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[quote user="greyhounds"][quote user="futuremodal"] I did not say the refinery won't ship some product by truck, or pipeline, or barge.  [/quote] Yes you did.  Here's exactly what you said: [quote user="futuremodal"] Barges are limited to waterways, so anything bound for non-waterway locales must go by rail or pipeline.    [/quote] To you it's barge, pipe or rail.  You totally left out trucks [/quote] Well la de da.  For what it's worth, trucks were infered, if not actually mentioned that one time.  I guess from now on we have to type all available modes, or someone has an out of context hissy fit. [quote] [quote user="futuremodal"] Why do transportation economists refer to railroads as "natural monopolies" if indeed any available mode should be counted as *competition*?  If, as you both contend, trucks are competition for railroads (and since trucks are everywhere), why do these economists seemingly ignore the nationwide saturation of trucks in defining railroads as monopolies? [/quote] You really don't understand that trucking companies and railroads compete for freight?  [/quote] You really don't understand product differentiation, do you?  To you it's all homogenous, and therein lies the error of your ways. [quote] Try to understand the definition of "Natural Monopoly" that Jay posted.  It's got nothing to do with your concept of what a monopoly is.  It doesn't mean that the customer has only the one transportation producing firm to buy from, or that he can't shift freight between modes.  [/quote] It means what it says, that a railroad is a monopoly for what it hauls best, e.g. that "efficiency" reference.  Again, product differentiation, Ken. [quote]  It means that the low cost method of handling railcar freight to and from facilities such as the ExxonMobile refinery generally involves only one rail firm.  Introducing a second rail carrier into the situation would increase the cost of rail service to the plant.  This cost increase would shift freight from rail to other modes, such as trucks.  Bad idea Dave. [/quote] Bad conclusion, Ken.  There is nothing implicit about a second rail carrier "increasing costs" to serve the plant.  There would be a shift of revenues from the one rail carrier to the new rail carrier, assuming they both use the same trackage.  Loss of revenue does not equate to increasing costs. What might happen with rail on rail competition is a shift in the plant's production to products more prone to rail carriage if they are now afforded more reasonable rates and rail service offerings. [quote] On the simplest of levels, instead of sending in one crew to switch out the plant, you'd now have two crews.  (who would probably get in each other's way and P/O each other even if they didn't by the way each left things for the other.) So unless the volume doubled, which it couldn't do unless there was a modal shift (and you falsely maintain there is no modal competition), each crew switching the plant would handle fewer cars (maybe by as much as half) than the one crew would.  [/quote] Another faulty premise.  Who says the plant or a 3rd party contractor can't handle the switching for both carriers?  All the Class I's have to do is leave the inbounds and take out the outbounds.  You know, like Ed's railroad. [quote] This will increase the per unit and overall rail cost of switching the facility.  Increasing the rail cost and diverting freight to truck movement is no way to go through life Dave. (Other rail cost will also go up with the introduction of a second serving railroad.) [/quote] See above.... [quote] The low cost method of providing railcar service to the facility is through one single railroad firm.  That's what they mean by "Natural Monopoly".  [/quote] That definition assumes no multiple track users.  Another faulty assumption by monopoly apologists.
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