You also need to remember this Stainless Steel is VERY EXPENSIVE on its own. When Scrap Steel is going for 200 dollars a Ton and Stainless is going for 1800 a ton there is a huge Cost differance in the metals used. Then you have the Labor costs. Working with Stainless is nothing like regular Steel. The more you work it the Stiffer Stainless gets. Also Passenger cars are not a off the shelf ITEM they are always a custom order. You are not getting a Buick.
Paul MilenkovicLet's see -- $50,000 for a Beth-Gon freight car and 1.5 million for a 110+ MPH baggage car? I can see where a passenger car gets expensive. It needs vestibules, end doors, exit doors, lighting, A/C, destination signs, toilets, low noise level, ultra-smooth ride, PA system and possibly entertainment system, maybe electric outlets and wireless Internet. But 1.5 million for a baggage car? Can't you take some Heritage car and put a better kind of truck on it?
Let's see -- $50,000 for a Beth-Gon freight car and 1.5 million for a 110+ MPH baggage car?
I can see where a passenger car gets expensive. It needs vestibules, end doors, exit doors, lighting, A/C, destination signs, toilets, low noise level, ultra-smooth ride, PA system and possibly entertainment system, maybe electric outlets and wireless Internet. But 1.5 million for a baggage car?
Can't you take some Heritage car and put a better kind of truck on it?
But, Amtrak's goal seems to be more about getting a domestic supplier going than to deliver beneficial equipment, perhaps. I wonder if it would be cheaper to keep the existing 85' baggage cars and pay CAF not to build cars. The Dept. of Agriculture has some expertise in this area. In fact, it may be their core competency.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
blue streak 1Don: I agree but was only going on Boardman's statement that they were good for 90 MPH. Maybe he was thinking about the ones out west?
oltmannd85' converted coach baggage cars should be good for 110mph. Don: I agree but was only going on Boardman's statement that they were good for 90 MPH. Maybe he was thinking about the ones out west? Only place you'd ever need >110mph is NEC, so current baggage fleet would be OK on any train out of Chicago. Is difference between 110 and 125 on LD trains on NEC really much of a capacity issue? Don: from what is happening on the 2 track portion into WASH any train going less than 125 (MARC electrics go that speed) causes all trains to back up. Marc constantly posts delays to their Penn line trains due to Amtrak trains ahead slowing them down.
Don: I agree but was only going on Boardman's statement that they were good for 90 MPH. Maybe he was thinking about the ones out west?
Only place you'd ever need >110mph is NEC, so current baggage fleet would be OK on any train out of Chicago. Is difference between 110 and 125 on LD trains on NEC really much of a capacity issue?
Don: from what is happening on the 2 track portion into WASH any train going less than 125 (MARC electrics go that speed) causes all trains to back up. Marc constantly posts delays to their Penn line trains due to Amtrak trains ahead slowing them down.
blue streak 1 Another consideration is that Bag-Dorms will free up additional sleeper space without increasing train # of cars. The NYP problem of an allowable length of trains of 14 cars means that eventually 1 more coach can be added without exceeding that number. So 1-Bag-Dorm, 9-Coaches, 1-Dinner, 3-revenue sleepers as a possible maximum combination of trains south of WASH. That would be double the capacity of both coach and sleepers for those trains as compared to today's train make-ups. Florida trains are now a big chunk of Amtrak ridership. I now suspect that the new Electric motors that will be ordered will be rated for this 14 car total on the NEC with maybe some degradation of performance. Heritage cars I suspect may have more drag? Bag-Dorms will also decrease the need for electricity on the NEC and diesel fuel south of WASH.
Another consideration is that Bag-Dorms will free up additional sleeper space without increasing train # of cars. The NYP problem of an allowable length of trains of 14 cars means that eventually 1 more coach can be added without exceeding that number. So 1-Bag-Dorm, 9-Coaches, 1-Dinner, 3-revenue sleepers as a possible maximum combination of trains south of WASH. That would be double the capacity of both coach and sleepers for those trains as compared to today's train make-ups. Florida trains are now a big chunk of Amtrak ridership.
I now suspect that the new Electric motors that will be ordered will be rated for this 14 car total on the NEC with maybe some degradation of performance. Heritage cars I suspect may have more drag?
Bag-Dorms will also decrease the need for electricity on the NEC and diesel fuel south of WASH.
Someone PMed me with another problem / question.
Who now builds train interiors?
My airline experience tell me that it takes a long time for interiors to be built for airplanes. Now any airplane interior builder is going to slash every ounce off every component but that should not apply to train interiors. Instead Amtrak is looking for durability. Normally when xyz airline orders a new aircraft type or a major revamping of an interior it may take 2 - 2 1/2 years to get the molds, parts, seats, etc into a manufacturing line.
If it takes a complete re-thinking by interior manufacturers to realize trains are different will that slow down the process? I cannot answer that question. Also how are builders of foreign interiors going to need to adapt to US standards?
Also, there seems to be a whole new market for Amtrak to explore here. If a corridor baggage car was available (extend a Florida train to Boston . . . PLEASE!), think of the possibility of Boston bike riders riding to South Station and then taking their bikes onboard so that they can spend a weekend bicycling around New York City or Washington D.C or Savanah, etc. The possibilities are pretty exciting and unique to Amtrak.
blue streak 1I have no idea how many there are or their car numbers (do you know?) so to be conservative I did not consider them. If both the Eagle and Sunset has them that would eliminate 11 Baggage cars 6 - Eagle, 5 - Sunset (I assumed that both baggage cars went thru from SAS to LAX ( Probably not true and with the SL combines being used). These numbers indicate an excess of baggage cars unless more trains are being planned in the future.
Johnny
oltmanndaegrotatio I sure would like to check baggage to from WAS to NYP and also to BOS, but I can't.Aha! This makes sense...for some of them. Hadn't thought of that.
aegrotatio I sure would like to check baggage to from WAS to NYP and also to BOS, but I can't.
Currently, the overnight train between Boston and Newport News handles checked baggage at Boston, Providence, New Haven, New York, Philadelphia 30th Street, Baltimore, Washington, Alexandria, and Richmond. I am sure that if you are willing to live with this schedule, you can check your baggage as you have said you would like to.
As to in-room toilets, they are convenient. On our trip this spring, we had two day-time legs: New Orleans-Memphis and Denver-Salt Lake City. Because of personal needs, we reserved a bedroom (Superliner) for each leg. Previously, we had used roomettes (a roomette cost less than a lower-level coach seat), but felt we needed something closer this year. Since a roomette normally holds only two people comfortably, it can be convenient for one to leave the room at times.
As to odors at night, I did not notice any either night that I spent in a Viewliner roomette. It is not necessary that you sleep with your head by the head; the berth can be made up with your feet by the head.
Currently, each Viewliner sleeper has a shower for the use of roomette passengers.
Can't imagine new cars having any measurable improvement in rolling resistance or aero drag.
Deggesty blue streak 1A completely on time in the west will require 35 Baggage cars including daily Texas Eagle and Sunset. Are you including the Superliner combines in your calculation? I saw them on the Portland section of the Empire Builder and on the combined Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited this past spring.
blue streak 1A completely on time in the west will require 35 Baggage cars including daily Texas Eagle and Sunset.
Are you including the Superliner combines in your calculation? I saw them on the Portland section of the Empire Builder and on the combined Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited this past spring.
from my post----
No consideration for possible bi-level cars (new or old) having baggage space.
Now ::
I have no idea how many there are or their car numbers (do you know?) so to be conservative I did not consider them. If both the Eagle and Sunset has them that would eliminate 11 Baggage cars 6 - Eagle, 5 - Sunset (I assumed that both baggage cars went thru from SAS to LAX ( Probably not true and with the SL combines being used). These numbers indicate an excess of baggage cars unless more trains are being planned in the future.
Some additional thoughts;
9. A total of 55 Baggage cars and 25 Bag-Dorms = 80 baggage capable cars. The present Amtrak LD schedule calls for.
10. According to news wire the prototype dinner will be the model--we will see. You can bet the prototype would be one of a kind!!!
They need baggage cars because the current fleet is like 60 years old and can't go higher than 90 MPH, and thus cannot be used on most trains on the NEC. I sure would like to check baggage to from WAS to NYP and also to BOS, but I can't.
Speaking of diners, would these be Viewliner diners including the prototype, or something entirely new?
oltmannddakotafred Give me a break -- 130 long-distance cars and only 19 percent, the 25 sleeping cars, for revenue service? We've gotta have the diners, but better that LD crews sleep in (additional) sleeper space than in new dorms. And 55 baggage cars? C'mon! I've seen the business out of those cars, and they could be dropped altogether -- along with the TBM or whatever they call him these days -- with great savings and inconvenience to very few. Oltmannd and dakotafred: See the below Re: Money and Heritage car speeds. I agree but a concerted effort to lower operating costs still hangs over Amtrak. The maintenance of converted steam heat and air conditioned cars is about twice of an Amfleet car due to custom built parts. Laying crews over in hotels would increase operating costs also. Note that 130 cars are only half of what Amtrak wants (65 cars per year = 260 over 4 years) Instead of critical comments at least a first order is placed and if funding comes thru then the other 130 cars can be ordered. . Write your congressmen. The name of the game in LD rail travel, so far as I have observed, is sleeping cars. Agree that it is puzzling why so much money is going to non-revenue space. Don't get the need for baggage cars at all. Sort of understand the diners. Don't get the need for dorm space,either. They should rotate the on board staff on and off like the train crew. Let'em sleep in a hotel.
dakotafred Give me a break -- 130 long-distance cars and only 19 percent, the 25 sleeping cars, for revenue service? We've gotta have the diners, but better that LD crews sleep in (additional) sleeper space than in new dorms. And 55 baggage cars? C'mon! I've seen the business out of those cars, and they could be dropped altogether -- along with the TBM or whatever they call him these days -- with great savings and inconvenience to very few. Oltmannd and dakotafred: See the below Re: Money and Heritage car speeds. I agree but a concerted effort to lower operating costs still hangs over Amtrak. The maintenance of converted steam heat and air conditioned cars is about twice of an Amfleet car due to custom built parts. Laying crews over in hotels would increase operating costs also. Note that 130 cars are only half of what Amtrak wants (65 cars per year = 260 over 4 years) Instead of critical comments at least a first order is placed and if funding comes thru then the other 130 cars can be ordered. . Write your congressmen. The name of the game in LD rail travel, so far as I have observed, is sleeping cars.
Give me a break -- 130 long-distance cars and only 19 percent, the 25 sleeping cars, for revenue service?
We've gotta have the diners, but better that LD crews sleep in (additional) sleeper space than in new dorms. And 55 baggage cars? C'mon! I've seen the business out of those cars, and they could be dropped altogether -- along with the TBM or whatever they call him these days -- with great savings and inconvenience to very few.
Oltmannd and dakotafred: See the below Re: Money and Heritage car speeds. I agree but a concerted effort to lower operating costs still hangs over Amtrak. The maintenance of converted steam heat and air conditioned cars is about twice of an Amfleet car due to custom built parts. Laying crews over in hotels would increase operating costs also. Note that 130 cars are only half of what Amtrak wants (65 cars per year = 260 over 4 years) Instead of critical comments at least a first order is placed and if funding comes thru then the other 130 cars can be ordered. . Write your congressmen.
The name of the game in LD rail travel, so far as I have observed, is sleeping cars.
Sort of understand the diners.
Don't get the need for dorm space,either. They should rotate the on board staff on and off like the train crew. Let'em sleep in a hotel.
The new viewliner type cars Amtrak has ordered has produced many misconceptions and mis- understandings. For want of an official name I’ll call them Viewliner – 2s. The order is for 25 each Sleepers, dinning cars, Baggage – Dorms and with 55 Baggage only cars. Total of 130 cars delivered 2012-2015 averaging 35-42 cars per year.
The first item is financials. Amtrak does not have a congressional appropriation for the cars as of yet. That required Amtrak to use excess 2010 revenue to finance the down payment for the -2s construction. So far thru May Amtrak has a favorable revenue over forecast of $65.1M. FY 2010 forecast is $67.3M but of course is subject to many unknowns. The -2 contract is for $298.1M with a non-refundable down payment of $29.8M. The remaining $268.3M will have to be appropriated or borrowed. These numbers leave a possible $37.5M for other rolling stock items. Amtrak has stated they are now reviewing bids for replacement electric motors and want to order more bi-level cars this FY (Superliner type). Those orders will probably absorb most of the remaining surplus $37.5M revenue projection. More cars if Amtrak can get other contracts with 10% down payments. If Congress appropriates more; or Amtrak can get loans (not a good idea IMHO) then Amtrak may be able to increase their orders. Amtrak wants delivery of 65 single level cars and 35 bi-level cars a year for the foreseeable future (2019?)
This order averages $2.24M per car which is below the $3.5 estimated for single level cars. Of course the order to build 55 Baggage and 25 Baggage-Dorms skews the figures. A wag for Baggage at $1.5M, Bag-Dorms $2.M, and Sleepers -- dinners at $3.5M comes close to the $298M figure
Second is a delivery schedule.
The cars will need to be tested at the Pueblo test track. So the first cars manufactured should be 2 – 5 baggage cars (maybe as many cars as a full train configuration to check various dynamic interactions between the new cars and between new and old). The cars will need to be tested to about 5-10% over their final rated top speed. By using baggage cars they can be ballasted and tested according to the different interior configurations that will load the cars.
Now the order of various deliveries.
Heritage cars are a real liability. All are limited to 110MPH or less which now only is applicable to the NEC. So schedules for trains that go south of NYP- WASH with baggage cars are limiting their NEC schedules which then restricts fluidity on the NEC. To replace the heritage cars on the NEC would require 20 each dinners and baggage or bag-dorms; a total of about 4 each dinners and baggage for Meteor, Star, Crescent, and Cardinal if it goes daily. 2/10ths spares are included. I have been privately informed that some heritage baggage cars do not track well above 90MPH and are assigned to the western trains as a consequence.
Baggage dorms for east coast trains are a good idea so that sleeper space can be freed up to allow more sleeper passengers and also as an alternate to supply the required baggage space on the above trains. Eventually the 5 additional Bag-dorms & dinners can be assigned to the Lake Shore as CSX track is upgraded. Higher speed baggage cars will be needed for the future west coast trains whose cars (except Heritage Bag cars) are already certified for 125MPH with first the Texas Eagle receiving them because of the CHI-STL 110MPH upgrade already under contract on UP.
The additional 25 dinning cars will provide for old heritage dinner spares when very high loads on any train requires a second dinner.
25 Sleepers goes without saying as sleeper loads keep increasing thru May 2010
Hopefully if bi-level cars are also ordered some single level coach cars can be freed up on Midwest trains to be reassigned to east coast trains.
DutchrailnutThe AEM7DC is worn out, and parts are no longer available, even NJT is replacing its ALP-44's, upgrading to AC propulsion is almost as much as new locomotive, yet your still stuck with a 26 year old chassis and trucks. And I like to hear your expertise on how you determine that these engines are good for another 20 years, please elaborate.
The AEM7DC is worn out, and parts are no longer available, even NJT is replacing its ALP-44's, upgrading to AC propulsion is almost as much as new locomotive, yet your still stuck with a 26 year old chassis and trucks.
And I like to hear your expertise on how you determine that these engines are good for another 20 years, please elaborate.
beaulieuBaggage cars are for both Eastern and Western services, the new law requiring Amtrak to transport guns in checked baggage may be a factor. All the rest of the cars are for Eastern services to replace the worn out Heritage fleet.
Baggage cars are for both Eastern and Western services, the new law requiring Amtrak to transport guns in checked baggage may be a factor. All the rest of the cars are for Eastern services to replace the worn out Heritage fleet.
Quick math says that the 55 baggage cars represent just under $100 million dollars of the order, if one figures they will be a little less expensive than the cars with nicer interiors. Amtrak will need to haul a lot of gun toting passengers for that investment to pay off. Maybe a lock box in the loco or reuse of some of the express box cars they eliminated a few years back would serve that purpose at a much lower cost.
Jay
I don't understand the need for new electric locomotives either. The AEM-7 could rund another 20 years if well maintained. Amtrak does not speak of additional engines.
you obviously never rode in a cramped renaisance car.
and no Amtrak has no plans to get into mail or ups business again.
it caused big problems with freight carriers where that business belongs.
As for US mail they no longer have rail facilities for mail by train.
The only logic I can see that might be there is that they intend to get back into the mail handling services again and perhaps running services for UPS, Fed Ex and US Postal Services, etc. Whether or not that will work is a debate unto itself. I would have thought they would be more interested in purchasing more coach cars but with greater leg room such as the Renaissance cars that VIA Rail bought.
garrRemember Amtrak is a quasi government operation, what would be prudent for a corporation in the free enterprise system does not apply. I learned a long time ago, trying to rationalize "business" decisions by anyone in government is futile. What we mere peons, otherwise known as voters(i.e. the elected officials' bosses, however, in their minds, subjects) believe is rational does not apply.
Remember Amtrak is a quasi government operation, what would be prudent for a corporation in the free enterprise system does not apply.
I learned a long time ago, trying to rationalize "business" decisions by anyone in government is futile. What we mere peons, otherwise known as voters(i.e. the elected officials' bosses, however, in their minds, subjects) believe is rational does not apply.
dakotafredGive me a break -- 130 long-distance cars and only 19 percent, the 25 sleeping cars, for revenue service? We've gotta have the diners, but better that LD crews sleep in (additional) sleeper space than in new dorms. And 55 baggage cars? C'mon! I've seen the business out of those cars, and they could be dropped altogether -- along with the TBM or whatever they call him these days -- with great savings and inconvenience to very few. The name of the game in LD rail travel, so far as I have observed, is sleeping cars.
The real decision makers in this case overrule a foamer in how its done.
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