UP Big Boy

[Anonymous]

By way of information, Mr. Bill Gates is a great believer in the rails. Being a knowlegable man who respects history, he knows that the railroad and telegraph were the first steps toward the modern communication and transportation systems which evolved to the internet. He is also one of the major investors in one of the big Canadian Roads (it ain't Pacific) Also, I don't think he would put money into something he could net a good yield on his investment[tup] On the topic of the Big Boy (4000's) Ed King in his feature article in the September "Trains" wrote well about myths, blind eyes, super salesmanship, and a coal road that managed to make lots of money that did not need Big Boys. We have to remember folks that we do not live in the 1940's or 50's. The railroads are now more a business than ever and as both Mr Claytor's were known to say from time to time. "You can't run a railroad on romance." If the railroads were like they were in 1950's today, they would now be a nationalized system, a drain on the nations economy and the nation poorer because of it. [tdn] With that said, no one is a greater fan of the roalroad and its place in the history of this great country of ours than I am. You cannot study American History without studieing the railroad. I agree with Steve Lee @ UP on that one (that's amost a first for a Southern Man) The nice thing however just might be that the railroads might get to skip right into the 21st centrury with new tech comming on line and new minds rising to deploy and make it happen[tup]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by up829

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005


Again the question wasn't about where to run it. I think that it's a common misconception that the Big Boy needed a lot of special right of way considerations, such as extra wide curves and movement of lineside structures. The Challenger wasn't a whole lot smaller, and today 3985 goes almost anywhere on UP's system. As far as I know, UP didn't add extra space between parallel tracks when the Big Boys came into service. The fact that they were only used on one part of the UP system had more to do with efficient use, and servicing facilities than it did with track alignment.

I've read in several sources that UP had to redo the yard lead tracks in Cheyene, increase the clearance on several curves and sidings on Sherman. Probably not major work, but I don't know if railroads would be willing today. When 3985 came to Chicago, I heard there were issues about exceeding bridge capacities or having it sink on soft roadbed on secondary trackage.

But if money is no object, let's restore 2 4000's so they can be double headed on a coal triain [:)][:)] I've talked to the guys at the Il Rwy Museum where they're restoring UP 428 and one of the biggest problems is rebuilding or replacing appliances. Parts could be borrowed from other Big Boys, but one that's been indoors and not vandalized might be the best candidate. As long as we're dreaming, I'd also love to hear a UP 9000 back in steam.[:)]

Now you're getting into the spirit of this conversation. Secondary trackage and weight restrictions on bridges are real issues. When 3985 came to St Paul in 2002, UP's route map and schedule showed it coming via the ex C&NW route of the 400's between Chicago and the Twin Cities (via Milwaukee). But It ended up coming via Des Moines instead, as there was concern about some bridges on the other route.

Most modern mainlines around the US, especially the heavily traveled ones should accomadate the Big Boy. Servicing facilities would be a little tricky to find, however when 3985 came to town, the whole train just backed onto a light industrial track for the layover. When it came to a stop, the crew came out and went to work greasing and oiling.



Parts are definately going to be an issue. With 8 engines on display, in various states of disrepair, one would hope to be able to cobble together a complete one. Some elements would be easy to recreate, and may even be common to other steam engines, others will be unique to the Big Boy. Nobody said a restoration project would be cheap.[swg]

By the way, based on the parts situation, and the fact that it was stored outside for so many yrears, 4005 is probably a "dead dog".

On a happier note, for fans of the large articulateds, the train museum in Duluth Minnesota has a DM&IR Yellowsone on display, who's wheels turn. I think it's powered by compressed air.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005


Again the question wasn't about where to run it. I think that it's a common misconception that the Big Boy needed a lot of special right of way considerations, such as extra wide curves and movement of lineside structures. The Challenger wasn't a whole lot smaller, and today 3985 goes almost anywhere on UP's system. As far as I know, UP didn't add extra space between parallel tracks when the Big Boys came into service. The fact that they were only used on one part of the UP system had more to do with efficient use, and servicing facilities than it did with track alignment.

I've read in several sources that UP had to redo the yard lead tracks in Cheyene, increase the clearance on several curves and sidings on Sherman. Probably not major work, but I don't know if railroads would be willing today. When 3985 came to Chicago, I heard there were issues about exceeding bridge capacities or having it sink on soft roadbed on secondary trackage.

But if money is no object, let's restore 2 4000's so they can be double headed on a coal triain [:)][:)] I've talked to the guys at the Il Rwy Museum where they're restoring UP 428 and one of the biggest problems is rebuilding or replacing appliances. Parts could be borrowed from other Big Boys, but one that's been indoors and not vandalized might be the best candidate. As long as we're dreaming, I'd also love to hear a UP 9000 back in steam.[:)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Whoa guys, this topic was never a contest between different engines. That arguement has been played out over and over again here in the forums. Each railroad's largest steam locomotive was slightly different and was tailored specificly to it's duty on that railroad. The Big Boy is really only most famous because of UP's markrting department at the time.

Again the question wasn't about where to run it. I think that it's a common misconception that the Big Boy needed a lot of special right of way considerations, such as extra wide curves and movement of lineside structures. The Challenger wasn't a whole lot smaller, and today 3985 goes almost anywhere on UP's system. As far as I know, UP didn't add extra space between parallel tracks when the Big Boys came into service. The fact that they were only used on one part of the UP system had more to do with efficient use, and servicing facilities than it did with track alignment.

[BigJim]

The so called BIG BOY would fit inside the boiler of an Allegheny and as for tractive effort it lags behind several locos including the N&W Y6 class.

[GP40-2]

Some comments on the discussion:

Horsepower: No contest here, the H8 wins by a large margin. The H8 had the largest steam producing boiler ever put on a locomotive. Steam locomotives produce their power by volume of steam produced, while increasing boiler pressure mostly just raises the thermodynamic efficiency. So, at 300 lbs pressure the Big Boy might have been more efficient boiler wise, but it could not match the Allegheny's hugh volume of steam.

In terms of true drawbar HP, the Niagara could only muster 5000 hp, not the 6700 Sooblue quoted, the Big Boy was 6000 hp and the Allegheny was around 6600-6700 hp.

The 7500 hp quoted for the Allegheny was just a single point spike in the test, and does not reflect continious conditions.

Tractive Effort: the Big Boy wins this contest for starting tractive effort due to its increased adhesion- 8 drive axles vs. 6 for the H8. The H8, would however have more tractive effort at speed due to its greater HP output.

[Anonymous]

JMHO, but I've never understood how restoring a Big Boy could be practical. The problems would seem to go beyond turntables.

In areas where they operated, UP had to increase clearances on curves, sidings, tunnels so the 4000's wouldn't sideswipe other trains or trackside structures. If a Big Boy were restored, where would they be able to run it? An excursion loco that couldn't tour the country probably doesn't make a lot of sense economically.

Another problem is fuel. The UP never succesfully converted a Big Boy to burn oil. They tried during a coal strike, but the frebox was just too big. Maybe someone today knows more than they did back then, but??? Given the engine's appetite for fuel, running it on coal wouldn't seem to be very practical either.

My $.02 on the Allegheny vs. Bg Boy debate is that they're two very different kinds of beasts for two very different kinds of railroads. Big Boys and Challengers were designed to both start and haul heavy trains at fairly high speeds. UP was a bridge route and hauled lots of perishable freight long distances. Within reason, the faster they could get the trains across the line the better. UP has major lines east and west, but everything goes through Wyoming. So the idea with these engines wasn't maximum T.E. or maximum horsepower it was a balance of both so they could start a heavy train, haul it up the Wasatch & Sherman grades and then wheel it across Wyoming and back downhill again at 80 mph. During WWII U.P. bought some used C&O articulateds and even after upgrades they tied up the line something awful. Considering how long the Big Boys and Challengers ran into the diesel era, the designers got it right.

[eastside]

QUOTE: I wonder what it would cost to build one from scratch these days?

Is there any company that can cast such a large frame still around?

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod

Stated this way, 4012 in Scranton is right at a well-run, active steam restoration operation. Admittedly 3713 has priority... but once she's done, bring on the first draw against that $20M! There is also no problem with politics in extracting the engine from a park, playing politics with UP for operation, etc. etc. etc.

I do have to admit that a Big Boy across Nicholson would be a splendid thing to see.

That sounds good! Maybe one of us should go ask Bill for the money. I'm sure he has given more money to less worthy causes.[swg]

So far we've got one vote for 4004 as the sentimental faforite, home town as it were. And one vote for 4012 as perhaps the logical, most viable player.

By the way, my personal connection is to 4005 in Denver of course. I spent many years in an HO train club in it's shadow. Unfortunately the club is gone, and I've heard that the 4005 was moved across town when the museum moved, and finally is housed indoors. It was in rough shape back then, but I guess it looks much better now. I suspect that it's a mechanical disaster, but money can solve any problem if you have enough of it.[;)]

I wonder what it would cost to build one from scratch these days?[:p]

[Overmod]

Stated this way, 4012 in Scranton is right at a well-run, active steam restoration operation. Admittedly 3713 has priority... but once she's done, bring on the first draw against that $20M! There is also no problem with politics in extracting the engine from a park, playing politics with UP for operation, etc. etc. etc.

I do have to admit that a Big Boy across Nicholson would be a splendid thing to see.

[miniwyo]

I think that the best option would be the 4004 in Cheyenne, it would probably be sent there to get rebuilt any way and the city would still want thier price for it but would know that it would be an even better treasure if it were running for all to see instead of sitting there. I believe that the turntables came about when it was mentioned that there weren't any tunrtables big enough for the Big Boy. The Big Boys are great machines and i am sad that they lived before my time, I would have loved to see them thundering through downtown Rock Springs the way that the diesels do today.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainman70

Why does UP or some rich fellow not restore a Big Boy to working order? I know that it would be expensive, but I think that it would be worth the effort and money to restore one, so people could see the world's largest and most powerful steam locomotive in action once more.

As long as we are going to resurrect a topic that has been dead for almost a year, and was started more than two and a half years ago, let's go back to the original question, which in my opinion was never really totally addressed. We know that the UP has no real interest in restoring a Big Boy, FINE!!!

What if someone came along with $20 million and wanted to make one live again?? Hell, for the sake of arguement, let's say that Bill Gates has just decided to become a railfan, and is backing the project!!![:0][:p][:D][8D][;)][^]

The first question is which one of the 8 remaining locos would be made available for the project? Keep in mind that everything is for sale, FOR THE RIGHT PRICE.

What museum would want to part with their treasure?

Forget about where it could be run!!! To demonstrate a working Big Boy, a suitable track could be found. This whole question is hypothetical and moot until someone takes on the restoration project anyway.

Here are the candidates:

1. 4004 in Cheyenne (City Park)
2. 4005 in Denver (Forney Museum)
3. 4006 in St. Louis (Museum of Transportation)
4. 4012 in Scranton (Steamtown)
5. 4014 in Los Angeles (Pomona Fair Grounds)
6. 4017 in Green Bay (National Railroad Museum)
7. 4018 in Dallas (Age of Steam)
8. 4023 in Omaha (Western Heritage Muesum)

The other 17 were scrapped.[:(]

How did this question ever get into a debate about turntables????[}:)][;)]

Let's have some fun here!!!

[eastside]

QUOTE: Because if its length, it cannot fit on most turntables nor negotiate the curve radius of most wyes.

Didn't the Pennsy S-1 class 6100 have a similar problem? It was 140 feet from end-to-end and weighed 304 tons. The fixed components may have been shorter, though.

BTW, has anyone ever seen a picture of the S-1 running with a passenger train? I never have.

This is one I wi***he PRR had kept for posterity. Like all the other of their magnificent failures, Pennsy scrapped it after too brief a life.

[Anonymous]

About the turntable issue, UP recently overhauled the Cheyenne turntable..it is still in use. As for the restoration of one, the UP wanted a steam engine that could go to various parts of the country without extra trouble. Also the nearest big boy is in a park in Cheyenne, and would have been very expensive to overhaul. Those guys in the steam shop fight hard to keep the program going...and the bottom line is always being looked at. Oftern when the challenger goes out it is made to pull some freight as well.

[Anonymous]

Big Boy was the Longest Articulated (not considering the turbines for N&W and C&O) and was over 8 feet longer than the H-8.

the H-8 was limited to a wheelbase length with tender, of 115 feet, which would allow it to fit on the C&O's turntables.

Engine Weight, regardless of which exact weight the H-8 came it at, still makes it the heaviest articulated (minus the turbines again)

Tractive Effort went to the Big Boy though... as most of the weight on the H-8, came from the firebox back :)

Horsepower.. whether you want drawbar, or at speed... the H-8 dominated..

Loyd L.

[sooblue]

Originally the Big boy was developed to run the eastern grade through weber canyon east of Ogden Ut.
After diesels took over there the Big boy was moved to run between Laramie and Cheyenne Wyoming (Sherman hill)
The claim that the big boy was the largest heaviest and most powerful of all the steam locomotives can be debated.
The 2-6-6-6 Allegheny was heavier, and had a higher tractive effort.
The 4-8-4 Niagara tested out at 6700 hp the Big boy tested at 6000hp.
Back a few years Trains mag. ran an interesting article comparing the big boy to the Allegheny.
The weight of the Allegheny was kept secret for many years because it was falsified at the factory.
Sooblue

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by overland1

I haven't followed this thread all the way, so it may have already been brought, up but does anyone know the status of the Big Boy restoration started in Texas a few years ago for use in a movie?

Anyone with questions about this project can do an advanced search using the words big boy movie. I did this myself and found that a man from the museum there made a post about the movie and answered the questions concering it. The big boy did not move under its own power, it could not because the rods were cut by UP. The reason the movie wasn't made was an issue about a bond the museum wanted to insure the loco could be put back togather if the movie company failed to do so or couldn't. It all came down to money.

[CHESSIEMIKE]

I could be wrong , but I don't think they "fired her up and she moved back and forth 6 or 8 feet". when this locomotive was given by the UP they cut the pistoin rods(or some other part of the running gear) so the cylinders would not overheat during the move to her resting place. I can check my photos to make sure what they cut. I think they moved her with the help of another locomotive.
CHESSIEMIKE

[Anonymous]

Enough with the attitude!!!

[Anonymous]

The "X4018" is at "The Age of Steam Museum"
@ Fair Park, Dallas. It seems I remember reading
in our local rag, that when that project was still
viable that they fired her up and she moved
back and forth 6 or 8 feet. After that the project died because of lack of intrest and funding.

[thirdrail1]

To repeat myself, it died. Lack of money.

[thirdrail1]

It died. Ran out of money.

[Anonymous]

I haven't followed this thread all the way, so it may have already been brought, up but does anyone know the status of the Big Boy restoration started in Texas a few years ago for use in a movie?

[Anonymous]

I haven't followed this thread all the way, but
does anyone know the status of the Big Boy
restoration started in Texas a few years ago for
use in a movie?

[Soo2610]

CP has an active turntable at their engine facility in Bensenville, Il. yard. Takes a telephoto lens to get a good shot of anything on it as access is very limited.

[REDDYK]

My father-in-law, now deceased, told of an incident where a locomotive went on the ground in Indianapolis on a turning wye. All he could recollect was it was a western RR loco, too large for the radius. Reportedly the rail creeled over and it took much effort to re-rail it. Wish I knew whose RR it was. Any historians out there?

[Anonymous]

The turtable is by no means a fading relic. Not only do most of the class ones use them at some facility but new turntables have been built in the last decade. UP,if my memory serves,is particularly keen on these devices.

[BRAKIE]

Man,Its to early in the morning for me to do this.I meant to say in the sring issue of Classic Trains there is a very good article on the big boys.

[BRAKIE]

There is avery nice article in the spring issue of Classic Trains.