K.P., thanks much for those photos and info !!!
From: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,199088 (last post):
"The grades on the San Bernardino and Redondo Jct. flyovers are 3%, the grade on the San Gabriel River/El Monte is 2%. These are the effective grades considering curve resistance, the actual grades are slightly less. There are no prohibitions on freight use, just speed restrictions in consideration of braking on those grades."
From http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,1374619 (about the middle of this thread):
"The two Metrolink grades of 3% are on the Redondo Jct. and San Bernardino (CA) flyovers. There is a segment of BNSF track in Cajon Pass that is a little over 3% that the SW Chief uses, and of course the Chief also goes over 3% grades at Glorietta and Raton passes in New Mexico. Steeper grades are very difficult to manage unless you have traction of most of the wheels like transit operators and keep speed very low downhill."
Maybe more later.
- Paul North.
Continued Reply to Paul D. North Jr. (7-29):
More views:
Have fun ponder that flyover, Paul.
If it is 3%, it is greater than the grades on Tehachapi!
It would also explain why I’ve never seen a UP freight on it. UP trainmen carry bulletins and whatever else they must have to operate trains over that flyover, but I’ve yet to see such.
Take care,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Paul D. North Jr. (7-29):
Here are the promised photos of the Metrolink flyover in El Monte (CA). A cursory estimate suggests it has 3% inclines.
Continued …
Paul_D_North_JrK. P. Harrier New Signals in Bakersfield and Exceeding … … the Signal Display Possibilities [snipped - PDN] . . . While at this point in time in Bakersfield it is difficult to second guess the railroad, it would seem the only way around that exceeding the possibilities are three-headed signals, such as the west eastbound signal at CP AL497 BASSETT in the El Monte area of Southern California, on the Sunset Route. K.P. will be paying close attention to what sources convey about the Bakersfield area’s new signals, and then he will pass it along to the forum. What the heck is that roller coaster on the right side to the upper background ? Where is it ? Why ? Has it been shown here before ? - Paul North.
… the Signal Display Possibilities
[snipped - PDN] . . . While at this point in time in Bakersfield it is difficult to second guess the railroad, it would seem the only way around that exceeding the possibilities are three-headed signals, such as the west eastbound signal at CP AL497 BASSETT in the El Monte area of Southern California, on the Sunset Route.
K.P. will be paying close attention to what sources convey about the Bakersfield area’s new signals, and then he will pass it along to the forum.
What the heck is that roller coaster on the right side to the upper background ? Where is it ? Why ? Has it been shown here before ?
It's at about these Lat./ Long. coords.: N 34 3.663' W 118 0.751'
1/2 mile west of I-605, and 1/4 mile south of I-10, just west of the San Gabriel River at the confluence with Walnut Creek, just east of Durfee Rd. and just north of Valley Blvd., where Gilman Rd. would cross the tracks (if it didn't end or turn before them, as it does).
See also this thread from 2002 - "Grade of Metrolink's El Monte Flyover":
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,199088
The last post says this grade is 2% - but others nearby are 3 % ?
What I thought I remembered here from about 3 - 5 years ago is a road-rail grade separation just west (?) of a river that also involved some steep grades on the railroad.
South Slope Signaling Quirks
At South Mojave, at where two-tracks (from the north) become just single-track (to the south), the Main 1 north side southbound signal (center mast) at CP SP381 SOUTH MOJAVE has a single red over a full green-yellow-red lamps possible display.
Photos herein were recently shown
HOWEVER, in an odd quirk, Main 1’s southbound holding signal at CP SP380 MOJAVE has a THREE lamp top head. Most commonly, a three-bulb top head usually has the top lamp as green.
When K.P. was at CP SP380 MOJAVE recently, he saw a BNSF southbound (eastbound) take a yellow over yellow (above two photos). What, though, is the display for a UP southbound? Maybe (“maybe”) a high green since the head has three lamp positions, as UP just doesn’t have empty position heads. But, yet to have a high green in advance of a red over green is inconsistent with UP standards!
Sources that are familiar with the signals thereat say that signal never displays green! The highest display possible is just yellow over yellow, which is semi-consistent with the track arrangement there. Interestingly, the Main 1 advance THREE lamp head on the mast to the north, never displays a green either, but the highest level that it is capable of displaying is flashing yellow. Main 2 is capable of all greens for southward UP trains, unlike Main 1.
While K.P. has a fairly good comprehension now (“now”) of UP’s signaling, around 1980 he was flabbergasted at seeing at Toomey in the High Desert of Southern California on the LA&SL a red over arrangement. He had come from vacationing in the Midwest, and so many of UP’s signals there, though rather confusing, had three lamp heads over three lamp heads. It took K.P. years to master that signaling. What has helped is UP going to housings the match the display possibilities, i.e., a two lamb housing for a two color possibilities, etc. K.P. believes what is taking place in modern times at Mojave is that old SP men on Tehachapi are having a hard time grasping the modern UP color light system. After all, they’ve only had to use the old SP target system on the Tehachapi grades since SP days, and it is hard, people say, to teach an old dog new tricks. K.P. knows it is hard to catch on from personal experience. UP now using heads that match the number of lamps actually used goes a long ways toward installers catching on, but anything new is often hard to sink in and master. In another decade, every signal installer on the Tehachapi grades will have caught on and have the UP vision.
Of course, maybe the unused green housings are in anticipation of two-tracking to Fleeta (south of Mojave), but K.P. is NOT betting on that.
An Advance Reply Memo to Paul D. North Jr. (7-29):
That photo of a flyover in El Monte, CA was a bit deceptive. In person it is hardly as steep as a telephoto lens makes it appear as. It is hoped next week a better reply post can be put together for you, including photos. Believe me, Paul, Metrolink and UP trainmen that ‘fly’ over that El Monte bridging have it way easier than trainmen on the Tehachapi grades do. Matter of fact, one area of the Tehachapi Mountains is so treacherous that the siding trains are limited to just 10 M.P.H. If their train was to derail, whatever derailed could land hundreds of feet down a long, long embankment. The El Monte situation is a piece of cakes … Anyway, photos of that piece of cake flyover will be forthcoming maybe next week …
Best,
K. P. HarrierNew Signals in Bakersfield and Exceeding … … the Signal Display Possibilities [snipped - PDN] . . . While at this point in time in Bakersfield it is difficult to second guess the railroad, it would seem the only way around that exceeding the possibilities are three-headed signals, such as the west eastbound signal at CP AL497 BASSETT in the El Monte area of Southern California, on the Sunset Route. K.P. will be paying close attention to what sources convey about the Bakersfield area’s new signals, and then he will pass it along to the forum.
New Signals in Bakersfield and Exceeding …
Sources have advised that in Bakersfield new northbound signals have been erected just railroad north of Kern Jct., for exiting the Bakersfield Yard to UP’s mains.
By comparison, on the south side of Tehachapi Pass, at Mojave, the routing possibilities are WITHIN the possibilities of the two-head signal indications or displays.
However, in the North Bakersfield-Quantico stretch (that includes Kern Jct.), the future routing possibilities seem (“seem”) to EXCEED the possible two-head signal indications or displays in at least two cases.
While at this point in time in Bakersfield it is difficult to second guess the railroad, it would seem the only way around that exceeding the possibilities are three-headed signals, such as the west eastbound signal at CP AL497 BASSETT in the El Monte area of Southern California, on the Sunset Route.
Just a Little Bit More about Bakersfield, CA
A northbound view from Baker Street, at the new “Entrance Signal” at the north end of the Bakersfield Yard:
The old Bakersfield Southern Pacific Depot, while mostly fenced, still is partially used for trainmen’s crew changes.
Above, note the microwave setup on the upper right.
The place is in a sorry state, with numerous broken windows.
It is hard to believe UP uses such a facility for crew changes …
A Minor Correction
In the just past series from a few days ago, this dazzling “old” unit was identified as a General Electric C41-8.
Technically, it is only a C40-8, as are all the other NON-wide nosed units of the class, i.e. UP 9100-9355.
http://www.utahrails.net/up-diesel-roster/up-diesel-roster-70.php
K.P. wonders if the unit will soon be donated to some museum. On the other hand, maybe its prime mover is in good shape, and the unit was painted because it will be with us a long time still … and get to see the partial two-tracking of Tehachapi Pass.
K. P. HarrierApparently, a new high and wide detector is being put in, with each track having its own ‘surrounding the train’ high and wide structure!
Hmmm. There was nothing going on where the detectors are located when I drove out Tehachapi road in January, so it is fresh. It does show up on Google Earth, though, a little east of the 58 overpass.
UPDATE (On further review): Went back and looked at dash camera video from January 20 and saw that the new structure was up and the shelter in place but the structure was not yet populated with detectors as depicted in KP's post. The older high-wide detector was still up to the west and in fact had two UP MOW trucks parked by the shelter. (I notice that the old detector shows up in the most-recent Google Earth image.)
What's even more interesting is that a WB BNSF stack train was going through the detectors at about eleven in the morning, which would have been the only train I saw during daylight hours the two full days we were in town because of extensive MOW activity in the pass. (There were plenty at night, though.)
Update as of Friday, July 17, 2015
Happenings Between and at Both Ends of the Hill
Bakersfield-Mojave, CA
Part XIV (of IX-XIV, Overall I-XIV)
The southbound train soon comes, and it is a BNSF.
K.P. had though a BNSF would get a yellow over lunar as opposed to UP’s getting yellow over yellow to let trains know which way they were going, BNSF’s to Barstow, and UP’s to West Colton Yard or over Metrolink to Los Angeles. But, BOTH routes advance-display yellow over yellow (but that has not been visually verified).
The holding signals are at a CP, as the CP box has a label, SP380 MOJAVE!
Our last stop is at CP SP381 MOJAVE, at least the placard says that, and NOT CP SP380 SOUTH MOJAVE, though the timetable says South Mojave.
So, that is what is going on (or has gone on) on the Tehachapi Pass railroad scene and its slopes.
Part XIII (of IX-XIV, Overall I-XIV)
We arrive in the well-known to railfans and railroaders town of Mojave.
Above, that grade crossing is at Arroyo Ave., M.P.379.43.
The ‘holding signals’ in the above view are next visited.
The Main 2 mast, with southbound to the left:
The Main 1 mast is south a few hundred feet, and near to the Oak Creek Road overpass.
That absolute signal (Main 1) has a yellow over yellow display.
Continued in Part XIV
Part XII (of IX-XIV, Overall I-XIV)
On the east slope, is a CP midway between Tehachapi and Mojave called CP SP370 CAMERON. K.P. doesn’t know what is going on here …
… but the CP has newer color light signals, but has never been converted to a universal crossover, but retains just a single-crossover, a crossover that is only for 25 M.P.H., completely out of harmony with UP standards. CP SP361 TEHACHAPI (M.P. 360.6) at the top of the hill has UP’s standard 30 M.P.H. crossovers, but not Cameron.
It is almost as if there is a dispute between UP and BNSF, and they have locked horns and neither will budge. Maybe (“maybe”) BNSF doesn’t want to pay for UP’s exotic moveable point frogs on 40 or 50 M.P.H. crossovers.
OK. Enough about CP SP370 POSSIBLE LOCKING HORNSVILLE …
M.P. 377.0 is arrived at, the now location of only a detector.
There was before the new mast signals and spacing a famous, well known signal bridge here. The classic structure is gone, and the place seems like it is in a different world.
Continued in Part XIII
Part XI (of IX-XIV, Overall I-XIV)
K.P. thought Monolith would be a good place to photograph the new “two-track” signals, at the Tehachapi Road grade crossing.
The signals are by dragging equipment detectors, as evident by the strike plates between the tracks.
A broader view: If you look good, the crossing gates are coming down. The train was another BNSF.
A box several hundred feet away from the grade crossing may (“may”) triple … for the crossing gates (it does have a grade crossing hotline placard on it), the intermediate signals, and the dragging equipment detector. No other electrical boxes are nearby.
Continued in Part XII
Part X (of IX-XIV, Overall I-XIV)
Yes, a very specific reason! Did you ever see something so stunning that you just were stopped in your tracks? K.P. did because of this:
Apparently, a new high and wide detector is being put in, with each track having its own ‘surrounding the train’ high and wide structure!
A very wide angle, and the electrical detector box:
It didn’t appear to be in service. (Since then, K.P. at his base of operations, near Cajon Pass, has heard the frail, old one ‘sounding off.’)
Continued in Part XI
Part IX (of IX-XIV, Overall I-XIV)
We are now way up towards the top of Tehachapi Pass and a train (just below photo center) is severely dwarfed by the mountains. The freeway is Highway 58.
The below photo is a bit off topic … but, on the plateau east of the town of Tehachapi, a southbound UP passes with a newly painted C41-8, a model from about a quarter of a century ago, decaled with Old Glory! And, these are being retired left and right, but this one has new paint!
And, of course, a BNSF with a high numbered ES44C4 shows up, and passes the new signals, and the high and wide detector that is seen in the background left.
A halfway better view (without a train) of that high and wide detector that has been there for years and years:
But, there is a very specific reason that this ‘everybody knows about’ high and wide detected is shown here! See next post.
Continued in Part X
A KPH style followup:@Wizlish, the Tehachapi project plan has always been to leave Tunnel 10 alone and run the second MT in a cut on the north side. I wouldn't be surprised to see the curves straightened out a little with the fill from the above cut; due to the steep slopes nearby some new retaining walls are likely anyway.@rdamon, the project has been cut back to the two first items due to funding limits and the establishment of the Chavez National Monument. @KPH, the new SP914 could be a mislabel or just another goofy UP way of naming CPs that are close together - think North Montclair and North Montclair. It looks like UP is up to the usual CP consolidation tricks. The new CP just east of Quantico should include both the u/c and the new 'bypass' / yard lead. The other end of the bypass will likely be part of CP??? (west) Kern Jct, maybe. Baker St. is over two miles from Quantico, so it should be long enough to hold those 'no fitters' that UP likes to run. IMHO ....
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
WizlishLooks to me as if, at a minimum, they will daylight 10 (and widen the resulting cut) and perform curve straightening on that reverse curve coming out of the tunnel mouth
2010 timetable says 23 mph speed limit-- so 1 inch superelev would be legal? But maybe if they only have an inch the outer rail wears too fast? In the old days with a 25 mph limit the 10-deg curves mostly? all? had 3 inches.
Part VIII (of I-VIII, Overall I-XIV)
A southbound view of the steep grade on the north (west) slope of Tehachapi Pass, tapering off as it approaches the camera. Note the piles of ballast for the new CP on the lower left.
The new CP will have a universal crossovers arrangement, with WOOD ties on an otherwise concrete tied line. BNSF is notorious for using wooden ties for turnouts, regardless of the speed of the turnout, while a line is otherwise laid with concrete ties!
The fact that the universal crossovers part has wooden ties suggests, at least K.P. sees it that way, BNSF paid for this universal crossover.
This CP, whatever its name will be, will have two CP boxes, the one previously shown on the north (west) side of Oswell Ave., and this one south (east) of the key street.
Another view of that future crossover:
---------
Continued in Parts IX-XIV, to be posted Saturday, July 25, 2015 between 9:00 P.M. and 11:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, and will deal with developments on the south (east) slope of Tehachapi Pass.
Part VII (of I-VIII, Overall I-XIV)
The turnout route appears to be heading for an alignment away from the two mains.
Above, the frog is a spring frog type, one that the turnout route is closed, but the flange opens the frog while going over it.
The above switch is very significant! It is a concrete tied one!
Another view of that partially painted orange cantilever signal base.
Edison Highway parallels the tracks … and that CP box is awaiting its turn at being juiced up!
Continued in Part VIII
Part VI (of I-VIII, Overall I-XIV)
Just railroad south (physically sort of east) of that new cantilever signal base is a new, unactivated yet CP box, and the Oswell Street overpass.
Now, the implication of that CP box’s location is significant. Will the CP be called CP QUANTICO, or perhaps CP OSWELL?
A UP comes by heading southbound and K.P. eyes walking up on the bridge.
On the bridge, looking northbound:
The above manual crossover and yard switch is officially the timetable location of Quantico. Thus, again, will the new CP be called QUANTICO or OSWELL? Good question!
Continued in Part VII
Part V (of I-VIII, Overall I-XIV)
EAST of Kern Jct. a very short ways there is a wye arrangement for a track branching off. K.P. understands that Buttonwillow Sub is operated by the San Joaquin Valley Railroad. The wye connections to the UP are so significant that power switches are being put in!
Above, note the red flags and Kern Jct. signals in the background.
Ballast and supporting ties are also on scene.
Now, we head east just a bit, to a very significant location, to a place called Quantico.
Above, a cantilevered signal-bridge base for a future CP’s west side eastbound signals has been put in, with bright orange paint on it to make sure it is seen!
Piles of ballast are on site too.
Just above, note the not too distant mast signals. They are from the recent signals revamping of the north (west) slope of Tehachapi Pass. That revamping to “two-track” signals has never been fully implemented, and the signals functioning only as “double-track” signals, with the signals activated in only direction per track! Those new signals will soon be done away with the advent of the new CP here.
Continued in Part VI
Part IV (of I-VIII, Overall I-XIV)
At groud level at Kern Jct. itself, at this point in time, the track is basic the same as it has been, but much equipment and ballast is present. And a new CP box is being wired up.
Continued in Part V
Part III (of I-VIII, Overall I-XIV)
K.P. wasn’t going to take the following photos of new power (he thought the series was only 9900-9924, but apparently additional new rebuilt units were added to the 9900 series), and a great ‘sign’ from heaven was seen! A hole in the fence! (Bakersfield really needs to put sidewalks on those bridges.)
We now pause and backtrack for a moment, a southbound view from Baker Street, by the SP Depot. That new unit is seen on the left, and the Kern Jct. signals are seen in the photo center.
At this point in time, NO new Kern Jct. is present, the one with multiple crossovers and signals, just the newer old signals as above. So, in the next year the above view should radically be altered, with more signals and additional track.
Continued in Part IV
Part II (of I-VIII, Overall I-XIV)
By that Beale Ave. overpass, a barbed wire fenced signal department yard is present, and new, pending installation CP (Control Point) boxes are present.
BNSF’s Bakersfield Subdivision (to the Bay Area) starts at M.P. 888.0 and UP’s Kern Jct. in that town is M.P. 313.6, at CP SP314 KERN JCT. To have a new CP box awaiting installation labeled CP SP914 KERN JCT is rather odd, especially since BNSF M.P. 914 isn’t that many miles away.
Continued in Part III
Schedule for “Happenings Between and at Both Ends of the Hill”
Thursday, July 23, 2015 between 9:00 PM. and 11:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, and will deal with the Bakersfield-Quantico area.
Saturday, July 25, 2015 between 9:00 P.M. and 11:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time and will deal with the middle part and eastern slope of Tehachapi Pass.
Part I (of I-VIII, Overall I-XIV)
This presentation will generally be on a north to south basis, and excludes activity already shown to the forum in the Walong-Marcel area (including the Loop).
From Baker Street in downtown Bakersfield, by the old Southern Pacific Depot, looking northbound, a rare, TALL “entrance signal” is seen.
This area was recently converted to color light signals, and the entrance signal is a product of that conversion. Mains 1 and 2 are on the far left.
Looking southbound, power is seen. Such power is off topic for sure, but the view is shown because of the overpass just behind the power.
From aerials K.P. had grandiose plans to hike up on that overpass, the Beale Ave. bridge, and shoot some photos of the new trackwork, but it was found to have NO sidewalks, and pedestrians are prohibited from using the bridge to get to the other side of the tracks. No wonder so many people were crossing the tracks and not paying attention to bright lime signs!
A person or two here at the forum has suggested some great nearby restaurants to chow down at in Bakersfield. But, Bakersfield’s anti-photos from bridges (and there are others) kind of turned K.P. off and he just ate from his sack lunch stash …
Continued in Part II
Some light reading from a 2012 report ..
http://www.dot.ca.gov/dist6/environmental/envdocs/d6/bnsf_track_eir081713final_draft_august2012.pdf
The five segments proposed for double-tracking total 8.34 miles. The total distance of the project, including the five segments, is 25.23 miles through the Tehachapi Trade Corridor. Traveling from west to east, the project would add a second rail segment parallel to existing track (double track) at the following segment locations (listed in order of priority):
• 1.01 miles from Walong to Marcel (mile posts 352.07-353.08)
• 0.34 mile through the Cliff Siding Extension (mile posts 343.30-343.64)
• 1.55 miles from Rowen to Woodford (mile posts 346.40-348.15)
• 2.75 miles from Caliente to Bealville (mile posts 335.29-338.04)
• 2.69 miles from Bena to Ilmon (mile posts 327.85-330.54)
Paul_D_North_JrSo this project is for real, and some serious players are involved. I wouldn't rule out anything from the possible scope of work, unless told otherwise by people who are in a position to know.
Looks to me as if, at a minimum, they will daylight 10 (and widen the resulting cut) and perform curve straightening on that reverse curve coming out of the tunnel mouth -- it looks as if there is still significant superelevation there, which can't be good for track maintenance.
Actually, 2 tanks - there's what appears to be a similar yellow one just behind it - but we can't see if there's a name on that one or not.
I think the tip-off would be the large office trailer and the elevated tank. This looks like, as you say, a serious project.
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