I just got thru reading the whole section of this. Am I to understand that the house is trying to make it where railroads can not call train service back until 10 hours off. Dont most railroads now a days give you an off day at least once a week. I know some dont, but dont most Class 1's. Any Comments. Would like to hear from some others.
I think it would be a good and bad thing at the same time. Good since they are correct, family problems do cause a big problem with trying to sleep during the day. Bad for the railroads at sometime. Having to make sure a train gets to a terminal before the 12 hours, or at least already taxied back to the terminal within there 12 hours.
railroadjj wrote: I just got thru reading the whole section of this. Am I to understand that the house is trying to make it where railroads can not call train service back until 10 hours off. Dont most railroads now a days give you an off day at least once a week. I know some dont, but dont most Class 1's. Any Comments. Would like to hear from some others. I think it would be a good and bad thing at the same time. Good since they are correct, family problems do cause a big problem with trying to sleep during the day. Bad for the railroads at sometime. Having to make sure a train gets to a terminal before the 12 hours, or at least already taxied back to the terminal within there 12 hours.
Not all class 1 give you a day off, its not in the contract, and the 10 hr rest rule is not in stone yet, this is something the carrier gave us ( ns ) but its not a fra rule, the 12 hr rule is just that you can work 12 hrs, then your done you can be on duty 16 hrs you just cant preform any service, a cab ride is not service sitting on a train is not performing service, I myself have been on duty 18 hrs before just sitting around waiting, and as far as days off its a terminal by terminal thing for now but if we dont get something in place what ever the fra comes up with will be what you get and the goverment never comes up with anything good.
The biggest problem that we run into at our away terminal is that we have to wait for the PTI drivers to pick us up. I have waited up to 1 hour and 45 minutes after we tied up and closed out our trip ticket after completing 11:59 hours of road service. I am entitled to mandatory 10 hours of rest.
If I worked between 4:01 to 8 hours of service I can be called back with 8 hours of rest.
The clock starts ticking when I close out the hours of service statment screen. The time spent waiting for a "RIDE" does not count. By the time I get to the motel, get a bite to eat, shower and shave can add another 1 to 1.5 hours to that time.
The company that I work for has a new hire policy stating that you must live within 30 miles or 30 minutes from your home terminal. You can apply for a waiver "Which I did" and know that you have 2 hours to get to work upon the call from a crew caller "ROBOT".
I would like to see a plan that allows Road Service Employees to ask for 12 hours at their home terminal. In my opinion this would allow the individual the time to take care of family bussiness or personal bussiness.
My chief complaint about this whole thing is that you get a call at 01:00 arrive at your home terminal at 02:15 print out your orders, GB, SB, GN, SN's while you are waiting to leave. 03:00 is my departure time but I have to sit and wait for 1 to 2 hours for my train to arrive. It finally arrives, we load up, and move out of the yard onto the main line and get 2 miles out and sit for another 5 hours. Then we begin to move and get another 20 miles out and die because of hours of service. The mileage rate is 130, over time kicks in after 135 miles.........
You would think that with the advent of technology: GPS devices, crew managment software and other stuff would all be tied into "REAL TIME" for calling a crew to work so that this does not happen.
Truck drivers use the QUALCOM System to track their location. They can send and receive email updates from their dispatchers in real time. The Company and Drivers know when the drive will be out of tolerance for hours of service. You would think that the railroad would take this into consideration......
This job is demanding and can be a strain on a new hire and his family. I have 23 years of Army Service and have been lucky to still be married to the same woman.
MY FAMILY AND I DID UNDERSTAND WHAT WE MAY BE GETTING OURSELVES INTO. Just didn't believe it.....
jp2153 wrote: The biggest problem that we run into at our away terminal is that we have to wait for the PTI drivers to pick us up. I have waited up to 1 hour and 45 minutes after we tied up and closed out our trip ticket after completing 11:59 hours of road service. I am entitled to mandatory 10 hours of rest.If I worked between 4:01 to 8 hours of service I can be called back with 8 hours of rest.The clock starts ticking when I close out the hours of service statment screen. The time spent waiting for a "RIDE" does not count. By the time I get to the motel, get a bite to eat, shower and shave can add another 1 to 1.5 hours to that time.The company that I work for has a new hire policy stating that you must live within 30 miles or 30 minutes from your home terminal. You can apply for a waiver "Which I did" and know that you have 2 hours to get to work upon the call from a crew caller "ROBOT".I would like to see a plan that allows Road Service Employees to ask for 12 hours at their home terminal. In my opinion this would allow the individual the time to take care of family bussiness or personal bussiness.My chief complaint about this whole thing is that you get a call at 01:00 arrive at your home terminal at 02:15 print out your orders, GB, SB, GN, SN's while you are waiting to leave. 03:00 is my departure time but I have to sit and wait for 1 to 2 hours for my train to arrive. It finally arrives, we load up, and move out of the yard onto the main line and get 2 miles out and sit for another 5 hours. Then we begin to move and get another 20 miles out and die because of hours of service. The mileage rate is 130, over time kicks in after 135 miles.........You would think that with the advent of technology: GPS devices, crew managment software and other stuff would all be tied into "REAL TIME" for calling a crew to work so that this does not happen. Truck drivers use the QUALCOM System to track their location. They can send and receive email updates from their dispatchers in real time. The Company and Drivers know when the drive will be out of tolerance for hours of service. You would think that the railroad would take this into consideration......This job is demanding and can be a strain on a new hire and his family. I have 23 years of Army Service and have been lucky to still be married to the same woman. MY FAMILY AND I DID UNDERSTAND WHAT WE MAY BE GETTING OURSELVES INTO. Just didn't believe it.....
the best way to beat that is dont tie up til the ride shows up. you can relieve in 11:59 but do not go off duty until your ride shows up, then you get your 8 hrs rest a away from home terminal and all the pay you are due. real simple. your off duty time and relieved from service time do not need to match and when we do that a little box showes at bottom ask exsplaine the differance between relieved and off duty time. and the biggest reply is wait on taxi. always get paid
The problem is that crews have to endure long rides in crew vans or jitneys that are up to 4-6 hours long often without pay. To make matters worse the crew vans are driven by contractors making 6-8 bucks an hour.
Now I dont see why on a busy main line why cant crews on a 12 hour shift meet the train coming in the oppistite direction at the 5.5 hour mark and work there way back home.
wabash1 wrote: jp2153 wrote: the best way to beat that is dont tie up til the ride shows up. you can relieve in 11:59 but do not go off duty until your ride shows up, then you get your 8 hrs rest a away from home terminal and all the pay you are due. real simple. your off duty time and relieved from service time do not need to match and when we do that a little box showes at bottom ask exsplaine the differance between relieved and off duty time. and the biggest reply is wait on taxi. always get paid
jp2153 wrote:
I am still new to the process, but it was explained to me and shown on the wall of what the Terminal Supervisor will and will not pay. There was a long list of similar claims that was denied by the R/R and the union rep could not win back the claims for the individuals.
I will make sure that I have all of the facts straight and re-look the Hours of Service segment of my training manuals and talk to "KNOWELEDGEABLE FOLKS" on how to handle this situation if it should arise in the future.
Thank you for the advice.
railroadpostoffice wrote: The problem is that crews have to endure long rides in crew vans or jitneys that are up to 4-6 hours long often without pay. To make matters worse the crew vans are driven by contractors making 6-8 bucks an hour.Now I dont see why on a busy main line why cant crews on a 12 hour shift meet the train coming in the oppistite direction at the 5.5 hour mark and work there way back home.
Because, on a lot of crew districts, all the crews live in the same place. There are home terminals and away-from-home terminals and there are many places that aren't operated by interdivisional or double-ended pool crews. Therefore, somehow, the railroad would have to force or entice approximately half the employees to move.
jp2153,
If you are not getting paid after 11:59 on duty you need to check out the contract language again. Commonly that is when a crew in run thru service begins the overtime rate of pay. I have heard of some railroads trying to comingle the ride to the final terminal with the job assignment but I have not heard of a union contract which does not specify OT after 12 hrs.
Perhaps the last BNSF contracts which set pay rates based on the average earnings in previous might allow this loophole but I have not heard of it.
I've read a little bit about fatigue. Summary - we are least attentive between 2 and 6 in the morning, and there is another low point in the late afternoon (not as bad), which most people don't know about. This is true even when we are "rested." There's a lot of ongoing research.
On the basis of what I've read so far, I think we should consider not running trains between 2 and 6 in the morning. Such a radical change might pay for itself if it prevents just a few very expensive accidents.
I also looked up a few sites that talk about airline pilot scheduling. They have a similar problem, of course. There are several projects developing complex computer programs to match up crews to flights. All the ones I've read about so far, however, deal with scheduled airline flights. I suspect the problem is much more difficult if the flights aren't scheduled first.
I have always felt a RR would be much easier to run if it ran all trains on a schedule.
Anyway, it would make sense to me for the RRs and the airlines, as well as their unions, to work together on this common problem. It may be that the airlines have already developed a few answers that the RRs could use.
A worker will be on the job when they are supposed to at the appointed date and hour or they get replaced by another who can.
Real life has no consideration in Congress or off Company Hours.
In trucking the dispatcher will say "see you tomorrow morning." you may have 4 hours to go before you actually get back to your home to bed but dispatcher does not care about that. That is your problem.
I have had trucking jobs where I actually spend an hour or two or three driving TO the truck and then spending another hour or two getting READY to LEAVE to actually pick up a load somewhere. None of that matters in the log book. What matters is "Off duty" until your 15 minute pre-trip at the ternimal and your wheels need to be turning and leaving that ternimal at that specific time. If you are already tired from half a day spend getting TO actual work.. then that is currently YOUR problem and will become the company's problem easily solved by YOUR TERNIMATION and replacement with SOMEONE ELSE who will not be too tired to go to work when required.
You may have been awake for 20 hours all day waiting for a load to be ready before having to leave right now to be somewhere 500 miles away tomorrow morning... that is your problem not the Company's. Why? Because DOT does not make provision to account for "Awake-time" Until they do, the driver who cannot be somewhere the next morning will either die trying, kill someone else trying or be late and get fired.
Who knows? You might actually arrive at the customer next morning on time. Then your reward is to be allowed to sleep the day away and get ready for the next mission.
Driving tired is the same as driving drunk as far as Im concerned.
If you cannot endure the 4 hour lost time between work and sleep, it's time to re-assess what you are doing in life and find another line of work.
The Union Pacific Mainline thunders and roars between 10 PM and 3 in the morning. Constant trains 15 minutes apart in both directions.
Let's suppose for a moment that the Union Pacific has to run those same trains by day time between 8 am and 8 Pm. There is certainly the capacity on that same mainline that sits empty except for a few Z trains and a couple of fat slow Manifest Trains that are not required to be anywhere particularly right away.
While we are looking at it, let's close down the walmart store at 8 pm and send everyone home. It is not vital to the USA to have a customer go into one at 3 in the morning to get some smokes while the entire store staff of 14 from the Cart boy to the cashier all the way to the night manager struggles to stay awake.
I have read this thread a couple of times and am unclear on how this works. Can one of the trainmen ( or knowledgeable non trainmen) explain the rules and pay proceedures?
Here is what i do understand:
1. You are to be available to receive communication (on call).
2. You are given a window of time (1 or 2 hours) to report on duty, regardless of where you live and conditions. What about weather conditions or emergency situations such as a closing of a road...are you penalized for that?
3. The clock starts when you are to report on duty. Generally, are you expected to have all of your paperwork printed prior to going on duty? Or do you do that once the clock starts? Generally, are scheduled "on duty" times accurate to the operation of the train? Or do you often sit and wait? It seems as if that is the case.
4. After 12 hours the train must not be operated by the crew, unless there is an emergency. What constitutes "an emergency"? I assume the FRA then reviews said "emergencies". Are the carriers or train crews penalized for infringements? How often does a carrier ask crews to go beyond the 12 hours?
5. It appears there are different types of pay scales, some based on mileage, some on hours. Is that correct? Does each carrier negotiate with the the division's union? or systemwide? I believe CN has gone to an hourly rate...correct or not? When does OT typically kick in?
6. I assume that one is paid when the 12 hours are up, but you are still on the train. Correct me if i am incorrect. When does the payday end? When the cab picks up? Or when you get to the terminal? None of the above?
Finally, (for now), what is the biggest complaint you have about the system? What is the best thing about it? I have no intentions of hiring on...couldnt do it with my current family situation, but I certainly do respect the job and the men and women who do it.
ed
MP173 wrote: I have read this thread a couple of times and am unclear on how this works. Can one of the trainmen ( or knowledgeable non trainmen) explain the rules and pay proceedures?Here is what i do understand:1. You are to be available to receive communication (on call).2. You are given a window of time (1 or 2 hours) to report on duty, regardless of where you live and conditions. What about weather conditions or emergency situations such as a closing of a road...are you penalized for that? Yes, you are penalized, you are given a call time and you are expected to report for duty at that time. I will say that if there are extenuating circumstances, within reason, the local officers will allow variance, I've seen it for flat tires, roads closed due to storms, all sorts of other things, but if you take a call, you'd better show up or have good reason why you didn't.3. The clock starts when you are to report on duty. Generally, are you expected to have all of your paperwork printed prior to going on duty? Or do you do that once the clock starts? Generally, are scheduled "on duty" times accurate to the operation of the train? Or do you often sit and wait? It seems as if that is the case. Printing paperwork before going on duty would be a performance of duties. Sometimes you wait, sometimes you go, its never the same.4. After 12 hours the train must not be operated by the crew, unless there is an emergency. What constitutes "an emergency"? I assume the FRA then reviews said "emergencies". Are the carriers or train crews penalized for infringements? How often does a carrier ask crews to go beyond the 12 hours? Hardly ever, sometimes there are weather conditions or derailments but it is a unusual occurrence, in my experience, anyway. Instructions to violate Hours of Service have to be issued by the superintendent of a division and crews are not penalized for following instructions.5. It appears there are different types of pay scales, some based on mileage, some on hours. Is that correct? Does each carrier negotiate with the the division's union? or systemwide? I believe CN has gone to an hourly rate...correct or not? When does OT typically kick in? CN has gone to an hourly rate but the other Class I's have not done that for through freight employees. Overtime is based on the mileage paid in the freight pool with 130 miles being the basic day, where overtime starts after eight hours.6. I assume that one is paid when the 12 hours are up, but you are still on the train. Correct me if i am incorrect. When does the payday end? When the cab picks up? Or when you get to the terminal? None of the above? When you get to the terminal and put off duty.Finally, (for now), what is the biggest complaint you have about the system? What is the best thing about it? I have no intentions of hiring on...couldnt do it with my current family situation, but I certainly do respect the job and the men and women who do it. I really can't get into that, too many personal thoughts and things I would probably rather not say. Leave it sufficient to say that I've put up with being a railroader for a long time, both good and bad, and don't regret it. I've only thought things have fallen apart in recent years and attribute some of it to people running it who haven't really experienced it first.ed
Yes, you are penalized, you are given a call time and you are expected to report for duty at that time. I will say that if there are extenuating circumstances, within reason, the local officers will allow variance, I've seen it for flat tires, roads closed due to storms, all sorts of other things, but if you take a call, you'd better show up or have good reason why you didn't.
Printing paperwork before going on duty would be a performance of duties.
Sometimes you wait, sometimes you go, its never the same.
Hardly ever, sometimes there are weather conditions or derailments but it is a unusual occurrence, in my experience, anyway. Instructions to violate Hours of Service have to be issued by the superintendent of a division and crews are not penalized for following instructions.
CN has gone to an hourly rate but the other Class I's have not done that for through freight employees. Overtime is based on the mileage paid in the freight pool with 130 miles being the basic day, where overtime starts after eight hours.
When you get to the terminal and put off duty.
I really can't get into that, too many personal thoughts and things I would probably rather not say. Leave it sufficient to say that I've put up with being a railroader for a long time, both good and bad, and don't regret it. I've only thought things have fallen apart in recent years and attribute some of it to people running it who haven't really experienced it first.
Valley:Thanks for the response. Do you think things are more strained now because of the increases in trains with the same capacity, or other things?
I live outside Chicago (NW Indiana) and getting thru Chicago seems to be a major issue for the railroads. I listen on the scanner and it does seem there is a certain level of frustration based on the congestion issues. It has to be frustrating to get somewhere and just sit for hours waiting for a place to go or a crew.
MP173 wrote: Valley:Thanks for the response. Do you think things are more strained now because of the increases in trains with the same capacity, or other things?I live outside Chicago (NW Indiana) and getting thru Chicago seems to be a major issue for the railroads. I listen on the scanner and it does seem there is a certain level of frustration based on the congestion issues. It has to be frustrating to get somewhere and just sit for hours waiting for a place to go or a crew.ed
If it is that bad, the Railroads are going to have to get out of the past, declare Chicago obselete and build new pathways across the Nation bypassing the Chicago area.
How it works for us is we show up at our assigned time either assigned job or extra board call, show up, when the time for you to start your tour of duty arrives you can start your printing your paperwork as the computer won't allow you to do anything until your on duty then get your train and go when you either die or get to your assigned destination you call a cab and wait then once you get to the yard where we tie up at call the hotel to see if they have any rooms if not then wait there until they do then once your cab arrives and you have a room then you tie up whic sometimes makes for a long day for example saturday we arrived at the BRC at 5:45 and called our can it didn't show up until 9:00 and by the time we arrived at landers yard where we tie up it was after 10:00
as far as the congestion in chicago it varies depending on the dispatcher and where your going as some yards won't take you after certain times I know the other day there was a 1ft section of the mainline missing shutting down the main line for several hours while MW fixed it backing things up for quite a while
MP173 wrote: I have read this thread a couple of times and am unclear on how this works. Can one of the trainmen ( or knowledgeable non trainmen) explain the rules and pay proceedures?Here is what i do understand:1. You are to be available to receive communication (on call).2. You are given a window of time (1 or 2 hours) to report on duty, regardless of where you live and conditions. What about weather conditions or emergency situations such as a closing of a road...are you penalized for that?3. The clock starts when you are to report on duty. Generally, are you expected to have all of your paperwork printed prior to going on duty? Or do you do that once the clock starts? Generally, are scheduled "on duty" times accurate to the operation of the train? Or do you often sit and wait? It seems as if that is the case.4. After 12 hours the train must not be operated by the crew, unless there is an emergency. What constitutes "an emergency"? I assume the FRA then reviews said "emergencies". Are the carriers or train crews penalized for infringements? How often does a carrier ask crews to go beyond the 12 hours? 5. It appears there are different types of pay scales, some based on mileage, some on hours. Is that correct? Does each carrier negotiate with the the division's union? or systemwide? I believe CN has gone to an hourly rate...correct or not? When does OT typically kick in? 6. I assume that one is paid when the 12 hours are up, but you are still on the train. Correct me if i am incorrect. When does the payday end? When the cab picks up? Or when you get to the terminal? None of the above? Finally, (for now), what is the biggest complaint you have about the system? What is the best thing about it? I have no intentions of hiring on...couldnt do it with my current family situation, but I certainly do respect the job and the men and women who do it.ed
I work out of Galesburg, IL as an engineer. Here's my answers to your questions(as best as I can)
1. Yes, you MUST have a way for them to contact you.
2.We get a 1 1/2 hour call(former BN engineers). Former Santa Fe and some conductors get 2hour calls (Local Agreements dictate this)
3.You get paperwork together after your on duty time. Usually you are given 20 mins or so before they start looking for you. That's if your train is there. I've sat for 6 hours before waiting at the terminal to get on a train. If you depart within an hour of your duty time, you are starting out good.
4.At 12 hours you are DONE. Railroads(at least ones I've dealt with) will take this time quite seriously. Emergency situations would have to be quite dire for them to use a DOL crew. I've yet to see it.
5.Out of Galesburg terminal everything is trip-rates now. One set rate dpending on direction and destination. For example: I normally work Galesburg-Chicago. There are 3 trip rates. One is based on 170 miles, one is 216 miles, and one is 245 miles, all based on your crew route(basically which foreign yard you have to go to). Now obviously 245 mile trip rates pay MUCH more than 170 mile. The flipside to that is you have to run off your miles to start overtime. 170 miles is around 10 hours and 15mins, 216 miles and 245 miles are over and WELL over 12 hours respectively.
6.You are ON duty until you tie-up, which for us is when we arrive at our Away from home terminal hotel. We have tie-up computers in a room at our hotel which we use. Now, this is where the "limbo" time comes in. The moment you step off your train and into a van, you are still on duty but the railroad considers you relieved. So if you step off at 11:59 you will only get 8 hours rest time even if it took 2 hours+ getting to your hotel. Your rest time still starts when you tieup at the hotel, but you could be on duty 19 hours(which I have been before) and if you were relieved before 12 it's 8 hours with the possibility of getting called at 6 1/2 to go back on duty. This would be one of my complaints.
the only other thing I would "complain" about is the overtime miles runoff. I think in this day and age 8 hours is 8 hours. This whole mileage runoff I think is rediculous. With this there is NOmotivation to get the crews to their destination and off their train. The WORST thing a crew wants to here is a dispatcher or yardmaster come on the radio and ask "How much time you guys have left?" That's a big flashing red light telling you they are going to sit you there until the LAST possible minute, then it's rush, rush, rush. This has happened to me many, many times.
What is the good part? The job does pay well. If you control the job and don't let the job control you(In that I mean the railroad) then you can get days off when you want, even on extra boards, to an extent(I'm talking road service here). It's not a physically demanding job, more of a mentally demanding job(fatigue would be included here). Conquer that part and you'll come to terms with the job itself.
Hope that clarifies some stuff.
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