Signal Conversions on LA&SL’s Cima Hill ...
... and What It Could Mean for the Sunset Route
Part “E” (of A-H, Overall A-P)
That WEST end of the north siding is revealing. But first, look what is there, the old and new east side westbound signals.
Hidden from the above view is the north siding’s current west end east side westbound signal on a short, laddered mast.
Now, a key photo: On the left is Main 2’s WESTBOUND only intermediate signal. It has NO counterpart. It was put up, K.P. recalls, in the Drew Lewis era, where every third siding was extended to in the neighborhood of 9000 feet. Since the grade lowers dramatically here west, trains stop at that signal, even though it is a number plated intermediate and it can be passed. It has a red “X” on it, and will be eliminated. No replacement signal has been erected, at least not yet, but likely it will not be replaced.
The most significant, though, is the north siding’s lower color light head. It has TWO lamps! So, the north siding, which is only 6626 feet in length, will function as does the south side Main 2, which trains can enter on a red over YELLOW, and NOT a red over flashing red!
Continued in Part F
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Signal Conversions on LA&SL’s Cima Hill …
Part “F” (of A-H, Overall A-P)
The west end of the Cima trackage, from the east:
Above, it doesn’t appear that Main 1’s (right) signal has been erected yet.
That same CP from the west side:
Looking eastbound, Main 1’s east side westbound old signal is visible. Workers are also visible.
West side eastbound new and old signals:
Continued in Part G
Is an LED signal limited to one colour aspect simply because it has only one head?
There is a two single head signal at a crossover at Redfern, one station from Sydney Terminal. This normally displays two reds since it is aimed at trains running wrong direction on the northbound "up main". The main train to use this track in this direction is the once or twice weekly "Indian Pacific" which berths in two adjacent platforms at Sydney Terminal, but when combined just before departure stretches beyond the previous crossover to get to the southbound "down main". Last Saturday the train had yellow NR18 (4000HP GE) and DL42 (3000 HP EMD) and about 24 cars.
While waiting for a photo of the Indian Pacific making this move, I had observed the signal displaying two reds and wondered what it displayed as a clear indication. Minutes before departure (about 1455 for a 1505 departure) both red LED lamps turned to yellow (yellow over yellow for an adjacent crossover to be taken dead slow).
I have read regarding model trains that a single LED can display green with DC in one polarity, red with the opposite polarity and amber (well, a greeny yellow) when AC is applied lighting both red and green.
I assume these two single heads are so equipped. Since that signal is the limit of travel for a down train on the up line, I dont expect to see either head showing green, sadly.
But this is surely an option for any LED signal....
M636C
Part “G” (of A-H, Overall A-P)
At the east end of the Chase siding, a new CP box and signals are on site:
The east end of the Chase sidings has eastbound signals with two-lamp lower head for yellow over yellow as an advance indication for back at the west switch of the Cima end of two-tracks.
Above, that short poled target signal (left) was in a memorable Richard Steinheimer photo in TRAINS some 50 plus years ago.
Looking east, the west end of the Chase siding:
The above photo was shot from a grade crossing west of the CP.
The old intermediates between Chase and Elora:
Above, the right signal years ago was on the other side of the tracks. They are on borrowed time now.
These signals too, when across from each other and not back to back, have been featured in TRAINS Magazine of decades ago.
Another tidbit: Did you notice that those signals have NO lower head, for like yellow over yellow to go into the next siding? For some reason these signals have never been upgraded to have lower heads. But, it does give us a bit of the historical past. Both the LA&SL (as here) AND the Sunset Route decades ago didn’t have lower heads on signals for an advance notice of a turnout route ahead.
Continued in Part H
Part “H” (of A-H, Overall A-P)
At CP C248 ELORA, the east side westbound signal:
As above, here too, the lower head (of the new signal) only has one diode light, for red and flashing red.
The west side eastbound signals:
Currently, the siding has a short mast target signal.
---------
Continued in Parts I-P to be posted Wednesday, September 16, 2015 by 6:00 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, which posting will cover the new signaling between Elora and Kelso. Then, at the end of the series an application to the Sunset Route will be made. Also, one CP had turned aside signals lit, even one of those LOWER single-lights, thus leaving no doubt what color such-like heads will display, RED!
Hopefully, Tuesday, September 15, 2015, brief update material on both the Clay St. and Riverside Ave. underpasses in construction in Riverside, CA can be posted about. Is something that falls apart ever good news? Even more of those mystery boxes at the Colton Signal Dept. in Colton are on site now, but one of the old ones fell apart, and it now can be said definitely what is in them!
Odds and Ends for September 10 and 12, 2015
Part I (of I-IV)
Contents of One of the Mysterious Crates Exposed!
Colton Signal Dept.
Colton, CA
At the Colton Signal Dept. more and more of the mysterious crates are being brought to the site. There are now 19 crates thereat. One wooden box, apparently because of weather rot, has fallen apart exposing its contents, a switch motor!
So, now we all know what is inside those boxes!
Additional photos, about that increasing line of boxes:
Continued in Part II
Part II (of I-IV)
More photos about that increasing line of boxes:
In that last photo above, a lone SD70ACe (UP 8489) leads a westbound (leftward) double-stack train. A DPU was on the rear end of the slow moving train.
In that middle photo above, that line of boxes goes halfway across the fenced yard now!
That never put in service new CP box placarded CP AL525 GUASTI has been at the Colton Signal Dept. for about four years now.
Maybe it had something to do with the railroad accounting towards the Milliken Ave. flyover that began construction about that time.
Interestingly, the new Vineyard Ave. underpass bridge-work AND aerials of the south side Guasti siding just east of the Archibald Blvd. underpass bridge-work suggest that the siding will be extended westward, possibly to west of Vineyard Ave.
Continued in Part III
Part III (of I-IV)
The Clay Street Underpass
Riverside, CA
New track has been laid on the LA&SL’s original alignment, and the shoofly has been taken out of service, though it is still in place.
Looking eastbound, a fence now follows the track for a short ways.
The city of “Jurupa Valley” imprinted on the bridge-work is now clearly seen under this lighting condition.
Continued in Part IV
Part IV (of I-IV)
The Riverside Ave. Underpass
Looking south:
The northeast walling is very think.
On the northeast side, looking north:
A down-on look from the northeast side.
This will conclude the series.
Rubio Wash made this evening's news (Alameda Corridor East - San Gabriel). Good view of the new, lower bridge bents and the washed-away back yards of two houses on Pondosa. The temporary flood wall wasn't up to the flow rate.
A10
The Rubio Wash Disaster
Tuesday, September 15, 2015
San Gabriel Trench
Near San Gabriel, CA
Forum contributor SP357E44 first alerted us to the situation close to two hours ago. Below are photos that were taken back on July 3, 2015, about two and a half months ago, the first one never shown to the forum before. The wall on the left is what collapsed.
K.P. was under the impression that a more secure wall would be built, but apparently not. Thus, it is not surprising that the heavy rain today collapsed the wall (left).
K.P. previously was under the impression a heavy cement wall would direct water under the right bridge in the photo below, but I guess that wasn’t what designers of the project had in mind.
A Pasadena [CA] Star News LINK was attempted, but it doesn't seem to be compatible with the TRAINS website, so copy and paste the below address into your browser. The site had a photo of the house next to the wash in a precarious position:
http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/general-news/20150915/house-teeters-near-san-gabriel-due-to-rain-damaging-wall-embankment
In a situation like this, time is of the essence. If any other storms follow, the shoofly bridging itself could be washed away, totally severing the original Sunset Route for days and days.. If such happened undoubtedly the railroad would have the preeminent power to supersede the contractor or even the Alameda Corridor East people. But, at this point, things seem to be halfway under control. It should be interesting to watch what now develops.
Part “I” (of I-P, Overall A-P)
The east end of Elora again, and overview:
The west end of Elora at CP C247 ELORA (M.P. 246.7), the east westbound signals:
There will be NO intermediates between Elora and the next siding, Dawes. Note that the lower heads, above, have TWO lamps.
The west side eastbound signal is on the other side of a bridge at Elora.
Above, in the 1960’s, the famed photographer Richard Steinheimer climbed up on that signal and photographed a westbound domed streamliner up real close coming at him. Cool photo. Too bad those types of photos can’t be done in this day and age.
Continued in Part J
Part “J” (of I-P, Overall A-P)
At the eastern end of the Dawes siding:
The east westbound signal:
Above, note that the lower color light head has two lamps. So, the Dawes siding will be able to be entered at 30 M.P.H. on a red over yellow, unlike the 15 M.P.H. red over flashing red back at Elora. The old box:
Above (first photo), the old highway parallels the LA&SL all the way between Cima and Kelso. To pace the UP 844 or UP 3985 steamers through here is spectacular!
Continued in Part K
Part “K” (of I-P, Overall A-P)
But, the new, turned aside signals at the east end of the Dawes siding were special for us, as they were actually lit!
The last two photos confirms a single lower head under these conditions is red, for red over red, or red over flashing red, the latter as an advance signal that the next siding is lined into. A lined ahead advance signal here would be yellow over flashing red!
The last photo above, note the old, short mast target siding signal.
In the first two photos above, a red over yellow is possible. The siding is 9025 feet long.
Additionally, the diode light is not of the small diode cluster type, but the large diode type.
Continued in Part L
Part “L” (of I-P, Overall A-P)
The west switch location of the Dawes siding, at CP C242 DAWES, looking eastbound:
Just a bit to the west is the east switch of the Hayden siding.
The west eastbound signals of the Hayden siding: The old small mast target signal looks to tiny in height. The lower color light heads have two positions each, for a yellow over yellow display when the Dawes siding to the east (left) is lined into.
Continued in Part M
Part “M” (of I-P, Overall A-P)
Still by the west switch of CP C242 HAYDEN, the east side westbound signals:
The west switch of Hayden, note the lower, single light lamp, for red over flashing red to go into the siding, regardless if it is occupied or clear.
According to the lower heads in the top photo above in this Part, there will be NO intermediate signal between Hayden and Kelso with the new signals. Presently, old, old color lights are midway between those CP’s.
Those LA&SL old COLOR LIGHT signals above are quite a contrast to the Sunset Route, that even today on the remaining single-track still uses from days long gone old target intermediate signals.
Continued in Part N
Part “N” (of I-P, Overall A-P)
The east switch of the Kelso sidings, at CP C237 KELSO, looking westbound:
From the west, looking eastbound:
The new mainline signal (right) is quite a ways from the original signals position.
The main’s mast signal will be used the most, with the signals on the cantilever structure used only occasionally as siding signals.
Continued in Part O
Part “O” (of I-P, Overall A-P)
We arrive at Kelso proper, by the famous old historic depot that has been preserved.
Looking back east, towards that cantilever signal bridge we were just by. The flat desert dramatically starts climbing, giving the hill in Cima Hill meaning.
Above, how about all that jointed rail on the sidings!
Looking west:
Continued in Part P
Part “P” (of I-P, Overall A-P)
Signals and trailers are prolific.
In the last photo above, old signals and the CP box from CP C204 CRUCERO was present, which box was from several sidings to the west (right).
Relevance to the Sunset Route
Will the new red over flashing red signaling be used now on sidings that are kept with the two-tracking of the Sunset Route? On the large portions of single-track in Arizona that remain to be two-tracked, will the signal upgrades for Positive Train Control accelerate the two-tracking, or will UP re-signal the remaining single-track to meet the December 2018 deadline and then revamp the new signaling when the future two-tracking is finally done sometime afterwards? Some tough decisions will have to be made, and whatever is decided will affect the remaining two-tracking enormously one way or another.
Here's the newspaper link on the Rubio Wash flood:
Sucks for the homeowners, but I'll bet that ACE buys their house - cheaper than lawsuit + rebuilding.
To give the above (slightly OT ) Cima sub pics some geographic context, here's a map: http://goo.gl/maps/BlB7y Too bad there isn't enough traffic for UP to justify building the Cima Hill 2MT (that they got an approved EIR for).
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
That is not the permanent wall intended to complete the project but a temporary piece. Predicting weather more than three weeks away isn't realistic so when they took the original sloping floor and adjacent walls out to rebuild them they didn't expect to be dealing with high water in September. Also note that the Huy Fong Foods building no longer extends over the wash and the housing on the west side has already risen in it's place.
KP Your Rubio wash pictures might be gold plated. Can imagine that the pictures might be needed in future court actions. As well all your other post rejects. See you in court and a report.
An item that puzzles. This year's El Ninio has been forecast to be earlier and maybe the strongest in many a decades. Why did the contractor(s) for Rubio not hurry to finish the work due to this forecast ?
The rain really hit Utah as well. Any LA & SL damage there ?
Gentlemen:
Thanks for the updates on the Rubio Wash incident. While the issues were different than the situations previously discussed here in the Forum, it is interesting that our comments and KP's reports were focused on the exact same spot under similar conditions.
The photos on the link to the San Gabriel Valley Tribune seem to indicate that there was a substantial drop in the bed of the Wash at the same spot where it makes an almost 90-degree turn to the south and goes under the railroad. It will be interesting to see if the final design has the drop immediately upstream from the railroad bridge or if it is more gradual transition.
A gradual change in slope would seem more logical, but a "waterfall" just north of the Trench would (I guess) be a lot less work and cost. It would seem that making the bed of the Wash steeper would speed up the water and put more stress on the lining and any abutments-- and now the site has a history of wash-outs.
--John
Another Rubio Wash Link
This one is from the Los Angeles Times.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-gabriel-storm-home-collapse-20150916-story.html
A Memo to M636C (9-14):
You asked,“Is an LED signal limited to one colour aspect simply because it has only one head?” As far as the Union Pacific and the Sunset Route is concerned, I pretty much think so.
Over forty years ago I wired up a model train layout for signaling. It was crude, to say the least, and sweet and simple. Being so proud of my accomplishment, my bubble soon burst when I found a red signal turned yellow, and a yellow signal turned green seemingly by itself, and for no apparent reason! What was happening was the current was backtracking a roundabout way, giving false signal indications. I soon scrapped the effort as impractical, or at least without great additional cost. Live and learn, they say …
With diode lights that show multiple colors according to the direction of the DC current, or even a different color with AC, it would seem the failsafe nature that the real railroads demand could be compromised with some type of electrical current backtracking too. If a model signal fails or otherwise compromises operations, who cares? But, in the real world of railroading, there is no margin for error. The color of signals has to be absolute.
In some cases a non-Class 1 railroad may use something cheap and jerry-rigged with little danger, but I think you’ll find the Class 1’s have to have something that is absolutely reliable, and they limit themselves to using absolute things, at least for signals.
Other Replies and Things …
K.P. hopes to get to other replies soon, if nothing overly significant arises to delay getting to them.
Right now there are things happening seemingly everywhere involving a number of areas and threads. And, K.P. is unsure which one, ones, if any, can be gotten to, nor when.
Best,
K.P.
KP-
Have a question about a rail line a little further south. What is the current status of the San Diego to El Centro line? How much is operatable? Briefly what are the future plans? I have seen several names for this line and do not know which is current hence the generic name. What I have seen from various sources is very confusing. A little enlightment for a Texan is requested.
This is the old San Diego and Arizona Eastern which is still in place it not being operated. Talk for years about being reopened but don't hold your breath. Could be used for traffic from Mexico. Lots of talk about fraud with the operators. Look at the San Diego Union Tribune or UT newspaper.
blue streak 1 KP Your Rubio wash pictures might be gold plated. Can imagine that the pictures might be needed in future court actions. As well all your other post rejects. See you in court and a report. An item that puzzles. This year's El Ninio has been forecast to be earlier and maybe the strongest in many a decades. Why did the contractor(s) for Rubio not hurry to finish the work due to this forecast ? The rain really hit Utah as well. Any LA & SL damage there ?
The example I quoted was on a government owned and operated system which is well known for its very conservative and safety oriented approach. It is on the main entry to the largest passenger station in the entire continent.
Faulty wiring or incorrect logic in the system can cause signals with multiple single colour displays to fail.
Using LEDs with multiple colours is no less safe than a searchlight signal whose rotating disc could fail or whose lenses could fall out giving an incorrect indication.
This particular signal will display red on both lamps for seven days a week except for about fifteen minutes on each of two days per week, Wednesday and Saturday. It may be regarded as a test of the technique for eventual use elsewhere (such as conversion of searchlight signals), although that operator (Sydney Trains) has never used them. Most signals have five LEDs in two triple heads with three colours at top and two (red and green) below. Signals at junctions have six LEDs with a lower amber to give amber over amber aspect for turnouts.
I was amazed as anybody when I realised what the display did. I think I have photos of the signal showing both aspects taken two to three years ago. I just happened to be there again last Saturday at the critical time and remembered it all.
K. P. HarrierA Memo to M636C (9-14): You asked,“Is an LED signal limited to one colour aspect simply because it has only one head?” As far as the Union Pacific and the Sunset Route is concerned, I pretty much think so.
K. P. HarrierWith diode lights that show multiple colors according to the direction of the DC current, or even a different color with AC,
... isn't how they are done.What a multi-colour head has is multiple independent LED grids inside it, one of each colour required, each of which has separate connections. There's no possibility for failure or backtracking - railways don't tolerate that kind of stuff.Here's a widely deployed example:http://www.unipartdorman.co.uk/Product%20bulletins/rail/Colour%20Light%20Signal.pdfThey call them 'four aspect' because the aspect sequence for the railway they were designed for is R-Y-YY-G. The hardware has the ability to display all three colours from every lens, even though the railway in question doesn't use that feature.
Replies
jeffhergert (9-2):
Your authoritative post was a mouthful, and puts things into perspective for the forum.
jeffhergert ... searchlight type signals aren't compatible (at least legally) for PTC. The requirement is for signals without moving parts. The searchlight types have a colored vane that moves in front of the single bulb to give the desired aspect ...
... searchlight type signals aren't compatible (at least legally) for PTC. The requirement is for signals without moving parts. The searchlight types have a colored vane that moves in front of the single bulb to give the desired aspect ...
Key was that movable signal parts were outlawed (as in the searchlight type that utilizes a movable “colored vane”).
It has well been said that a picture is worth a thousand words. But, I say your post gave us a picture of what the reality is, and that is worth more than a thousand words.
Thanks, Jeff!
SP357E44 (9-2):
On the Perris Valley Line between Riverside and Perris (CA), I didn’t see a post contribution by you on the “Perris Valley Line Updates” thread on what you found out on the PVL. I take it you didn’t find much, like I haven’t found much either of late.
What is left of the CURRENT two-tracking of the Sunset Route (like in the Mohawk, AZ area) seems to have slowed down too. In my last trip to Arizona, in that Mohawk area last month, in the cutover of that area old target signals were left standing, though the heads obviously were turned aside. In the past UP personnel seemed to be in a hurry to take down such old signals. But, now, it is like a skeleton crew will get to them when they can.
Pete-M3 (9-5):
Great hearing from you, Pete, and what you’ve seen in the Houston area!
Addressing your last post …
Yes, there are a number of grade separations in process (and planned) between Los Angeles and Banning.
The in process San Gabriel Trench construction is an eastward extension of the Alhambra Trench.
What has been heard is that the CP AL521 NORTH ONTARIO to CP AL533 SIERRA (Ontario-Fontana, CA) stretch is scheduled to be two-tracked around the first of the year (and will probably last for a year).
The two-tracking between Colfred and a few miles east of the old Mohawk, in Arizona, is nearing, if not already at, completion.
It is unknown if any other two-tracking has started or is in preparation. Sometime in the next couple of months I hope to get back to Arizona and check westward from Estrella (the end of two-tracks from El Paso) and westward into California.
As mentioned recently, UP faces a decision on that Estrella to Yuma stretch, and a few gaps in California, whether they will two-track that whole stretch, or just convert the signals to conform to Positive Train Control legislation. My gut tells me UP will forgo the two-tracking and just re-signal the remaining parts of the Sunset Route, delaying the two-tracking for years.
traisessive1 (9-7):
Up in Canada, how does a dispatcher stop a train if a signal can’t be a stop signal? I don’t think the Sunset Route will ever get that bizarre …
BNSF6400 (9-7):
Oh, yes, the Field siding (on the LA&SL about midway between Yermo, CA and Las Vegas, NV) is a controlled siding, and has been such for years and years. A track occupancy for the siding has always shown up on the dispatcher’s screen (or board in years past), and will continue to do so. The difference with the new signals is that the SIGNAL circuitry is skeleton-like, hence, el cheapo. Since the government is forcing the railroads to spend money, the railroads will cut corners wherever they can.
But, the government surely has no idea what it has gotten itself into. I’ll bet my boots, BNSF6400, that in a few years the public outcry will be overwhelming and angry at all the slow moving trains at grade crossings involving sidings. The public will shake their fists at the railroads, and the railroads will say in return that their congressperson is the culprit. Should be captivating to see what a public outcry will result in …
John Simpkins-Camp (9-11):
That cool photo that looks like a painting looks like a painting because it IS a painting! It took me two hours to hang that huge canvas up across the road …
Just kidding … That cool photo looked cool because the area is a cool place. Twenty-five to thirty years ago I was all stressed out, and in the morning my wife (the same one as today, by the way) suggested I go train watching for the day way out in that area. That I did. When I got home that evening, my wife exclaimed, “What happened? You look so good!” That cool place is good for the soul … and my wife will attest to that too!
SP357E44 (9-16):
I don’t know if my eyes are playing tricks on me or not, but aerials of that Rubio Wash and the Sunset Route area (satellite view shot some time ago) show just a basic THROUGH-wash, but my photo files show a wye type wash arrangement. Next time I’m out that way I’m going to look for another leg to that wash.
blue streak 1 (9-16):
Having in the past visually seen that Rubio Wash at the UP track in person, I was under the impression the canal walling would be relocated so things there could be rearranged, with the falloff south of the track moved to the north side, then the route of the water flow restored. I apparently put too much faith that the highly educated project planners had common sense. They, however, must have flunked or passed over the Southern California rain class in their college days, and the project is now paying the price. They are probably from New York, and truly believe it never rains in Southern California. I’ve lived in Southern California all my life, and it does NOT rain often. But, when it does, look out!
ccltrains (9-17):
In attempting to reply to YOU with a link, the TRAINS website malfunctioned again and screwed-up my computer!
I’ll try later …
(I wonder if Kalmbach gives out FREE TRAINS Magazine subscriptions as a compensation for screwing up people’s computers.)
BrushKestrel (9-18):
Why are all these new posters coming from the United Kingdom? Is TRAINS Magazine advertising heavily in England now? … Oh, welcome aboard! It’s great to have you join us.
I think your post’s emphasis is on single light diodes that can show multiple aspects.
Because accidents happen, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) here in the United States often investigates them. A single signal light that could display multiple colors is fascinating, but that would add another layer to accident investigations, thus complicating matters and prolonging costly investigations.
Here in Southern California, some 25-30 years ago, one of the cities had a traffic light (for autos) that had a right turn arrow light that could display both green and yellow. It was a cool signal to watch, and every time I saw it I thought of railroad target signals. But, eventually it was taken down, and a traditional head replaced it. Such a multi-aspect head never caught on. It must have been a nightmare for colorblind people. And, in America, I question whether such an application among Class 1 railroads would ever result.
The current color light fad is just too simple and trustworthy for the railroads to test something more complicated.
Take care all,
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