail got his boost as a co-owner of the Texas Rangers from a city sales tax! Yup. He even lobbied for the tax. I guess his luxury sports team - something that an overwhelming majority of Americans would have no use for - gets funded while transporrtation, much more critical to the U.S. infrastructure, is ignored. BTW, you don't have to hear him personally speak on a topic to know what he's for or agin'. His budget hit man, MITCH DANIELS, the one who spearheaded the death of Amtrak, is now Gov. of Indiana. So Gabe, don't look for that rail-backward state to improve or fund any passenger rail service for the next 8 or so years. Maybe after their neighbors like OH and IL improve service, tiny IN will move into the 21st century. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 2:56 PM Greyhounds Does that same arguement apply to gas taxes and the interstate highway system? Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 2:51 PM Generally the Bush administration is considered to be pro-business. The question in my mind is what would this administration do in scenario where fuel prices rise dramaticly, resulting in significant increases in truck cost and a lower availability of that mode of transportation. Assuming that railroads still can't afford to invest in additional capacity, that would leave U.S. business in a very tough spot. I'm not suggesting that things will grind to a halt, but I can't imagine the impact on the economy (jobs, inflation) will be favorable. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 2:35 PM I don't see any big changes to Amtrak. Nixon thought it would die on it's own - it didnt'. Carter let it become a big pork barrel - remember the Hilltopper, Shenendoah, et.al. and then whacked it near the end of his term. Reagan tried to kill it, and failed. Bush pretty much let it go on with benign neglect. Clinton promised the moon in 1992 and delivered absolutely nothing and worse, bought into that "glide slope to self sufficiency" nonsense. Bush has bigger fi***o fry - he will pretty much igore Amtrak and then sign whatever spending bill comes his way -on that will likely have enough for Amtrak status quo. -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply greyhounds Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Antioch, IL 4,371 posts Posted by greyhounds on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 2:28 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Colin I don't understand how any railfan or rail advocate could vote for the anti passenger rail Bush Admin. and radical right Republican Congress. Maybe Amtrak and the NEC might broken up into Train operating companies ala the British Privatization scheme. The Bushies might tout the fact that UK railridership is up over 40% since privatization. to sell it the Frosk?Delay Congress. Well, I'm a railfan, rail advocate and former railroader and I voted for President Bush and Republicans for the House and Senate. I don't think the government should confiscate the money people earn and spend it on things like Amtrak. The Federal government is authorized in our Constituion to do certain things; and taking money from people to run a railroad ain't one of those things. Now you can call me radical right if you want - but that's a very reasonable position well founded in economics and political science. President Bush isn't anti passenger rail. I'll bet there are several hours per day that he doesn't even think about passenger trains even once. I've never heard him address the subject, but if I had to guess he'd resist spending other people's money to run trains when the people who use the trains won't pay for the trains. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply broncoman Member sinceFebruary 2003 From: Gateway to Donner Summit 434 posts Posted by broncoman on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 2:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by sammythebull This is a sad day for the US.This adm is no freind of union labor and it is not going to get any better. Not only have 6000 engr jobs been wiped out within the last three yrs account remote control. The rr clerks union have also taken a hit with many crew calling positions abolished account automatic computerized calling. I have always been curious as to why when progress calls for changes, that it becomes a Republican bashing event. Let's say democrats were in power since the 1800s and there were Wagon wheelright unions, does that mean they should still be around and shouldn't have found jobs to reflect that there are no wagons anymore? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 2:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Colin I don't understand how any railfan or rail advocate could vote for the anti passenger rail Bush Admin. and radical right Republican Congress. Maybe Amtrak and the NEC might broken up into Train operating companies ala the British Privatization scheme. The Bushies might tout the fact that UK railridership is up over 40% since privatization. to sell it the Frosk?Delay Congress. Colin, you must concede that it is entirely logical for one to be both a railfan and a critic of AMTRAK. Conversely, I'm sure there are many pro-AMTRAK types out there who despise the freight railroads. Any person who works for or supports private industry (including the railroad industry) will have at least a tacit support for a business friendly Administration and Congress. Being business friendly is not "radical right", it is mainstream political thought. I do like your point on privatization of the NEC, but I don't believe that will happen without some form of public support. A privatized NEC would be a good model for an open access experiment. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 1:51 PM I don't understand how any railfan or rail advocate could vote for the anti passenger rail Bush Admin. and radical right Republican Congress. Maybe Amtrak and the NEC might broken up into Train operating companies ala the British Privatization scheme. The Bushies might tout the fact that UK railridership is up over 40% since privatization. to sell it the Frosk?Delay Congress. Reply Edit vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 1:07 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by sammythebull This is a sad day for the US.This adm is no freind of union labor and it is not going to get any better. Not only have 6000 engr jobs been wiped out within the last three yrs account remote control. The rr clerks union have also taken a hit with many crew calling positions abolished account automatic computerized calling. The root cause of all this is that the Democratic party continues to put people up who are not winnable and cannot connect with voters. We saw this in other elections, such as Dashle loosing the SD Senate. This party is in a mess. There is no clear focus . Who now takes over as minority leader? This is all not good for union labor. My projections for 08 is John McCain vs. Bill Richardson (NM Gov) Quote Will Rogers..."I belong to no organized political party, I'm a Democrat.." Actually the democrates did an outstanding job this election of getting out their message, voter turn out was the highest in decades. Its simply that the republicans managed to get more voters to the polls in more states. Simple as that... If you want to blame anyone, blame the slacker population of elligable voters who sat this one out 'cause they couldnt be bothered to put down the 44oz Malt Liquor, or put down the Gameboy, or put down the Beerbong long enough to get off thier duffs and vote! Have fun with your trains Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 1:05 PM In reality there is one place that no one is looking. With 55 votes in the Senate and good relations with perhaps 5 conservative democrats the adminisration will have a good situation to get most of what it wants (it takes 60 votes on the floor to gain cloiture or the end of debate on any topic under the current Senate Rules). What has escaped notice is that there are three perhaps four near future vacancy's on the U.S. Supreme Court. (By way of information the president nominates and the Senate confirms the Federal Judiciary) That occuring and with the Senate being in a "constructionist or Federalist mind set would cause something of a sea change in the Federal Bench. In short my friends, this could have long lasting effects on the way the economy and the nation legally does its business. So lets stay tuned its going to be an interesting two to four years. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 12:57 PM This is a sad day for the US.This adm is no freind of union labor and it is not going to get any better. Not only have 6000 engr jobs been wiped out within the last three yrs account remote control. The rr clerks union have also taken a hit with many crew calling positions abolished account automatic computerized calling. The root cause of all this is that the Democratic party continues to put people up who are not winnable and cannot connect with voters. We saw this in other elections, such as Dashle loosing the SD Senate. This party is in a mess. There is no clear focus . Who now takes over as minority leader? This is all not good for union labor. My projections for 08 is John McCain vs. Bill Richardson (NM Gov) Reply Edit Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 12:56 PM Just to be sure you don't think I just attacking Bush for the sake of attacking Bush, I said the same thing about Paul Martin. I am very frustrated with the Canadian people for the choices they have made or not made in the past elections both federal and provincial. I don't particularly don't like politics for the sake of being political. I believe that when you have been givin the privelage of running the country, all partisanship must be dropped and now you are a care taker. I believe the same should be done with the Senate or in Canada the House of Commons. I'm just really concerned for the American people in that there will be a draft and there are a few other concerns I don't really want to get to much into as Bergie would frown on it more than what he probably would be doing right now, reading this thread. All I can say is take care and congradulations to the Republicans. Andrew Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 12:30 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by tabiery QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan Same cow patties, same pile. I just hope that the American majority know what they are doing. I hope they are careful and don't drown in the mounting pile of cow patties........ [?] Americans embrace trade and good relations with Canada. We let you take control of the Illinois Central. CP trains operate into our nation daily. Our highways are filled with your trucks. And Canada remains our number one trading partner. We also invest in your welfare. General Motors is investing $1,000,000,000 billion dollars into refurbishing its auto plant neat Toronto. Republicans have allowed free trade to take place which benefits both nations. Yes Americans know what we are doing. And we plan on keeping the worlds longest undefended border open for business and pleasure. Friends forever. [:)][:)] But Canada has a bunch of unemployed hockey players to take care of!!![:(] Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 12:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan Same cow patties, same pile. I just hope that the American majority know what they are doing. I hope they are careful and don't drown in the mounting pile of cow patties........ [?] Americans embrace trade and good relations with Canada. We let you take control of the Illinois Central. CP trains operate into our nation daily. Our highways are filled with your trucks. And Canada remains our number one trading partner. We also invest in your welfare. General Motors is investing $1,000,000,000 billion dollars into refurbishing its auto plant neat Toronto. Republicans have allowed free trade to take place which benefits both nations. Yes Americans know what we are doing. And we plan on keeping the worlds longest undefended border open for business and pleasure. Friends forever. [:)][:)] Reply Edit arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 12:12 PM AMTK....probably the kiss of death. If there is no direct action to stop funding the Republicans will use a back door approach and require the states to pick up more of the tab. You can expect states like ND, MT, ID to opt out of such an arrangement and the Empire Builder will be gone. With enough of the states opting out more of the trains will evaporate and AMTK will be parted out to regional authorities or some private consortiums, or airlines. Unions.....Expect the railroads to push for repeal of FELA and maybe some relief from Railroad Retirement. Union members will have to pick up more of their insurance premiums. Unions will be unwilling to open debate on the Hours of Service Law so employees in road service will continue to work 50 to 80 hrs per week for months at a time, even years at a time. Railroads will be trying to reduce the costs of the jobs they cannot export like other large companies can. As MWH pointed out, the prevailing trends will continue. Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 12:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Dont be too surprised if we do see the demise of a national passenger rail service in this next administration. This admin is far more catering to the airline and auto industry than to rail or bus services. Do you think your observations concerning the Administrative attitudes also apply to freight rail? Just curious. No, because Class 1's are generally self funded, own there own rolling stock, own there own ROW's and as far as I know recieve no substantial Federal subsidies to continue operations. Plus you can't haul coal by airplane, and i have heard no one in this administration aurgue that freight rail service is not necessary. Even the stauchest anti-Amtrack advocate would admit what an absolute hellish nightmare it would be trying to ship the shear volumn of shipping containers that come into this country on a daily basis if they all had to shipped cross country by truck. Have fun with your trains Reply gabe Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Indianapolis, Indiana 2,434 posts Posted by gabe on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:58 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by broncoman I can't see much of an erosion in unions since there is becoming a bigger gap of good paying journeyman type jobs going unfilled, at least on the west coast in the union I belong to (I.B.E.W.). I would imagine that this is the same across the country. Its giving our union a little more bargaining power especially with the amount of retirees.. Capitalism is good. A very interesting observation. Reply gabe Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Indianapolis, Indiana 2,434 posts Posted by gabe on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:57 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Dont be too surprised if we do see the demise of a national passenger rail service in this next administration. This admin is far more catering to the airline and auto industry than to rail or bus services. Do you think your observations concerning the Administrative attitudes also apply to freight rail? Just curious. Reply gabe Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Indianapolis, Indiana 2,434 posts Posted by gabe on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:55 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan Same cow patties, same pile. I just hope that the American majority know what they are doing. I hope they are careful and don't drown in the mounting pile of cow patties........ In all honesty, I am apolitical (at least in a party-line sense), and I have no personal hard feelings about someone calling a Republican victory a mounting pile of . . . . However, it always amuses me how people from outside of America comment on our politics rather than respecting the sovereign power of American voters. Do we do this with other countries? I certainly hope not. We comment on China's leadership, North Korea’s leadership, or problems in the Kremlin, but those comments are complaints about the process in which the leaders were chosen--not complaints about properly elected officials. I respect Canada's leadership. It makes decisions that I do not necessarily think are practical at times. Nonetheless, it is the sovereign voters of Canada making those decisions and I would never call those decisions a mounting pile of . . . Decisions made by the Canadian electorate are determined by cultural values and perceptions of their self-interest that I could not understand as a non-Canadian. Therefore, it would be less than humble of me to make adverse comments concerning Canada’s decisions. Similarly American decisions are motivated by their cultural values concerning economics and their perceptions concerning the war on terror (I am not saying I agree or disagree with either perception). Canada has different cultural values than the United States and is not the target of global terrorism in the same way as are American citizens. Gabe Reply broncoman Member sinceFebruary 2003 From: Gateway to Donner Summit 434 posts Posted by broncoman on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:44 AM I can't see much of an erosion in unions since there is becoming a bigger gap of good paying journeyman type jobs going unfilled, at least on the west coast in the union I belong to (I.B.E.W.). I would imagine that this is the same across the country. Its giving our union a little more bargaining power especially with the amount of retirees.. Capitalism is good. Reply rrnut282 Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: MP CF161.6 NS's New Castle District in NE Indiana 2,148 posts Posted by rrnut282 on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:43 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith This admin is far more catering to the airline and auto industry than to rail or bus services. There's an improvement in the status of rail. We're equal to buses now.[:o)] Mike (2-8-2) Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:35 AM Dont be too surprised if we do see the demise of a national passenger rail service in this next administration. This admin is far more catering to the airline and auto industry than to rail or bus services. Have fun with your trains Reply dharmon Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Bottom Left Corner, USA 3,420 posts Posted by dharmon on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:32 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan Same cow patties, same pile. I just hope that the American majority know what they are doing. I hope they are careful and don't drown in the mounting pile of cow patties........ Thank you for you observation of our political process. We collectively made our choice and now we will live with it. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:28 AM Same cow patties, same pile. I just hope that the American majority know what they are doing. I hope they are careful and don't drown in the mounting pile of cow patties........ Andrew Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:28 AM One radical prediction: The NEC will be foisted off the federal hands and onto a regional consortium. This move will have bi-partisan support outside the Northeast. Reply Edit jockellis Member sinceMay 2002 From: Just outside Atlanta 422 posts Posted by jockellis on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:05 AM It certainly doesn't bode well for AMTRAK which receives scant support from Republicans. Here in Georgia, new senator Johnny Isakson has consistently voted against AMTRAK as a congressman. At a recent Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers meeting, it was tossed out that the organization needed to educate Isakson who voted to cut out trains running through his own state. Jock Ellis Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Implications of a Republican sweep..... Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 10:53 AM Hello all.... Since Kerry has conceeded to Bush it looks like we have a sweep by the Republicans to take control of the presidency, House, and Senate. This could have huge implications on the railroads. I was wondering what the effect would be on a union front, would the republican controlled government greatly weaken the bargaining power of labor unions??? Let's hear everyone's opinion on this issue and please feel free to throw in other effects. Reply Edit « First«-10123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
I don't think the government should confiscate the money people earn and spend it on things like Amtrak. The Federal government is authorized in our Constituion to do certain things; and taking money from people to run a railroad ain't one of those things.
Have fun with your trains
QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd Bush has bigger fi***o fry - he will pretty much ignore Amtrak and then sign whatever spending bill comes his way
QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds President Bush isn't anti passenger rail. I'll bet there are several hours per day that he doesn't even think about passenger trains even once. I've never heard him address the subject, but if I had to guess he'd resist spending other people's money to run trains when the people who use the trains won't pay for the trains.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
QUOTE: Originally posted by Colin I don't understand how any railfan or rail advocate could vote for the anti passenger rail Bush Admin. and radical right Republican Congress. Maybe Amtrak and the NEC might broken up into Train operating companies ala the British Privatization scheme. The Bushies might tout the fact that UK railridership is up over 40% since privatization. to sell it the Frosk?Delay Congress.
QUOTE: Originally posted by sammythebull This is a sad day for the US.This adm is no freind of union labor and it is not going to get any better. Not only have 6000 engr jobs been wiped out within the last three yrs account remote control. The rr clerks union have also taken a hit with many crew calling positions abolished account automatic computerized calling.
QUOTE: Originally posted by sammythebull This is a sad day for the US.This adm is no freind of union labor and it is not going to get any better. Not only have 6000 engr jobs been wiped out within the last three yrs account remote control. The rr clerks union have also taken a hit with many crew calling positions abolished account automatic computerized calling. The root cause of all this is that the Democratic party continues to put people up who are not winnable and cannot connect with voters. We saw this in other elections, such as Dashle loosing the SD Senate. This party is in a mess. There is no clear focus . Who now takes over as minority leader? This is all not good for union labor. My projections for 08 is John McCain vs. Bill Richardson (NM Gov)
QUOTE: Originally posted by tabiery QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan Same cow patties, same pile. I just hope that the American majority know what they are doing. I hope they are careful and don't drown in the mounting pile of cow patties........ [?] Americans embrace trade and good relations with Canada. We let you take control of the Illinois Central. CP trains operate into our nation daily. Our highways are filled with your trucks. And Canada remains our number one trading partner. We also invest in your welfare. General Motors is investing $1,000,000,000 billion dollars into refurbishing its auto plant neat Toronto. Republicans have allowed free trade to take place which benefits both nations. Yes Americans know what we are doing. And we plan on keeping the worlds longest undefended border open for business and pleasure. Friends forever. [:)][:)]
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan Same cow patties, same pile. I just hope that the American majority know what they are doing. I hope they are careful and don't drown in the mounting pile of cow patties........
QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Dont be too surprised if we do see the demise of a national passenger rail service in this next administration. This admin is far more catering to the airline and auto industry than to rail or bus services. Do you think your observations concerning the Administrative attitudes also apply to freight rail? Just curious.
QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Dont be too surprised if we do see the demise of a national passenger rail service in this next administration. This admin is far more catering to the airline and auto industry than to rail or bus services.
QUOTE: Originally posted by broncoman I can't see much of an erosion in unions since there is becoming a bigger gap of good paying journeyman type jobs going unfilled, at least on the west coast in the union I belong to (I.B.E.W.). I would imagine that this is the same across the country. Its giving our union a little more bargaining power especially with the amount of retirees.. Capitalism is good.
QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith This admin is far more catering to the airline and auto industry than to rail or bus services.
Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers
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