"I fight authority, authority always wins."

[Murphy Siding]

     In the middle of no-where in particular,in southwest Minnesota: I saw a sign on a rail line that said "S one mile.  Check authority".  What, exactly are they being asked to check, and from whom?

[Hugh Jampton]

Presumably this bit of track is dark territory, and S is a point that track warrants are issued to. The sign instructs the crew to check the authority of their track warrant to see if it extends beyond S or just to there, in which case they must stop & ask the dispatcher for a new one.

[Murphy Siding]

Presumably this bit of track is dark territory, and S is a point that track warrants are issued to. The sign instructs the crew to check the authority of their track warrant to see if it extends beyond S or just to there, in which case they must stop & ask the dispatcher for a new one.

     "S" being a point on the map, verses a switch location?  If it did mean switch location, is the word "switch" usually written out on a railway sign?

[CShaveRR]

You weren't a mile or so away from a railroad crossing, were you?

Not knowing which railroad you were looking at and where, it's hard to say--but that could be a warning sign for a crossing still protected by a stop sign.

[Murphy Siding]

You weren't a mile or so away from a railroad crossing, were you?

Not knowing which railroad you were looking at and where, it's hard to say--but that could be a warning sign for a crossing still protected by a stop sign.

     A stop sign??  Are you pulling my leg?

[edblysard]

http://www.trainweb.org/southwestshorts/images/ptragatethumb.jpg

No, Murphy, he isnt.

We use stop signs all the time, to protect railroad at grade crossings, and at some manual interlocking plants.

And just like the stop sign on the street where you live, it means stop, look, go.

Describe the sign in a little more detail, if you would.

[Murphy Siding]

     Not much to describe, I'm afraid.  White,perhaps 10"X12" whith plain, white lettering.

     I'm still mulling over the stop sign.  If one of the lines is seldom used, do they just settle for a "yield" or "merge" sign?

[CShaveRR]

Actually, some of these crossings were protected by gates.  Said gates would have a normal position, and would be set against the route that had the least traffic.  A sign like yours could be used in advance of that, too, I suspect.

[Murphy Siding]

Actually, some of these crossings were protected by gates.  Said gates would have a normal position, and would be set against the route that had the least traffic.  A sign like yours could be used in advance of that, too, I suspect.

     Would the *lesser* train crew have to, I don't know-*shut the gate after themselves, as in, put it back in the original position after passing through?

[CShaveRR]

Yes, definitely.

[edblysard]

Yes...they do.

See the photo in the link I posted above.

The Stop sign protects the PTRA main from the old SP cut across from their Clinton Sub.

The sign is normaly displayed against the SP....when they want to cross our main, they pull up, stop, look, and if no traffic, they swing the gates open locking them against the PTRA...when they are through servicing the small plant in the background, or if they are just crossing, they line the gates back against the SP main.

They was a manual interlocker about a mile west, (left) of this shot...it had a four way stop sign.

Just like on a public street, you pulled up, stopped, and if no opposing traffic, you flaged through.

It has been replaced by four red over lunar signal heads and a circut, which is a pain, it screws up every time it rains!

[Murphy Siding]

Yes...they do.

See the photo in the link I posted above.

The Stop sign protects the PTRA main from the old SP cut across from their Clinton Sub.

The sign is normaly displayed against the SP....when they want to cross our main, they pull up, stop, look, and if no traffic, they swing the gates open locking them against the PTRA...when they are through servicing the small plant in the background, or if they are just crossing, they line the gates back against the SP main.

They was a manual interlocker about a mile west, (left) of this shot...it had a four way stop sign.

Just like on a public street, you pulled up, stopped, and if no opposing traffic, you flaged through.

It has been replaced by four red over lunar signal heads and a circut, which is a pain, it screws up every time it rains!

     Is a manual interlock something like I saw in a book about local railroad history-the photo showed a switchman "winding the clock at the interlock"(?).  This was at a diamond where CNW trains infrequently  crossed a regularly used BN line.

[tree68]

     Is a manual interlock something like I saw in a book about local railroad history-the photo showed a switchman "winding the clock at the interlock"(?).  This was at a diamond where CNW trains infrequently  crossed a regularly used BN line.

IIRC, that's a time delay - I can't tell you exactly how it works, but I believe it forces a crew to wait for X minutes before they can throw a switch or some other action.  A kitchen timer of sorts.

[edblysard]

Yes and yes...

At our interlocker, if you do not get a lunar when you enter the circut, you have to stop short of the signal limits, and go to the interlocker control box, unlock it, and press a button.

This starts the timer circut, or clears the signal if nothing is in the circut.

If the circut does not clear, and remains red, you wait five minutes on the timer, which should reset the signals, but if no change, then you visualy check for opposing traffic, if none, proceed to flag throught the interlocker.

UP has a bad habit of stopping their locomotives just inside the circut, and tieing them down for crew changes, which of course, locks the opposing signal (ours)to red.

The old four way stop was better, you have over a mile sight line every way.

Stop, look and go...

An automatci interlocker has approach signals, is part of a ABS or CTC system, and works off of the track circuts.

You have to get premission from the dispatcher to flag through it.

[zardoz]

     In the middle of no-where in particular,in southwest Minnesota: I saw a sign on a rail line that said "S one mile.  Check authority".  What, exactly are they being asked to check, and from whom?

On the CP main of the C&M Division at Bain Station Road there is a white diamond shaped sign next to track 1 measuring about 12" square showing only the letter "S".  No sign next to track 2.  There is a facing-point switch approximately 1/4 mile from the sign that leads into a siding of about 1/2 mile in length.  This is the only place on the CP that I have seen this sign.  The CNW never used such an indicator.  I have no idea what the sign is for.

[edblysard]

As a guess, it indicates the switch is a spring switch.

Our road uses the diamond shaped white signs for just that purpose, to indicate to a crew the switch they are approaching is a spring switch, or a variable switch.

The switch itself is also marked, with the diamond on the switch stand proper too.

Which is what I was thinking Murphy's sign might be...

Often, such switches are used as control points in CTC.

 

[tree68]

Often, such switches are used as control points in CTC.

I often hear CSX here issue "EC-1's" from "south end siding switch..."

[zardoz]

As a guess, it indicates the switch is a spring switch.

Our road uses the diamond shaped white signs for just that purpose, to indicate to a crew the switch they are approaching is a spring switch, or a variable switch.

The switch itself is also marked, with the diamond on the switch stand proper too.

Which is what I was thinking Murphy's sign might be...

Often, such switches are used as control points in CTC.

That's a possibility.  I know the switches used there are electric-lock controlled, and the operating conditions are two-main tracks CTC.  On the CNW we used a "SS" indication on the switch target for spring-switches.  However, the sign is so close to the switch (about 1/4 mile) that it does not seem to provide sufficient stopping distances; perhaps it is just an 'advisory' type sign.

[jeffhergert]

     In the middle of no-where in particular,in southwest Minnesota: I saw a sign on a rail line that said "S one mile.  Check authority".  What, exactly are they being asked to check, and from whom?

  I would say it means, "station one mile."  The Milwaukee Road used a sign that actually said station one mile.  The Rock Island used a white, diamond shaped sign with a black S. I think I've seen other RRs use some similiar warning in some of my employee time table collection. Look in the Special Instructions section of a railroad's employee time table and it will list what signs the railroad uses and what it means.

 Remember, a station isn't a building. It's a designated place listed in the time table. It may have a building, it might not. There may be a siding, or there may only be a sign with the station name. Since it is a designated point, it can be used for the limits of movement authorities, hence "Check Authority."  The next station may be the end of your limits.  The authority this particular sign refers to is what ever type (TWC, DTC, etc) that particular railroad uses.

Jeff   

 

[Anonymous]

Yes...they do.

See the photo in the link I posted above.

The Stop sign protects the PTRA main from the old SP cut across from their Clinton Sub.

The sign is normaly displayed against the SP....when they want to cross our main, they pull up, stop, look, and if no traffic, they swing the gates open locking them against the PTRA...when they are through servicing the small plant in the background, or if they are just crossing, they line the gates back against the SP main.

They was a manual interlocker about a mile west, (left) of this shot...it had a four way stop sign.

Just like on a public street, you pulled up, stopped, and if no opposing traffic, you flaged through.

It has been replaced by four red over lunar signal heads and a circut, which is a pain, it screws up every time it rains!

     Is a manual interlock something like I saw in a book about local railroad history-the photo showed a switchman "winding the clock at the interlock"(?).  This was at a diamond where CNW trains infrequently  crossed a regularly used BN line.

No.  A manual interlocking is one controlled by a human being.  An automatic interlocking operates without human intervention.  The human being that controls the manual interlocking can be located in a tower at the interlocking, 20 miles away running several interlockings (PRR and B&O had lots of these), and 2000 miles away in a dispatching office.  Manual interlockings are essentially indistinguishable from CTC in practice, rules, and technology. 

Another way of looking at it is that manual interlockings require a human being to decide who goes first.  Automatic interlockings run on a first-come, first-serve basis.  Automatic interlockings generally have a manual override in the field, which is what you observed in the photo you describe. 

The basic difference between an interlocking and a crossing at grade protected by stop signs is that the interlocking uses signal indications to govern routes and has track circuits to detect the occupancy of a train inside its plant, and sets the signals accordingly.  Of course in both cases a trainman or engineman can disregard the signal or the stop sign or the presence of another train and proceed anyway.  Interlockings prevent the control operator from lining conflicting routes.  The term "interlocking" derives from the fact that the first interlocking machines were mechanical and used interlocking fingers inside the machine to lock-out hand levers (armstrong levers) that would set up conflicting routes, until the selected route was cleared.  Mechanical interlockings were replaced with relay logic and in turn with digital logic.

S. Hadid

[Gluefinger]

That would make sense; the siding in question is at location "Truesdell."

[Murphy Siding]

You weren't a mile or so away from a railroad crossing, were you?

Not knowing which railroad you were looking at and where, it's hard to say--but that could be a warning sign for a crossing still protected by a stop sign.

     A stop sign??  Are you pulling my leg?

     I saw a puzzling sign tonight, 8 blocks from my house that reminded me of this.  There is a street crossing at the end of a storage yard, where 3 or 4 tracks cross a semi-busy sidestreet.  A sign for the trains, on each side of the street says "Stop, and wait 28 seconds".  What would that be about?  A speed trap for the locomotives?()

 

     Also, tonight the BNSF was unloading ribbon rail next to the multiple tracks at this end of the line storage yard.  Why ribbon rail, for a yard that operates at maybe 5-10 m.h.p., in addition to the 28 second stops?

     http://maps.google.com/maps?q=sioux+falls,+south+dakota&ll=43.555982,-96.716595&spn=0.001891,0.007879&t=k&hl=en Rail yard in question, just north of 17th street.  It's actually 4 or 5 tracks.

[samfp1943]

Actually, some of these crossings were protected by gates.  Said gates would have a normal position, and would be set against the route that had the least traffic.  A sign like yours could be used in advance of that, too, I suspect.

Over at Cherokee,Ks there is a crossing where the SL&O crosses the BNSF, about a quarter mile south of US 400, I have noticed on several occasions that when there is about to be a crossing by an SK&O train there is usually someone waiting down by the crossing in a pick-up truck for the SK&O. Not quite sure what is going on with that.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The 28-second delay may be to allow time for the crossing signals to activate and the gates to be lowered since the trip is probably close to the grade crossing to prevent the signals from being activated unnecessarily.

Continuous welded rail in a yard is not unheard of.  It reduces m/w work to some extent (Mudchicken help me out on this one) which keeps the tracks in service, even if they are storage tracks.  Even though it is welded rail, it may also be relay rail demoted from mainline use.

[Murphy Siding]

The 28-second delay may be to allow time for the crossing signals to activate and the gates to be lowered since the trip is probably close to the grade crossing to prevent the signals from being activated unnecessarily.

Continuous welded rail in a yard is not unheard of.  It reduces m/w work to some extent (Mudchicken help me out on this one) which keeps the tracks in service, even if they are storage tracks.  Even though it is welded rail, it may also be relay rail demoted from mainline use.

     Thanks!  That makes sense about the delay.  I gues the sign could have said " Stop. Wait for crossing signals to come on."  In a city with 130,000 people and 100 or so crossings, there is only one crossing with gates, and it's at the entrance to a freezer warehouse that see a cut of 4-5 cars maybe once a day-go figure.