Ground rules for Grown Ups!

[edblysard]

Well,

Are we a bunch of fine and outstanding adults, or what?

Not only did we show a young man how real growns up deal with differences of opinion, we also got to thump our cheast and drag our knuckles in the dirt
along the way!

What a excellent example we set for all the young readers out there.

When we had the chance to particapate in answering a honest, straightforward and well put question from a young man about the merits of CN dropping or doing away with part of its name, instead of teaching the guy how adults debate important issues, we went straight into the dumper, trading insults like little kids!

I am "new" to chat rooms and forums, in fact, this is the only one I visit on a regular basis, because its fun, and I learn something new each time I visit.

Yes, we poke fun at each other, the railroaders here are pretty good at it, even if wabash wont give me back the mirror!

But the ruckus raised on Mitchels thread gave me reason to think about what we do and say here.

Like dharmon, I think once it gets to the point that you feel you have to trade insults and call names, then you ought to take it to the e-mail part of this forum.

I see there are moderaters listed at the bottom of the page, although I can only assume they modify or edit postings for contents, not moderate a debate.

Which leaves us all in a bind.

What ground rules do we follow when we do have a difference of opinion?
As the particapants on the forum, shouldnt we be policing ourselves, or should we leave it up to the editor to decide when enough is enough?
And when is enough enough?
We ought to be able to debate any issue in such a manner that Dan's daughter, and mine for that matter, should be able to read it, and not in such a way we would be embarassed for them to do so.

Do we draw the line at a certain point, say, when someone begins to use what we all, as adults, would consider foul language or curssing?

If so, what is that line and what constitutes crossing it?

Who gets to decide what is and isnt a personal attack?

My skin is pretty thick, I work with a bunch of insult experts, but others may not have the same level of tough hide I do, so when do we call it quits?

Can we even come up with a working set of ground rules we can all agree to follow?

It would have to be voluntary particapation on the part of us all, and we would have to be the ones to decide when one of us has gone too far.

Is this possible, for us to act like adults and police ourselves?

If you think so, then lets here your ideas for some workable ground rules or guidlines.

Please keep in mind that, although this is a forum open to all who wi***o join, it is a privatly owned website, sponsered by a few companes who like railfans and railroaders, and as such, they have the legal and moral right to remove, edit or alter any thing here they dont like or feel is not right.

Its part of the rules of being in the club, ie, the guys who own the club get to set the rules.

So far, they have allowed a lot of leeway to several of us who havent excersised self restraint, but I get the feeling that they are tired of the childish antics of a few, who are putting the enjoyment of this site by all of us at risk.

So, if we dont like censorship, and I for one dont, then we are left with the task of being our own self censors, if only to protect our use of this site.

That said, how about the rest of the grown ups ponying up to the bar and antying up your two cents worth?

And ideas on how we go about setting out and enforcing ground rules for grown ups?

Or am I just whipping a dead horse?

If you can,
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed [:)]

You and I have a knowledge of the events that many people do not have and should not ever know. I was greately saddened over the events of the last week or so. Now it is over, thankfully so.

You have beat me to the punch here. I have been thinking all day about a set of guidelines that I might suggest to myself and others who want to be allowed to post in these forums. I was going to sit down Friday afternoon and sketch out a rough draft and then begin the work of polishing it to a point it could be presented.

I have not put anything down as yet on paper but would begin the list of possible guideline with the following :

The Golden Rule, most of us know it, now it is time to follow it.

If I make a post I usually try to accomplish one of the following things:

1) Teach -- does it give us info that someone might not know, if so it is a worthwhile post

2) Encourage -- does it encourage anyone, lift their spirits, brighten their day. I am an encourager as most of you well know. It is certainly better to encourage than tear down.

3) Humor -- Does it make someone laugh, or at least crack a smile. There are far too many negative things in this world. Give a smile and you will receive one back. I give and receive many humorus comments, sometimes you just have to roll with the punches.

Recently after making a post and then considering it, I went back and deleted it.
It didn't meet any of the above guidelines.

Also, there are times when we, and I mean ME, will stick my foot in my mouth. Being human means we, and again I mean ME, will make a mistake. When we / Me do so then an apology should be given. I have eaten crow more than once here in the forums. No, it doesn't taste very good, but being an adult and being a Christian I find it necessary to say I'm sorry, please forgive me. Not for being an adult or for being a Christian but because I didn't live up to those responsibilities.

I email Alex (Alaskaman) and Mitchell (Sask_Tinplater) almost daily. These two are good people. And considering them friends also makes me aware of the example I set for them and for others.

You probally could go back and find one of my posts that doesn't meet any of the guidelines I have just offered. Like I said I am human and can / will mess up. When, not if, I do you may point it out to me. Please be gentle, I bruise easily. And I too will do so with you.

[wabash1]

Well my two cents worth

I for one like Ed, am thick skined, it comes with the job. And to a point ( Ed and other railroaders included) become like police COLD HEARTED. It is never said this way but some what true. but i never try and take it out here in this forum.

see as railroaders we can joke at each other pick on each other and we dont give it a second thought. others can do it and the thin line seems to be drawn in the sand. why its usually more personal ( maybe) i for one dont know for sure. but i still wont let it rile me.

as far as the words we chose or what we want to say ( meaning me) I my self will not ( or try not) to say anything here i wouldnt say in church. words exspecially.

sometimes the personal attacks on people are not nesesary ( wrong spelling beat me up later) and I for one have backed off of that now that the M&M twins are not here.. And i for one am sorry that the disscussion got out of hand. I would have rather sat in a room and talked with them adultly and seen what was on their mind ( other than picking a fight) and give them a look at the mis information they have against the real world.

In closing we need to sit back think before talking ( writing) if something does offend others rationalize. get a understanding of why you make a statement. but for no reason do we need to go to name calling. people from canada love thier country ( like people from england will defend the queen) canadians will defend their country.

I should say here that i dont know what the fight was or is about. just in reading the post here and in the poll that it involved kevin and canada. I must say that Kevin came on here very bold and was shown that he can get along here with out being a bully, and learn the things he didnt know. He turned out to be a very good person. still hot headed but otherwise all right.

in closing just remeber 2 things freedom of speech dont mean picking a fight and in railroading that is hard. but if you have a opinion i would state it with out trying to offend. be willing to debate and defend your statement with out name calling and remeber what ever you say be willing to say it in church. only then will you get the diversity and knowladge that this forum has to offer. i am a engineer but that dont mean i know it all and ( thank god) I dont. but there is things i learn here every time I log on.

Oh Ed the bells on our new dash 9 are electronic, and you can have your mirror back tomorrow. but if your productivity slows im taking it back.

[JoeKoh]

there are things I learn on this site too.I want to help with what I know and share my pics with people.More coming today.
stay safe
Joe

[jchnhtfd]

I like jhhtrainsplanes post... the Golden Rule is number one, here as anywhere, and his goals are the best. We can't all meet them... but we can try.

The other thing is to remember that there are a lot of different folks writing and reading here, from novice rail fans and just plain curious non-rail people to trainmen with decades of experience to railroad management types (yeah, really -- and some of us are even literate!). This is a place for all of us to meet and exchange views and information -- and fun! But we all need to keep all the rest of us in mind...

[Anonymous]

Ed, how about the old rule put forth in the bible;
'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'
Surely if we disagree with anyones position on any subject, we can state ours without inuendos, sarcasm or insults. I also visit this forum on a daily basis and I would hate to see it disappear, I like reading postings from you railroad men who know first hand the trials and tribulations of actually being on the job.

[Modelcar]

....The Golden Rule will pretty much cover it all.

[dharmon]

I agree completely with the posts above. If we can't play well in the sandbox, then we need to play somewhere else or god forbid close down the sandbox. I have express and will continue to express my apologies for my invovement with this ugly incident and that my involvement was based out of concern for the form not content, opinions or pride of the players. I am personally ashamed that I was part of an incident that caused a well intentioned young man to want to pull his post. Please accept my apologies.

I sent an email to Bergie early on in the thread as did Jim, asking for intervention. Which they did. This should not ever have to happen. They do not have the manpower to monitor every post, nor should they have feel that they need to. We should police ourselves.

Dan

[Anonymous]

Hello All,
I posted this in another thread a little earlier, but it looks like it would be just as good a fit here.

Admiral

---

I'm no scholar, but maybe a little clarity on definitions might help. Taken from Encarta's on-line dictionaries:

o·pin·ion [ O pínny on ] (plural o·pin·ions)

noun

1. personal view: the view somebody takes about a certain issue, especially when it is based solely on personal judgment
In my opinion it’s all a waste of time.

fact [ fakt ] (plural facts)

noun

1. something known to be true: something that can be shown to be true, to exist, or to have happened

2. truth or reality of something: the truth or actual existence of something, as opposed to the supposition of something or a belief about something

It would appear to me that an opinion and fact are mutually exclusive. An opinion cannot be a fact, and a fact cannot be an opinion.
Facts can be debated, opinions cannot. If a person expresses their opinion (which is their right to do), and you disagree with it (which is your right to do), then determine if the person has any facts to support their opinion. If they do, then, and only then, is a debate of the facts possible. If there are no facts to support the opinion, well, then take it for what it is worth....not much. At that point it is time to take the proverbial "agree to disagree" approach, and not let the discussion deteriorate into harmful territory, ie "name calling". Then, with a liberal application of the Golden Rule, "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you.", any further "flame wars" should be very rare indeed.

As a wise person once said, "Opinions are like buttholes, everybody has one, and they all stink".
Of course, that is just my opinion, I could be wrong. (My thanks to Dennis Miller.)
Admiral

---

[Anonymous]

I figured that with as many people who posted in the war there would be more posts here.

I do however, appreciate everyone who has posted here. It shows a concern on your part to keep the forums a better place than they were just a few days ago.

As Bergie, David Voss, Ed, myself and others have posted--THINK before you type. Should you make a post that you have second thoughts about--by all means go back to it and delete it. This is one of the very few places we can actually take back a written word. When in doubt -- don't type. If you have already typed then go back and delete.

We have "child proof" bottles for the pills we take, but what "proof" do we have in the forums to prevent accidental / intentional word poisoning? With that seed now planted I bid you a "Good Day".

[Anonymous]

In another thread on this forum "admiralh" shared some definitions that may prove to be useful in this discussion. Taken from Encarta's on-line dictionaries, he made the distinction between opinion (personal view: the view somebody takes about a certain issue, especially when it is based solely on personal judgment) and fact (1. something known to be true: something that can be shown to be true, to exist, or to have happened; 2. truth or reality of something: the truth or actual existence of something, as opposed to the supposition of something or a belief about something).

To which I added the following comments:

Finally, light instead of heat on the subject of participating in a forum such as this. Thank you, admiralh, for taking the time to distinguish for us between fact and opinion. Failure to recognize the difference is not only dooming the usefulness of this forum, it is also dooming the ability to dialogue on any subject of any nature in any forum.

Yes, opinions are like anuses: everybody's got one. But just because you have one (an anus) doesn't mean you go around mooning everyone. Same with opinion: just because you have one doesn't mean it should be shared. There are laws and rules of civility that prohibit mooning. In the same way, there are rules against publishing opinions: these are known collectively as the rules of rhetoric, rules that demand opinions be backed with fact and logic before they can be shared and dressed up in decent, correct grammar when they are.

Sadly, most of what I read in these and other forums ignore commonly accepted rules of rhetoric. And, just because a person doesn't know what they are, that doesn't give them the right to violate them. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. If you want to share your ideas in this forum, observe the rules of rhetoric (or, if you don't know what they are, learn them) or just plain don't participate!

There are some, who unfortunately, will see my position as intellectual elitism. I assure you it is not. Just because you are entitled to an opinion doesn't mean that you are entitled to share it. You are entitled to share it when, like I said, you back it with data and logic (in which case it ceases to be an opinion and instead becomes a fact) and dress it in language that demonstrates acceptable usage.

I know the editors at the Kalmbach publications that sponsor these forums generally adhere to these principles when selecting materials to publish in print. I would appreciate it very much if they would do the same for these forums. As it stands now, these forums are loosing their credibility as a useful exchange of ideas, and not at all reflecting positively on Kalmbach Publishing. C'mon, guys; it's time to get back in the driver's seat. Just because the medium is different doesn't mean your responsibilities as editors have changed.

[edblysard]

Well,
Not real sure what your beef is, other than to point out that your not to fond of Kevins writing skills, and you think the editors here should read and edit every posting for content and context.
You correctly pointed out that a lot of whats written here would't be allowed to see the light of day in a magazine, published for sale to the general public.
Which is the major difference between a internet forum or chat room, and the pages of Trains magazine.
They have to follow the standard rules, legal and moral, of the publishing industry, because the content of the magazine is their property, and they are selling that property to the public for a profit.
They are not selling this forum.
It is, in essence, a private club, provided at no charge by them.
The Supreme Court ruled, quite some time ago, that a private club has the legal right to set certain standards and rules it expects its members to meet, and can exclude those who dont follow the rules or fail to meet the standards set.
If, one the other hand, they charged to use this service, and published it at a fee for general consumption, then they would have the legal and moral duty to edit every word written here.
If I were to follow your version of the "rules of rhetoric", I would be forbidden to write "The GG1 is the greatest locomotive in the world", if only because that is a statement of opinion only, and can not be proven as a fact, therefore it fails to meet your critiera of "rhetoric".
Blunty put, following your rules, we would be forbidden to post anything that couldnt be proven as a fact, resulting in a forum consisting of nothing but quotes from Encarta, or the old beat up dictionary on my desk.

Like I said, the major difference between this forum, and any magazine, is that the magazine and it contents are a product for sale, this forum isnt.

By the way, my dictionary defines rhetoric as:
1: The art or study of using language effectively and persuasively.
2: A style of speaking or writing.
3: Language that is pretentious or insincere.
Didnt notice anything about fact checking or editing in the definition.
By the way, I noticed you used the word anus at least three times, in three slightly different versions of the same post.
Dont think Trains, or Model Railroader would publi***hat.
Or are we just a little retentive today?

Ed

[dekemd]

I didn't read or get involved in the great CN argument, but arguments will happen. I don't have a problem with people expressing their opinions as long as it's not done in a profane, obscene, or derogratory manor. Whether they have facts to back it up or not, it is still their opinion and they are entitled to it. If it disagrees with your opinion the discuss it with them. If they refuse to see your side no matter what (ala M&M), then agree to disagree and let it go.

Being in law enforcement, I deal with arguments, fights, and disagreements all the time. The best way to stop an argument is keep everyone calm. This is where self-control comes in. If someone posts something that makes you mad, get up and walk away. Go mow the grass, wa***he car, get a snack, go railfanning. Just do something that gets you calmed down before you post a reply. If you come back read their post and it makes you mad again, walk away again. DO NOT reply until you can read their post without getting mad. That simple routine will stop 95% of the posts that turn a topic into a war.

Since I've been coming to this forum, this is the first time the moderators have had to step in, with the exception of the M&M twins, but let's not go there. That's actually pretty good. I've seen some forums that have four or five threads locked DAILY by the moderators.

Type with your brain not your emotions and we'll all get along fine.

Derrick

[Mookie]

Mookie calling Modelcar!!!!!! We have found some common sense! Alert the media and call the politicians!

Derrick - I can't imagine forums where they lock the threads daily. What an angry world we must live in....

Jen

[Anonymous]

Hey, Ed, off subjuct, but jump over to the MSN users thread, and come join us some time!! [:)]

[kevarc]

Actually, this is one of the calmer forums around. The only other one is where my forum is, www.3dtrains.com. Marc will not put up with any garbage over there. Neither will I. If you try to start a flame war, you post WILL be edited, you WILL be warned, and the thread eitherlocked or the post/thread deleted. A second offense earns you a short vacation from the forums, with the possiblity of losing rights to free extras to payware you have bought, you money is refunded. Another is total ban. We, the mods, can see your IP address and that will be banned.

I have seen great informational posts get locked/deleted because of stupid (there is no other word to descibe it) behavior.

I am no angel, I have had my share of flamewars. But I have tried to slow myself down. The best thing is in a thread where passions are inflamed is to go to Wordpad and type your response. Get up go get something to drink, get away from the computer for a couple of minutes. When you go back to the computer, reread your post, you will immediately see things that should not be said or could be said in a better way. Once you are done with that copy it and paste into a response. It will go a long way!

[dekemd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Mookie calling Modelcar!!!!!! We have found some common sense! Alert the media and call the politicians!

Derrick - I can't imagine forums where they lock the threads daily. What an angry world we must live in....

Jen

Mook,

Ask any law enforcement officer, people will argue, fight, and sometimes kill each other over the stupidest things. A few years ago we had a guy shoot his wife in the head because supper wasn't ready when he got home.

Derrick

[bnsfkline]

If anything like this goes one in the chat room that opened yesterday on irc.kickchat.net....that person will be banned from the channel for at least 2 weeks. For anyone who wants to join the chat....download the kickchat$cript Version 2.0 from www.kickchat.net to join the channel, type /join #foamers The official openening of the channel is tonight at 6:30 pm Central. Be there or be square!

[bnsfkline]

errr... make that www.kickchat.com

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dekemd

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Mookie calling Modelcar!!!!!! We have found some common sense! Alert the media and call the politicians!

Derrick - I can't imagine forums where they lock the threads daily. What an angry world we must live in....

Jen

Mook,

Ask any law enforcement officer, people will argue, fight, and sometimes kill each other over the stupidest things. A few years ago we had a guy shoot his wife in the head because supper wasn't ready when he got home.

Derrick

Derrick - one of the very few tv shows I do watch is "Cops". (Don't tell the forum or I will get grief) But how much more real than that can you get! I have seen some things on there that I can't believe people did or do - and to each other. The Mook is not a shrinking violet and would not tolerate abuse of any kind for one minute. But...these people find each other and seem to feed off one another! Pity the poor cleanup crew ....

Jen

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

I agree completely with the posts above. If we can't play well in the sandbox, then we need to play somewhere else or god forbid close down the sandbox. I have express and will continue to express my apologies for my invovement with this ugly incident and that my involvement was based out of concern for the form not content, opinions or pride of the players. I am personally ashamed that I was part of an incident that caused a well intentioned young man to want to pull his post. Please accept my apologies.

I sent an email to Bergie early on in the thread as did Jim, asking for intervention. Which they did. This should not ever have to happen. They do not have the manpower to monitor every post, nor should they have feel that they need to. We should police ourselves.

Dan

You know, I too was involved in this shameful event, all because soem mud was slung, and i didn't like the direction it was slung in, yet out of my anger, which boiled over, I accidnetly took Dan out, and I realize now that it was completely unintentional, and dan has done nothing to me other then to prove that he was the one in the right, and i was far far in the wrong when it came to involving him.

If he's talking to me, I jsut want to say i'm sorry for getting angry at you, when it's you that was right.
kev.

oh and whoever pointed out, yes my writing sucks, suscks really bad.. My Girlfriend edites every word of ehr e-mails/posts,

and LOL i don't.. call me lazy.

[dharmon]

Thanks Kevin. All ruffled feathers are back in place. Glad to see you stayed.

Dan

[Anonymous]

Two words:: Common Sense.

LC

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

Two words:: Common Sense.

LC

[:0] there's that phrase again! Maybe we are gaining some ground!

La M

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

Two words:: Common Sense.

LC

[:0] there's that phrase again! Maybe we are gaining some ground!

La M

Matt and I hope so.[:)]
stay safe
joe and matt

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Well,

Are we a bunch of fine and outstanding adults, or what?

Not only did we show a young man how real growns up deal with differences of opinion, we also got to thump our cheast and drag our knuckles in the dirt
along the way!

What a excellent example we set for all the young readers out there.

When we had the chance to particapate in answering a honest, straightforward and well put question from a young man about the merits of CN dropping or doing away with part of its name, instead of teaching the guy how adults debate important issues, we went straight into the dumper, trading insults like little kids!

I am "new" to chat rooms and forums, in fact, this is the only one I visit on a regular basis, because its fun, and I learn something new each time I visit.

Yes, we poke fun at each other, the railroaders here are pretty good at it, even if wabash wont give me back the mirror!

But the ruckus raised on Mitchels thread gave me reason to think about what we do and say here.

Like dharmon, I think once it gets to the point that you feel you have to trade insults and call names, then you ought to take it to the e-mail part of this forum.

I see there are moderaters listed at the bottom of the page, although I can only assume they modify or edit postings for contents, not moderate a debate.

Which leaves us all in a bind.

What ground rules do we follow when we do have a difference of opinion?
As the particapants on the forum, shouldnt we be policing ourselves, or should we leave it up to the editor to decide when enough is enough?
And when is enough enough?
We ought to be able to debate any issue in such a manner that Dan's daughter, and mine for that matter, should be able to read it, and not in such a way we would be embarassed for them to do so.

Do we draw the line at a certain point, say, when someone begins to use what we all, as adults, would consider foul language or curssing?

If so, what is that line and what constitutes crossing it?

Who gets to decide what is and isnt a personal attack?

My skin is pretty thick, I work with a bunch of insult experts, but others may not have the same level of tough hide I do, so when do we call it quits?

Can we even come up with a working set of ground rules we can all agree to follow?

It would have to be voluntary particapation on the part of us all, and we would have to be the ones to decide when one of us has gone too far.

Is this possible, for us to act like adults and police ourselves?

If you think so, then lets here your ideas for some workable ground rules or guidlines.

Please keep in mind that, although this is a forum open to all who wi***o join, it is a privatly owned website, sponsered by a few companes who like railfans and railroaders, and as such, they have the legal and moral right to remove, edit or alter any thing here they dont like or feel is not right.

Its part of the rules of being in the club, ie, the guys who own the club get to set the rules.

So far, they have allowed a lot of leeway to several of us who havent excersised self restraint, but I get the feeling that they are tired of the childish antics of a few, who are putting the enjoyment of this site by all of us at risk.

So, if we dont like censorship, and I for one dont, then we are left with the task of being our own self censors, if only to protect our use of this site.

That said, how about the rest of the grown ups ponying up to the bar and antying up your two cents worth?

And ideas on how we go about setting out and enforcing ground rules for grown ups?

Or am I just whipping a dead horse?

If you can,
Stay Frosty,
Ed

There's a lot to be said about people who cannot bear to lose a debate so stridently that they evoke emotionally charged topics in hopes of steering the discussion away from the ultimate failure of their point of view, it's a cheap tactic and should be regarded as such. I've seen members try this ploy with emotionally charged replies such as "I'm the decendant of halocaust survivors" more than once, and I always have to wonder "what does that have to do with railroading?"' What does whether or not a member can read, write, or spell properly have to do with railroading for that matter? Yet, we see these cheap shot type maneuvers deployed in a form as to question whether or not the holder of a point of view has "'validity"' with wreckless abandon

I think the point you are driving at, is keeping it "constructive"', is the comment one is about to make a constructive contribution to the topic at hand, or is it one designed to evoke some emotional toll against the target?

There are constructive forms of criticism, and when used properly, a discussion can grow as the result of same. But if the goal is to make the holdeer of opinion opposed to yours "feel bad" or think twice before daring to express that opinion again, maybe it would be better off left unsaid?

[Modelcar]

.....Jen, that Common Sense is gaining ground. There must be hope.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

.....Jen, that Common Sense is gaining ground. There must be hope.

[:)] Mookie is so pleased!