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[quote user="greyhounds"][quote user="futuremodal"] Anyone with more than a double digit IQ could see that those different modes ship different products from that refinery for the most part, and those products are all bound for different places.  Barges are limited to waterways, so anything bound for non-waterway locales must go by rail or pipeline.  Pipelines can only carry certain bulk items, not the speciality items.  Thus for specific products, the refinery near Joliet is a captive situation if it only has one Class I rail connection. Gee, we went over this a while back, when the double digit crowd erroneously claimed that pipelines and railroads carry the same things to the same places.  Either Ken forgot, or he just couldn't grasp it. So yes, Ken, you are what you typed.[D)] [/quote] Does anyone have a clue as to why FM is of the absolute certainty that the refinery can not ship and receive by truck? Does anyone have a clue as to why he is of the equal certainty that the refinery would be captive if it was served by the EJ&E and a Class 1 railroad.? Anticipating his response - they can receive the crude oil by pipeline and barge.  They can distribute the refined product to the nearby Chicago area by truck (or pipe to distirbution terminals).  They've got a lot of options.  They are in no way "captive" to any rail service. [/quote] I did not say the refinery won't ship some product by truck, or pipeline, or barge.  But there will be certain products bound for certain areas that are: 1.  Not on a waterway 2.  Not near a pipeline 3.  A long haul distance away 4.  Too volumous for truck You seem to think that the inputs and outputs of refineries are in a homogenous market.  You forget both product specificity and the available transportation options of certain destinations. We went over this in the coal mine/power plant examples a while back.  We have two Class I' out of the PRB, yet most power plants that use PRB coal have only one physical connection to a Class I, thus they can only receive the needed quantities of coal from that one Class I connection, even if there is a second Class I a few miles away..  Clearly, the coal deliveries are captive, even though the GAO counts PRB coal transportation as not captive "since both UP and BNSF serve the PRB". You and Jay should get together and contrive a response to this little factiod:  Why do transportation economists refer to railroads as "natural monopolies" if indeed any available mode should be counted as *competition*?  If, as you both contend, trucks are competition for railroads (and since trucks are everywhere), why do these economists seemingly ignore the nationwide saturation of trucks in defining railroads as monopolies?
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