Are British Commuter Trains Really This Bad?

[eastside]

It looks about as crowded as a NY subway at rush-hour except New Yorkers rarely get the added travails and breakdowns as described in the article.  Also American subway cars aren't nearly as cramped.

Article in the NY Times.
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[Datafever]

What a mess!  I remember reading a story several years ago about the problems with overcrowding on British trains.

Standing is common on trains here in San Jose, but seldom is the train "crowded".  I've been on some buses that were extremely crowded though - to the point that the driver refused to allow additional passengers to board. 

[Simon Reed]

Sadly this is'nt a rare phenomenon.

Keynsham - the area primarily referred to in the article - is a commuter suburb outside the city of Bristol, so at rush-hour times such overcrowding is common.

Unlike most US commuter rail operations UK suburban rail provides a service at what US travellers would consider to be an intensive frequency throughout the day. The privatisation of British Rail brought about a situation whereby ownership of rolling stock passed to leasing companies who then lease the stock back to the train operating companies.

It is not, therefore, financially viable for a train operator to keep stock unused during the main period of the day simply to augment rush-hour services as they would be charged for it's (non) use.

Suitable rolling stock is also at a premium here due to the franchising processes. A train operating company (TOC) is not granted an indefinate period of operating time. The TOC bids for the right to operate a franchise which might, for example, last for seven years which is a disincentive to invest in new equipment.

Hopefully this overview is of use.       

[Redwards]

I lived and worked in Croydon, South London a few years ago and I can confirm that the commuter trains into and out of London could at times be as crowded as the train in the NYT photograph.  I was fascinated by the now retired slam-door trains that had a passenger controlled door between each row of seats.  The doors could be opened or closed by passengers regardless of whether the train was moving or stationary.  I was always concerned that somebody was going to open one at speed and throw something or someone out but never saw it happen.

--Reed

[anb740]

That looks like some of the subways in/around Washington D.C. during rush hour.  Barely enough room to breathe, much less move around.

[Murphy Siding]

     I remember seeing TV footage of over-stuffed Japanese commuter trains that had a conductor type person stationed at each door.  His job was to push the last person in really tight, so the doors would shut.

[martin.knoepfel]

British Railways have smaller clearances than continental European ones. So you don't find real bilevel passenger-coaches in commuter or long-distance trains. Ergo, you need to have more standees. Unless you are willing to expand railway capacity, add more tracks, buy more rolling-stock, to satisfy demand even during peak-hours. But this would be horribly expensive. Not to talk of the problems of adding tracks to existing ROWs in cities, where buildings are close to the rails. Finally, it is a trade-off. Are passengers or taxpayers willing to pay a lot more for a guarenteed seat? BTW, the problem exists not only in Britain but in all big European cities, even in Paris, wehre bilevel commuter-coaches are numerous.

[Tulyar15]

Mind you, on the one occassion I had to cross Paris by Metro (from Gare du Nord to Gare Monparnasse). Furthermore this was on a Saturday (admittedly there was a friendly soccer match on between France and the Irish Republic - hence the presence of a lot of Irish people on the Eurostar I'd taken to Gard du Nord - we wished them well but I think the result was a no score draw) so I dread to think what a week day would be like. Since that day I've not had any time for anyone who goes on about how wonderful French railways are!

Getting back on topic, living as I do in the Bristol area, the problems seem to have got worse when the new timetable came in to force on December 12th last. With the start of the new timetable Worst Great Western tried to manage with less rolling stock and they've had their fingers badly burned. A week or so ago there was a mass protest where commuters refused to pay fares and staff ended up having to let them travel free!

[Old Foreigner]

A British friend of mine some years ago told me how fascinating it was to see hundreds of hands reaching out of those slam-door carriages in order to open the doors as these - in contrast to Continental European practice - could be opened only from the outside. You had to lower the window first and then grab the handle.

  

[Tulyar15]

Those trains have now been consigned to history (apart from a couple on a branch line in Hampshire where SW Trains have got permission from the Health & Safety *** to carry on using them on this one line). On the whole I think this is for the better. There were times when, particularly on the Southern Region where a lot of these trains remained in use up till 2005, impatient commuters would get out and start walking. The trouble was compounded by the fact that the management on such occassions would turn the 3rd rail power off, imobilising more trains and making the situation worse. But even this would not completely remove the danger of wandering commuters getting run over as there are a small number of diesel trains running on the Southern (including freight trains!).

[Anonymous]

I recall a DC 4th of July where hundreds of thousands had used the subways surrounding the central Mall area to get out of the city. Seeing 15 Metro cars fill in 3 heartbeats to max volume and watching them pull out of Metro Centre at what probably is the great test of thier motors... whew. Little bit dangerous to have that many people to the point of having just enough room to breathe.

Londons Underground can get quite full at times and thier Tube trains are not that big.

We commuted out of Suffolk into London's Liverpool and did not have too much trouble back in the old Intercity days. I would imagine that conditions are different over there today.

[ndbprr]

Every commuter train I ever rode (Philadelphia, New York, Chicago) was a cattle car experience.  Basically it is like riding the subway above ground.  Move the maximum number of people with the least amount of equipment and usually filthy.

[Anonymous]

Every commuter train I ever rode (Philadelphia, New York, Chicago) was a cattle car experience.  Basically it is like riding the subway above ground.  Move the maximum number of people with the least amount of equipment and usually filthy.

No worse than some of the Greyhound Buses on certian routes.. like DC to NYC. Those buses are always a tad overcrowded. I know that I will never use Greyhound again, I'll drive myself or fly.

[Tulyar15]

We commuted out of Suffolk into London's Liverpool and did not have too much trouble back in the old Intercity days. I would imagine that conditions are different over there today.

The Great Eastern main line to Norwich is one of the few lines in Britain where loco hauled passenger trains are still the norm. I dont often travel that line myself but from what I can gather it's not too bad - they keep a few extra sets of passenger cars in reserve. On summer Saturdays they run them thru to Gt. Yarmouth, even dragging the electric loco (which is semi permanent coupled to the passenger cars - they operate in push pull mode with the loco usually at the Norwich end of the train).

[sgtbean1]

I've heard this before. So that didn't supprise me. But the price of the tickets did! My god! They charge you a limb for a round trip. The longest distance I can travel inside our borders costs about 40 euros round trip. I thought I was gonna pass out at the price level in Britain.....

[MStLfan]

It looks about as crowded as a NY subway at rush-hour except New Yorkers rarely get the added travails and breakdowns as described in the article.  Also American subway cars aren't nearly as cramped.

Article in the NY Times.
(Registration is free.)

Looks exactly like an ordinary busy day in the Netherlands. In fact, this morning I took the underground in Rotterdam at 6.45 AM and it was already that full. Trains these days are a bit better because there is continous investment in new doubledeck intercity and suburban trains. I forgot how many seats were added the last years but it ran in the thousands and have helped to make the situation better. In fact, recently a new batch of double and single deck emu's have once again been ordered to cope with ever increasing numbers (more than a million passengers a day on just NS and there are other companies offering services).

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[MStLfan]

As for the rest of the horror story, you have to remember that our timetables are very complex with trains running on 3 to 5 minutes headway during rushhour if not most of the day. When the new pan-european safetysystem finally works and has been implemented everywhere (will take decades I guess) then there could be more room for additional trains.

Also, most trains run under catenary. Here in the Netherlands speeds are reduced if windspeeds reach a certain strength. This is a safety measure as the catenary may make violent swings and the pantographs can than get tangled in it and the whole affair comes down. Modern trains do not seem to like snow and the electrical systems are more prone to shorts than before, or so it seems to me. NS is more likely to shut down the complete system these days rather than wait till somthing goes wrong and everything in the whole country comes to a stop.

I have not heard that a crew here in the Netherlands would "abandon" their train and take a taxi to reach the next station to continue their shift. Usually they stay with the train untill alternative transport has been arranged and their train has been taken away if it has broken down. NS have a good system if things break down (for every kilometer of railway they know which bus company to call to hire replacement buses) but usually this works best if it happens outside rushhours as normally all buses run during rushhour.

Nevertheless, we often grumble and complain. Every now and then we reach situations as described in the article. Currently, the situation around Zoetermeer (a major suburb of The Hague) is very bad because Randstadrail still is not running in that area (briefly, Randstadrail is a cooperation between the local transit operators of Rotterdam (RET) and The Hague (HTM), they took over 2 heavy rail lines and converted them to light rail but they encountered so many problems that they are more then half a year behind schedule).

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[Tulyar15]

I've heard this before. So that didn't supprise me. But the price of the tickets did! My god! They charge you a limb for a round trip. The longest distance I can travel inside our borders costs about 40 euros round trip. I thought I was gonna pass out at the price level in Britain.....

The government current plan to deal with over crowding is to tell the Train Operators to put their fares up by double the rate of inflation, forcing more people on to our over crowded roads. Oh for a sensible government with a joined up transport policy!

[Datafever]

The government current plan to deal with over crowding is to tell the Train Operators to put their fares up by double the rate of inflation, forcing more people on to our over crowded roads. Oh for a sensible government with a joined up transport policy!

But wouldn't the increase in fares allow for capital expenditures that could increase system capacity?  I suspect that fares could increase to some extent while still maintaining trains at "overflow" capacity.  Yes?  No? 

[Simon Reed]

Datafever. No - or rather not really - for the reasons outlined above.

There is no particular incentive to capital investment in rolling stock above and beyond replacement of life expired equipment.

There are mechanisms whereby local and regional government can dictate the nature and extent of service provision but these powers are used with variable effect and enthusiasm.

Perhaps the heading of this topic is slightly amiss. Scottish commuter trains probably are'nt this bad but English commuter trains might be. The devolved Scottish government is quite happy to contribute towards, and promote schemes to enhance the public transport infrastructure North of the border.     

[Tulyar15]

The government current plan to deal with over crowding is to tell the Train Operators to put their fares up by double the rate of inflation, forcing more people on to our over crowded roads. Oh for a sensible government with a joined up transport policy!

But wouldn't the increase in fares allow for capital expenditures that could increase system capacity?  I suspect that fares could increase to some extent while still maintaining trains at "overflow" capacity.  Yes?  No? 

Capital expenditure is funded by Network Rail, the infrastructrure owner. To be fair, under Chief Executive John Armitt, who took the helm at NR when it was created out of the ashes of Railtrack, he's managed to put is house in order and is funding more infrastructure improvements - mainly small quick win projects such as re-doubling a stretch of line in Cornwall which was short sightedly singled in the 1980s.

But rolling stock is owned by the Rolling Stock Companies who have an effective monopoly between them; they just jack up their hire fees and this gives the train operators a disincetive to hire extra stock. In the example of the Bristol area suburban services quoted above, First Gt. Western who took over these services in 2006, tried to run them with less rolling stock and they've got their fingders burned. The short franchises tend to deter investment. The TOC's have often said longer franchises (15 years or more) would encourage investment. It is significant that one of the few TOC's which has invested in extra rolling stock is Chiltern, who operate out of London Marylebone and have a 20 year franchise. They've also jointly funded infrastructure improvements with Network Railwork.

[snagletooth]

  I,ve been reading this thread for a while and like to throw in a comment. My take on it seems to be the real underlying problem is UK is past the breaking point in capacity where it needs it most with no room for expansion, being an island. This includes highway and airline, ect. This being further hardened by a system that doesnt promote innovation, just squeezing profit out an existing infrasture. If all forms of transportion are beyond capacity, and no room for expansion, then reform is just a hot potato, the meat is in the fact you can't put 8 lanes of highway in when 6 lanes are touching buildings on both sides, the same with the track. No amount of money can fix that, goverment or private. I pose this as a question. It just seems to me the human race as a whole gotten down to wasting time covering sypmtoms, not fixing the cause. I see it here all the time. we blow are noses and  think were good, when we need to wrap ourselves in a blanket and sweat the germs out.

 Soory about the soapbox
 

[Anonymous]

The government current plan to deal with over crowding is to tell the Train Operators to put their fares up by double the rate of inflation, forcing more people on to our over crowded roads. Oh for a sensible government with a joined up transport policy!

But wouldn't the increase in fares allow for capital expenditures that could increase system capacity?  I suspect that fares could increase to some extent while still maintaining trains at "overflow" capacity.  Yes?  No? 

Virgin trains are looking to extend their 53 9 car Pendolino train's to 11 car's That;s 106 extra car's in total

[Tulyar15]

Yes, but as reported in the latest issue of 'Modern Railways' this attempt has stalled because the Dept. of Transport wont give the necessary gauarantees to the Rolling Stock Co (ROSCO), to enable it to go ahead and fund the extra carriages. As a result, a useful window to add the extra cars to the Pendolinos provided by their first overhauls will be missed, and thus the cost of the exercise, if it goes ahead at all, will be much increased.

Alas the above sorry saga is all too typical of our fragmented rail network in Britain.