The article on Burkhardt's Polish rail service provider was quite interesting, not only in that they are competing with roughly 20 other rail service providers over the state run infrastructure....
......but also in that the author never once used the term "open access" in describing the Polish railway situation, even though it is a classic example of an open access system.
Hmmmmm, has TRAINS staff banned the use of the phrase "open access" to satisfy the baseline constituency?
It appears that FM has become such a cheerleader for "open access" that he sees a vast conspiracy against it every time he believes that the term should be mentioned but isn't.
I'm willing to believe that FM is getting bored with his train-watching (not much beyond BNSF and UP in his neck of the woods) and has blindly subscribed to his pet theory to get a little more variety in his life.
I heard Mr. Burkhardt speak regarding open access at Northwestern. He has extensive experience with the concept based on his European operations.
He did not express a favorable view of open access.
CSSHEGEWISCH wrote: It appears that FM has become such a cheerleader for "open access" that he sees a vast conspiracy against it every time he believes that the term should be mentioned but isn't.I'm willing to believe that FM is getting bored with his train-watching (not much beyond BNSF and UP in his neck of the woods) and has blindly subscribed to his pet theory to get a little more variety in his life.
Oh now, Paul! Just because one author of one TRAINS submission does not use the words "open access" when describing Burkhardt's Polish rail operations, such does not make it a vast conspiracy. I was just wondering if TRAINS editorial staff has opted to edit out any reference to the phrase, since I haven't seen it for quite a while. The bottom line is that the Polish rail system is open access, and to not make mention of that fact in the article seems a little odd, don't you think?
BTW - yes, train watching up here is extremely boring. Either those long reddish-brown grain worms, or the occassional UP mixed freight.
greyhounds wrote: I heard Mr. Burkhardt speak regarding open access at Northwestern. He has extensive experience with the concept based on his European operations.He did not express a favorable view of open access.
Not suprising. Most entraprenuers don't like competition, and open access is predicated on bringing compeition to the classical "natural" monopoly of the integrated rail system.
But just remember this - most rail shippers do express a favorable view of OA and/or intramodal rail competition, at least those who are blessed to have access to it.
You see, Ken. It's not about the railroaders, it's about the railroadees.
When I met him this summer, he seemed very involved with that whole operation.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
bobwilcox wrote:I don't think Ed's ideas about OA are based on theory. Ed's not a theory kind of guy. It is probably based on this experiences in the UK. Perhaps some posters in the UK would have some views about Ed and EWS in the UK.
Well, Ed hasn't been involved with EW&S since the the WCL board gave him the boot. But EW&S is struggling in the UK as they are the highest cost company, not by a large amount, but Keith Heller is trying to improve profit margins, and they have been losing business as a result. EW&S is now expanding into France through its subsidiary Euro Cargo Rail. Rail haul distances are longer in France and they intend to apply for a German license as well. The French market is wide open for newcomers right now, but the German market is much more competitive, like that in the UK. We will see how they do in France once Open Access is a more mature market and there is more competion from companies like Rail4Chem and Veolia Transport.
futuremodal wrote: But just remember this - most rail shippers do express a favorable view of OA and/or intramodal rail competition, at least those who are blessed to have access to it.
This means nothing. "OR intradmodal rail competition". Every buyer wants more suppliers to compete for his/her business. It doesn't matter if he/she is buying rail transportaiton or lawn mowers.
It's like saying "Most" people are for clean water, clean air, winning baseball teams, good and safe food, etc.
Burkhart is an experienced, accomplished, honest railroad man. You might want to actually consider his input. I have never heard an experienced, accomplished railroad person embrace open access. I certainly have heard such people reject it.
He certainly would be the type who could greatly benifit from open access, if it would actually work. He can out "railroad" just about anybody around. If he doesn't buy into it, there's probably a good reason. You might want to examin that reason.
greyhounds wrote: futuremodal wrote: But just remember this - most rail shippers do express a favorable view of OA and/or intramodal rail competition, at least those who are blessed to have access to it.This means nothing. "OR intradmodal rail competition". Every buyer wants more suppliers to compete for his/her business. It doesn't matter if he/she is buying rail transportaiton or lawn mowers.It's like saying "Most" people are for clean water, clean air, winning baseball teams, good and safe food, etc. Burkhart is an experienced, accomplished, honest railroad man. You might want to actually consider his input. I have never heard an experienced, accomplished railroad person embrace open access. I certainly have heard such people reject it. He certainly would be the type who could greatly benifit from open access, if it would actually work. He can out "railroad" just about anybody around. If he doesn't buy into it, there's probably a good reason. You might want to examin that reason.
You might want to post the article so we all can see what Burkhardt really said, not just your take on what he said.
I can see Burkhardt and every other owner of an integrated rail property opposing OA. I can also see Burkhardt and every other owner of a rail services company supporting OA to expand the customer base. Since most of Burkhardt's properties are of the integrated model, one would presume that he'd have a generally negative view of others being able to access his property at will.
Some food for thought:
Open access has only been used as one version of various attempts to de-nationalize railroad systems. The concession system also been used. At any rate, the state still owns the infrastructure.
What's good for the customers (lower rates, prices, etc.) is not necessarily good for the providers of the goods or services.
Tulyar15 wrote:But in the free market, the customer is meant to be king!One interesting development in Poland. The British Train company Freightliner has been granted a licence to operate coal trains. It plans to take the coal to the port of Gdansk, then ship it by sea to England, then from Immingham to a number of English power stations by rail. I guess it's too much to hope they could rail haul it all the way from Poland to England!
Could it be that passenger congestion over Continental lines has made this bi-modal solution of using rail-ship-rail the best alternative? Or is it some other form of physical or political constraints engendered in the European rail network that has forced this move?
It would seem the all rail move would make the most sense.
futuremodal wrote: Tulyar15 wrote:But in the free market, the customer is meant to be king!One interesting development in Poland. The British Train company Freightliner has been granted a licence to operate coal trains. It plans to take the coal to the port of Gdansk, then ship it by sea to England, then from Immingham to a number of English power stations by rail. I guess it's too much to hope they could rail haul it all the way from Poland to England!Could it be that passenger congestion over Continental lines has made this bi-modal solution of using rail-ship-rail the best alternative? Or is it some other form of physical or political constraints engendered in the European rail network that has forced this move?It would seem the all rail move would make the most sense.
The Channel Tunnel may be the restricting factor for an all-rail move. I'm not sure of the gradients, clearances and other engineering factors involved but those factors plus the usual speed restrictions on mineral freight may keep large (by European standards) coal trains out of the tunnel.
CSSHEGEWISCH wrote:The Channel Tunnel may be the restricting factor for an all-rail move. I'm not sure of the gradients, clearances and other engineering factors involved but those factors plus the usual speed restrictions on mineral freight may keep large (by European standards) coal trains out of the tunnel.
The first problem would be the Channel Tunnel, I don't think that they would even worry about any other problem until they have a solution to that one. The problem is that as of today the Chunnel is not Open Access, second they do not offer rates for freight haulage, EW&S and SNCF Fret are covered by a special agreement signed as part of the original agreement to build the tunnel. Since I haven't heard of freight service through the Chunnel being shut down, I assume that Eurotunnel is going on a day by day basis until their agreement with their creditors is finalized. The agreement between the British and French governments to subsidize freight through the tunnel ended last month. Everyone concerned with freight through the Chunnel is waiting to see what Eurotunnel is going do. There may be pathing problems as well, but I doubt that they are insurmountable.
Tulyar15 wrote: One interesting development in Poland. The British Train company Freightliner has been granted a licence to operate coal trains. It plans to take the coal to the port of Gdansk, then ship it by sea to England, then from Immingham to a number of English power stations by rail. I guess it's too much to hope they could rail haul it all the way from Poland to England!
Would this coal move in 2 or 4 axel wagons ?
nanaimo73 wrote: Tulyar15 wrote: One interesting development in Poland. The British Train company Freightliner has been granted a licence to operate coal trains. It plans to take the coal to the port of Gdansk, then ship it by sea to England, then from Immingham to a number of English power stations by rail. I guess it's too much to hope they could rail haul it all the way from Poland to England!Would this coal move in 2 or 4 axel wagons ?
Almost certainly it would be in standard 4-axle Falns coal hoppers, pretty much the standard for Continental Coal haulage. Standard Freightliner 4-axle HHA or the new HXA hoppers would take too long to get approval for Polish Operations. Newer British coal hoppers dump between the rails while Continental European coal hoppers dump outside the rails. I would expect the port facilities to be designed for the Falns type hoppers. Freightliner doesn't own any older British 2-axle HAA and derivative design hoppers, all passed to EW&S ownership and they are phasing them out in favor of new 4-axle HTA design hoppers. The British freight car (wagon) coding system is different than that used by Continental European companies.
Falns coal hopper
Freightliner HHA coal hopper
EWS HTA coal hopper
British 2-axle coal hoppers
Tulyar15 wrote:One interesting development in Poland. The British Train company Freightliner has been granted a licence to operate coal trains. It plans to take the coal to the port of Gdansk, then ship it by sea to England, then from Immingham to a number of English power stations by rail. I guess it's too much to hope they could rail haul it all the way from Poland to England!
Coals to Newcastle?
It is not really necessary to have a license in all countries, only if you want to run trains under your own name. Especially in Germany there are enough operators willing to move trains for you, at a price of course. Probably rail to port and then by ship to England is simply the cheapest option.
In France Veolia would probably very happy to move your trains, just to get even at SNCF for all the delaying tactics in getting a license...
greetings,
Marc Immeker
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