Trains Artical on Heritage Streetcars-- " There is no Logical reason why Passengers should prefer s

[n012944]

QUOTE: Originally posted by EUCLID TRAVIS

QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944

QUOTE: Originally posted by EUCLID TRAVIS

Well they just completed the Hiawatha LRT here in Minneapolis. I think it is about 12 miles long and cost almost $1 billion. It will cost $25-30 million per year just to run it. The riders swear by it, but of course, with 12 miles of route, the users are a select group. We are told that it may not make economic sense right now, but once we build a whole network of rail lines, and rebuild the city around them, it will all make sense.

You have to start somewhere


Bert

Yes, but you should start something that is not absurd. For the money, it would be far more efficient to improve the roads and bus transit. If the objective is to clean up the air, why not get the job done sooner rather than later?

You have to look at the big picture. While the 12 mile line may not be that big of deal now, it is only a piece of the puzzle. Look at Chicago, at one time the EL only ran a couple of miles, but as it expanded it became the viable system it is now, but it took time and money to build. Expanding roads is just putting a band aid over the problem, but starting a rapid transit system is the first step toward a solution.


Bert

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton


I still don't see how this affects the ability of the railroad to carry passengers.. Maybe I'm thick or something..
Buying tickets is part of the passenger moving business,, but a different part from railroad operations. Most commuters buy season tickets anyway, so this part of their transport experience only happens occasionally.

No, Hugh, you are definititly not "thick", I've learned a great deal reading your posts over the years, so you are definitely a sharp fellow.

I think the term "selective" would be more appropriate, you are (in this case) only willing to look at the idealized factors supporting the "pro rail"side of the coin.

You are still willing to make liberal assumptions that favor the rail option, evidenced by your willingness to ASSUME that the majority of riders have season tickets, so why prohibit liberal assumption for the auto option?

To wit, if we are gonna assume that all train seats are full for this measured benchmark, why can't we assume that there are 5 passengers in every car as well?

Giving one competing mode a favorable "gimme" but intentionally NOT making the same allowance for the contending modes, seems.......like someone is stacking the deck.

Likewise, if we are going to assume that the passengers to be measured for the benchmark have all already ticketed, boarded, found their riding position, and the train has already left the last station on the way to the measuring point... well, then lets give the auto option the same luxury, no stop lights, no cross traffic, just a flying mile head start towards the measuring point, just as we are giving the train.


Tell you what though, no need for me to brew ill feelings on a topic that really is of little consequence to me personally, I'll just drop it, and let you folks have your party.

Fair enough?

[Anonymous]

Streetcars can be MUed and run into trains though New Orleans did not do that.
Up here on Lake Chaplain the Ferrys do a good job of carrng people. What many commuters do is car-pool to and from the ferry dock and arange rides through Vermont Rideshare.
The Commuter train to Charlotte VT. DID carry 500 people a day which was not bad for one train with 4 trips a day. If I remember Erie-Laccawanna train to Youngstown OH from Cleveland had that amount. If they extented the train to Essex and Mountpeiler and Middlebury VT they might have had 3,000- 4,000 people a day

[Anonymous]

I I remember right the artical talked about moving Tourists more then Commuters.
Heritage Trolleys I belive makes the most sence when you have to move massave amounts of people to special events like ballgames and concerts. The problem happens when ordanary commuters who dont take the train have to contend with with rush hour as they are trying like hell to get out of downtown and they come head on at 5:15 with already stoked up baseball fans coming into downtown. Heritage streetcars coupled with well planned satilite parking can be stratigy to seperate the two.

[daveklepper]

Most commuter trains, light rail cars, streetcars, buses, subway trans, entering the central business districts during the morning rush hours ARE FULL. This is not a "liberal assumption" but a fact (and I am a conservative who did by best to campaign for Bush anyway) Most cars entering the central business districts during the morning rush hours have one driver and also, about 20% of them, one passenger. Again, this isn't a liberal assumption but a fact. Sure, the average car could carry five or even six, but the don't.

Modern cities could not function without subsidized public transportation. So then the argument comes down to what is best for a particular situation/route.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

QUOTE: Originally posted by EUCLID TRAVIS

QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944

QUOTE: Originally posted by EUCLID TRAVIS

Well they just completed the Hiawatha LRT here in Minneapolis. I think it is about 12 miles long and cost almost $1 billion. It will cost $25-30 million per year just to run it. The riders swear by it, but of course, with 12 miles of route, the users are a select group. We are told that it may not make economic sense right now, but once we build a whole network of rail lines, and rebuild the city around them, it will all make sense.

You have to start somewhere


Bert

Yes, but you should start something that is not absurd. For the money, it would be far more efficient to improve the roads and bus transit. If the objective is to clean up the air, why not get the job done sooner rather than later?

Thats the point of light rail and commuter initiatives. They want to start now instead of later. While the initial expenses are high they only get higher the longer you wait. There is virtually no room to widen existing hyways in many metropolitan areas. The expense of elevating hyways makes steel rails look attractive since they are a more efficent and effective way to move people. Both enviromentally and the effect on the landscape.

I don’t know when it became written in stone that we don’t have any room to expand the freeways. We have gobs of room around Minneapolis and Saint Paul. I have heard that for the billion dollars that we spent on our 12-mile light rail hobby, we could have added another lane to the entire ring freeway, bridges and all. And a lack of room certainly did not stop the light rail project. We rearranged half of downtown to shoehorn that in.

[Markgro]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz
On the flip-side of commuting by rail, I think the extension of Metra from Kenosha to Milwaukee is a big waste of money. The $152 million needed to begin operations is an immense sum and is totally unjustified. It already takes 1.75 hours to get from Kenosha to Chicago; it will likely take at least another 45 minutes to go from Kenosha to Milwaukee (35 rail miles). Who is going to take a 2.5 hour+ train ride each day, when the Hiawatha can do it in under 1.5 hours?

That's why the KRM Metra extension isn't really intended for people wanting to do a full Milwaukee-to-Chicago commute. Rather, it is intended for inter-subruban commutes or subruban-to-city commutes (Racine to Milwaukee, Oak Creek to Kenosha, etc.).

[n012944]

QUOTE: Originally posted by EUCLID TRAVIS
[

I don’t know when it became written in stone that we don’t have any room to expand the freeways. We have gobs of room around Minneapolis and Saint Paul. I have heard that for the billion dollars that we spent on our 12-mile light rail hobby, we could have added another lane to the entire ring freeway, bridges and all. And a lack of room certainly did not stop the light rail project. We rearranged half of downtown to shoehorn that in.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944

QUOTE: Originally posted by EUCLID TRAVIS
[

I don’t know when it became written in stone that we don’t have any room to expand the freeways. We have gobs of room around Minneapolis and Saint Paul. I have heard that for the billion dollars that we spent on our 12-mile light rail hobby, we could have added another lane to the entire ring freeway, bridges and all. And a lack of room certainly did not stop the light rail project. We rearranged half of downtown to shoehorn that in.

From a google search

" Taxpayers have spent well over $800 million on 394 -- and congestion in the western suburbs gets worse every year."


Bert