I would like to hear from someone knowledgable about the basic technology used on the LA Light Rail and subway systems. I have heard that each branch of the system uses mutually incompatible technologies, so that the cars from one line cannot be used on the others.
Is this true? If it is not, what is the real situation regarding cross-utilization of cars?
Jack
Jack_S wrote: I would like to hear from someone knowledgable about the basic technology used on the LA Light Rail and subway systems. I have heard that each branch of the system uses mutually incompatible technologies, so that the cars from one line cannot be used on the others.Is this true? If it is not, what is the real situation regarding cross-utilization of cars?Jack
It is ten years since I've been to LA but there were two different types of operation there then. The Blue line to San Pedro was a standard light rail operation mostly on the surface but partly elevated with German style articulated cars running from overhead trolley wire (using pantographs). The Red line was a standard subway line, mostly underground with third rail power. There was a third line that connected the Blue line to the Airport at LAX which used the same cars as the blue line. I think that was the Green line!
There might be other lines now, I haven't been there to check!
M636C
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May I correct an error? The Red Line is not light rail. It is heavy rail. High Platforms and third rail and cars with train doors allowing crew members to walk between cars when the train is in motion. This is typical heavy rail, rapid transit. The reason it is adopted instead of the light rail of the Blue, Green, and Gold lines is that heavy rail has about double the capacity of light rail, up to 100,000 people past a given point on a single track in one hour. No other form of transportation can beat that. And this figure is met easily at various points on the New York subway system. Not that LA needs that capacity right now, but they planned for the future.
The other lines are light rail and are compatible. All lines in LA are at 750 volts DC, and some compatibility probably exists between light and heavy rail substation equipment, air conditioning equipment perhaps, possibly some other electrical and mechanical parts on the cars.
Light rail is less expensive to construct than heavy rail, is more adaptable to surface alignments and grade crossings, and can share street space with automotive vehicles if necessary, which heavy rail cannot.
All LA lines are standard gauge, and possibly they may have some work equipment that can be used on both systems. Half a century ago, the BMT Division of the NYCTA had lots of such equipment, and the subsidiary South Brooklyn Railway's freight service used the tracks of both heavy rail (subways and elevateds) and light rail (streetcar).
daveklepper wrote: May I correct an error? The Red Line is not light rail. It is heavy rail. High Platforms and third rail and cars with train doors allowing crew members to walk between cars when the train is in motion. This is typical heavy rail, rapid transit. The reason it is adopted instead of the light rail of the Blue, Green, and Gold lines is that heavy rail has about double the capacity of light rail, up to 100,000 people past a given point on a single track in one hour. No other form of transportation can beat that. And this figure is met easily at various points on the New York subway system. Not that LA needs that capacity right now, but they planned for the future.The other lines are light rail and are compatible. All lines in LA are at 750 volts DC, and some compatibility probably exists between light and heavy rail substation equipment, air conditioning equipment perhaps, possibly some other electrical and mechanical parts on the cars. Light rail is less expensive to construct than heavy rail, is more adaptable to surface alignments and grade crossings, and can share street space with automotive vehicles if necessary, which heavy rail cannot.All LA lines are standard gauge, and possibly they may have some work equipment that can be used on both systems. Half a century ago, the BMT Division of the NYCTA had lots of such equipment, and the subsidiary South Brooklyn Railway's freight service used the tracks of both heavy rail (subways and elevateds) and light rail (streetcar).
Hi - Responding to the comment about CTA and Skokie Line catenary - yes, it's true it was the only line in the system still using overhead wire for power distribution and only for part of the line. Just as in CNS&M days, the line used third rail power distribution from East Prairie Road on in to Howard Street, Chicago. Converting the Skokie to 100% third rail allowed CTA to have a 100% compatible fleet of cars. It also recognized the basic fact that the catenary was in pretty rough shape and either needed to be replaced with new catenary or go the third rail route. It was a testament to the line department crews that they were able to keep the catenary operation going as long as they did!
Hope this helps!
Art
RE - how interurbans or other lines would be classified in today's world, CTA has many aspects that make it light rail-like - the grade crossings on the Blue, Brown, Yellow and Puprle Lines, single-car trains on the Yellow (and Purple) in days past, etc.
Going back closer to the original thread topic, MBTA is another system where there's no interchangeability between cars of the Blue, Green or Red Lines, for example. That's gotta make it tough on the transportation/maintenance departments, as one line can't lend another cars, stocking of parts, etc.
Clarification, that is 50,000 per direction.
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I don't have a leg to stand on.
Some minor additions to what's been mentioned so far.
The Blue Line trains in Los Angeles are not German. They are Japanese. The same consurtium that built some MARC cars built them. There are two models, the P865 and P2020, which can only be distinguished by the road number.
While the Blue Line cars were originally used to open the Green Line, they now only work the Blue Line. The Green Line and Gold Line use a more updated light rail vehicle, which is German, the P2000.
Metro has recently renamed the Wilshire Blvd stub on the Red Line the Purple Line (so without any new construction, LA now has two subway lines - neat trick). The Red Line and Purple Line trains are Italian, model A650.
There has been talk in the past of adding the El Monte Busway and the Harbor Freeway Busway to the same hybrid world that the Orange Line Busway falls into (making it seem like it's another line on Metro Rail). Nothing has come of this to date. The Orange Line busses are all painted silver to show that they are a "part" of Metro Rail. Some of the Blue Line cars have been painted in a matching silver. I have not seen any of the Green/Gold cars in this scheme yet, and I don't think it would work on the Red Line trains, which are fluted.
Angel's Flight funicular (the world's shortest railroad) is reopening this summer, now as a part of Metro Rail (it uses the original cable cars from the previous turn of the century). They are being painted Orange.
getting back to the beginning of the post, where you thought there were 3 incompatible technologies, I believe that the Green Line as proposed would use some sort of rail mode that would indeed have been incompatible with what was used on the Blue and Red lines, but they changed their minds and settled for equipment compatible with the Blue Line.
Also, I think the Green line is completely grade separated. I'll stand corrected if someone who knows better chimes in.
Patrick Boylan
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The original plan for the Metro Green line was to have unmanned trains, computer controlled and monitored from a central control point. This plan was abondoned because of technical difficulties technical difficulties and cost considerations. The Green line runs in the median of the 105 freeway and is completely grade seperated.
As an aside, the original plan was to serve the LAX airport. There were enough objections to this routing, so the line was turned south just before the airport to serve the then large aerospace employers in El Segundo, Redondo Beach, etc. We all know what happened to the aerospace industry and the employees therein. Now, to get from the Green line to the airport, one must board a shuttle bus (free) to complete the trip. Not many people do that, hauling luggage with them.
Your corrections to my corrections happen to be errors. The definition of heavy rail is not dependent on the weight of the cars. Lots of articulated three truck and four truck light rail cars weigh far more than any CTA rapid transit car. But CTA, by APTA and many other professional organizations, is defined as heavy rail because it is third-rail operated, completely grade-seperated (grade crossings permitted, were two on the NY Subways), usually has trains rather than single cars (single cars very rare, Skokie Swift being the only line at the present time), and has high platforms, altogether incompatiable with ON-STREET operation. A light rail line uses overhead wire, can load from the sidewalk, may run in trains but has frequent single-car operation and in any case usually lacks train doors for in motion movement between cars. And even if completely grade seperated, like Boston's Riverside "D" Green Line and Ashmont Mattapan PCC operation, the technology ALLOWS on-street operation if some extension were to require it.
And yes there are points on the New York City subway system where 100,000 people pass by on a single track during an hour. Possibly the best example is the express track in the direction of the rush hour just west of the Queens Plaza station on the Queens Boulevard Line from Jamaica. Possibly light rail could be pushed to 50,000 if completely grade seperated.
In comparing the LA red line cars with the light rail cars, one must remember that the light rail cars are really one-and-two-thirds a car, because they have three trucks, can bend in the middle, while the red line cars are two trucks and conventional design. So on a weight per length of car basis, I would suspect the Red Line cars are actually heavier. Or on an axle-loading basis.
daveklepper wrote: Your corrections to my corrections happen to be errors. The definition of heavy rail is not dependent on the weight of the cars. Lots of articulated three truck and four truck light rail cars weigh far more than any CTA rapid transit car. But CTA, by APTA and many other professional organizations, is defined as heavy rail because it is third-rail operated, completely grade-seperated (grade crossings permitted, were two on the NY Subways), usually has trains rather than single cars (single cars very rare, Skokie Swift being the only line at the present time), and has high platforms, altogether incompatiable with ON-STREET operation. A light rail line uses overhead wire, can load from the sidewalk, may run in trains but has frequent single-car operation and in any case usually lacks train doors for in motion movement between cars. And even if completely grade seperated, like Boston's Riverside "D" Green Line and Ashmont Mattapan PCC operation, the technology ALLOWS on-street operation if some extension were to require it.And yes there are points on the New York City subway system where 100,000 people pass by on a single track during an hour. Possibly the best example is the express track in the direction of the rush hour just west of the Queens Plaza station on the Queens Boulevard Line from Jamaica. Possibly light rail could be pushed to 50,000 if completely grade seperated.In comparing the LA red line cars with the light rail cars, one must remember that the light rail cars are really one-and-two-thirds a car, because they have three trucks, can bend in the middle, while the red line cars are two trucks and conventional design. So on a weight per length of car basis, I would suspect the Red Line cars are actually heavier. Or on an axle-loading basis.
daveklepper wrote: And yes there are points on the New York City subway system where 100,000 people pass by on a single track during an hour. Possibly the best example is the express track in the direction of the rush hour just west of the Queens Plaza station on the Queens Boulevard Line from Jamaica. Possibly light rail could be pushed to 50,000 if completely grade seperated.I
I
Must be very special circumstances to achiewce that number.
I respect your knowledge, of rail passenger transportation.
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