Trouble on the Hoosier State

[Tharmeni]

The Indianapolis Star is reporting on its web page this morning (Tuesday) that the Hoosier State was halted 60 miles west of Chicago en route to Indianapolis Sunday night and the engineer was "relieved of his duties". The passengers were later bused to their destinations. Anyone have an addtional information on this?

[AMTK161]

Train 318 (28) stopped at Dolton Junction because the engineer ran a red signal and someone reported him. The engineer and conductor were escorted from the train by local police; they did drug and oukihal tests on the engineer and found that he was drunk.

What I wonder is...What will they do for equipment for 317 Wednesday morning?

[Tharmeni]

I've never heard of this sort of thing on Amtrak...have you?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tharmeni

The Indianapolis Star is reporting on its web page this morning (Tuesday) that the Hoosier State was halted 60 miles west of Chicago en route to Indianapolis Sunday night and the engineer was "relieved of his duties". The passengers were later bused to their destinations. Anyone have an addtional information on this?

Boy wouldn't THAT tick you off? Suppose you were riding that train as part of a rail fan trip, and got shoved off onto a bus because the engineer was drunk?

[wabash1]

to many holes in this story as the local police have nothing to do with train crews they can not take them from the train. for a rules infraction they have no jurisdiction on railroad property. the only time a cop can take a crew member from the train is to arrest them for blocking a crossing. and then it is the conductor.

[CShaveRR]

UTU's website reports the incident thus:


Amtrak engineer relieved of duties, riders bused

Seventy passengers on an Amtrak train bound for Indiana were made to sit in a train for nearly seven hours after an engineer reportedly disobeyed a traffic signal and had to undergo a drug test late May 28 in south suburban Dolton, Ill., according to the Chicago Sun Times.
Train 318, bound from Chicago to Indianapolis, had left Chicago about 7:45 p.m., and then about 9 p.m., stopped unexpectedly in an intersection near Dolton, according to 22-year-old New Albany, Ind., resident Brandon Richie, who came to Chicago with his fiancee to see Sunday’s Cubs-Braves game at Wrigley Field.

"We were told that our engineer ran a red light," said Richie. "They didn’t tell us right away," Richie said, adding that hours went by where no one on the train knew what was happening, and neither customer service for Metra nor local police were very helpful, according to Richie.

"It is some kind of traffic rule that when he sees a red light, he is supposed to stop," Richie said. Apparently, the engineer hadn’t done so properly, and was taken for a drug test, said Richie, who added that he believed the conductor, whom he saw and did not seem impaired in any way, was also tested. An Amtrak police officer was put in charge after the engineer was relieved, he said.

Buses finally arrived at 3 a.m. that were supposed to take all passengers to their destinations.

According to Amtrak spokeswoman Vernae Graham, the passengers were waiting on the train from 9 p.m. to 3 a.m., when two buses, one an express one, arrived to take the passengers out to Indianapolis.

The train, a small one, had only one engineer, who acts as sort of the train’s pilot. "The engineer was relieved, meaning he can no longer operate the train," said Graham, who would not say why, or comment when asked if he was taken for drug testing because of the alleged violation. The conductor stayed on board, Graham said.

Amtrak police provided snack packs to passengers during this time, Graham said.

"Surprisingly, everyone on the train was more patient that you’d think, there were no flare-ups," said Richie. "After six or seven hours, we’re tired and hungry and ready to go home," Richie said.

"We felt completely helpless," added Richie, who was still on a bus at 4:45 a.m. trying to get to Indianapolis.

(This item appeared in the Sun Times May 30, 2006.)

[Chris30]

I don't think it was the local police, sounds more like railroad police escorted the engineer away. Nice to know Amtrak has a backup plan in case of emergency. You mean to tell me that there wasn't one relief engineer available??? I hope that each and every last passneger got a 100% refund a big apology from Amtrak. Nothing says customer service & repeat customers like making passengers sit on a train for six hours and then get on a bus at 3am for another @3hrs to Indianapolis.

CC

[Tharmeni]

But if rr police wanted an alcohol and drug test, wouldn't they be likely to call upon local police to administer? I agree, I feel the story is incomplete.
And where ARE Amtrak's relief engineers? If one had called in sick in Chicago Sunday night, would they have anulled the train and called for buses? I don't think so.

[pmsteamman]

The RR industry is the only one I know of that if I run a stop signal I get 30 days off NO MATTER WHAT.. Now what if a truck driver runs a red light he gets a ticket (I am not trying to start rail vs truck here). If the engr was drunk that is a shame, he has a great job and just blew it.

[senshi]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

UTU's website reports the incident thus:


Amtrak engineer relieved of duties, riders bused

.............

"We felt completely helpless," added Richie, who was still on a bus at 4:45 a.m. trying to get to Indianapolis.

The sad thing about this is that Amtrak permantantly lost riders to this debacle. One of the passengers quoted on one of the TV reports stated flat out that her treatment was bad and that she would never ride Amtrak ever again.

For the general public one report like this can sour them on passenger rail for a long time, even if they are not directly involved in the incident.

[CShaveRR]

We have to have a technician called in to administer the tests. Alcohol testing may be involved, but a specimen is collected for drug testing as well. The procedures for collecting these samples are probably stricter than local law enforcement agencies are capable of handling.

Yes, if the engineer blew the signal, he'll get some time off (chances are it was the operator at Dolton who turned him in, or he would have had some explaining to do). And if either the drug or alcohol test comes up positive, his chances of getting back soon will be materially decreased.

[CShaveRR]

I just read the first posting on this thread again--if the Hoosier State was really stopped 60 miles {i]west[/i] of Chicago, maybe the engineer was really lost! [;)][}:)]

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

I just read the first posting on this thread again--if the Hoosier State was really stopped 60 miles {i]west[/i] of Chicago, maybe the engineer was really lost! [;)][}:)]

No wonder it took Amtrak 6 hours to send the relief service.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30

I don't think it was the local police, sounds more like railroad police escorted the engineer away. Nice to know Amtrak has a backup plan in case of emergency. You mean to tell me that there wasn't one relief engineer available??? I hope that each and every last passneger got a 100% refund a big apology from Amtrak. Nothing says customer service & repeat customers like making passengers sit on a train for six hours and then get on a bus at 3am for another @3hrs to Indianapolis.

CC

This is not a defence of Amtrak.....however, from the time the decision is made to relieve part of the train and engine crew on a train....ANY TRAIN....The crew member(s) being called receive a '2 hour call' ie. The are called at 1 AM to be at their on duty point at 3 AM ready to perform service. In this particular instance where the crew was being relieved was NOT at the on duty point, therefore, transportation has to be supplied from the on duty point to the point where the train has had it's crew relieved. If the on duty point were either Indianapolis or Chicago it would be reasonable to expect the relief crew to be at the relieving point, no sooner than 4 hours after the need for a relief crew was identified.

On top of the foregoing idea scenario, throw in the fact that this all occured on a 'Holiday' weekend and you compound the situation with T&E crew availability issues and the total 9 hour or more delay to the train is within the realm of 'normal' for todays railroad operations.

I taking 9 hours to get busses to move the passengers while also regretable, is also within the realm of normal. Bus companie do not have drivers and equipment just sitting there ready to move on a moments notice.....the bus companies have to call drivers and ready equipment before they can arrive at a location. The reality of transportation is that when something goes seriously wrong (and it doesn't get any more serious than at train running a stop signal) it takes time to remedy the situation.

In other forms of transportation the delays are just as frutstrating and just a long. On one trip I was delayed 9 hours in Atlanta when the Air Traffic Control computers crashed and lost all the flight plans for all the flights in the Atlanta area. On another trip I was delayed 7 hours in Baltimore when a flight crew had to be brought in from Philadelpia on another flight that was being delayed by weather. I have had a flight from Chicago to Toledo cancelled by and Ice storm at Toledo. I have had the normally 2 hour trip from Jacksonville to Savannah on I95 take 6 hours and 30 minutes because of a traffic accident on I-95. No form of transportation is without it's potential for delay.

[grampaw pettibone]

What would you like to bet it was the conductor who took over and ordered the train stopped?? Since the engineer was taken off and the conductor left on board, that is the scenario as I see it!

[Tharmeni]

Well, it's a good thing somone reported him .. be it the conductor, the controller or ???? Red signals usually mean something's in the way.

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tharmeni

Well, it's a good thing somone reported him .. be it the conductor, the controller or ???? Red signals usually mean something's in the way.

Actually, that is not necessarily the case. An operator controled signal may show a positive stop aspect even though the route is clear and the track under control is unoccupied. And, there are circumstances where an engineer who does not stop for a positive stop signal may not be at fault. An operator can change a signal from clear to stop even if an approaching train cannot make a stop before passing a signal.

[Anonymous]

Part of the Problem is that the Crews are based out of Indy for 317/318 plus they have to call the RFE in to Sort everything it out.

[Poppa_Zit]

QUOTE: The sad thing about this is that Amtrak permantantly lost riders to this debacle. One of the passengers quoted on one of the TV reports stated flat out that her treatment was bad and that she would never ride Amtrak ever again.

People say things like that all the time, especially if a "news" person catches them when they're tired and crabby after such an ordeal.

We once were stranded at an airport for hours waiting first for a crew to fly the plane, then for buses to take us from San Francisco to Monterey. It took 9 hours for us to finally get on a bus and get going. It was American Airlines, BTW.

We still fly.

[Tharmeni]

Whoa, fellas. I need a reality check here. Is it really true that an operator will give a passenger train a red signal even if "the route is clear and the track is unoccupied" (as stated above)???? May I ask why? To write down the numbers of all the passenger cars? To make sure Amtrak doesn't run on schedule? To see if his ex-wife is really on the train headed out of town?

Help me with this, brothers (and sisters).

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tharmeni

Whoa, fellas. I need a reality check here. Is it really true that an operator will give a passenger train a red signal even if "the route is clear and the track is unoccupied" (as stated above)???? May I ask why? To write down the numbers of all the passenger cars? To make sure Amtrak doesn't run on schedule? To see if his ex-wife is really on the train headed out of town?

Help me with this, brothers (and sisters).

No the Operator would not deliberately give the passenger train a red signal.
In this situation the most likely scenario is this, the Operator notices the train run the red signal and notifies the Dispatcher, the train would be ordered to stop, or perhaps the train noticed the red signal to late to stop in time and so stopped on his own but beyond the signal. In either case the Trainmaster in charge of the territory would be summoned, the railroad's, not Amtrak's trainmaster, and Amtrak would be notified. The Trainmaster would relieve both the Engineer and the Conductor for mandatory Drug and Alcohol testing (think Ricky Gates). Amtrak would attempt to find a qualified Engineer and Conductor and give them their call. They would report to Indianapolis two hours after being called, and then be transported to the train. Note that the crewmen may not be reacheable in a matter of minutes. In this case an Amtrak crew did arive to take the train on to Indianapolis empty, but this was a couple of hours after the buses.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tharmeni

Is it really true that an operator will give a passenger train a red signal even if "the route is clear and the track is unoccupied" (as stated above)???? May I ask why?

If the signal is operator controlled, say at a manned tower (like Dolton), it is entirely possible that the operator could give a train a stop indication, even though the track ahead is clear. For one thing, it may have been a mistake. Maybe the operator meant to change the aspect, but didn't get around to it. Or, maybe the signal was waiting to time out (some signals have a time delay feature). Or, maybe the tower operator did in fact mean to stop the train, because he wanted to line a different move through the plant first. Or......something else? The point is, unless the signal is part of an ABS circuit, it's aspect may have nothing to do with whether or not the route ahead is occupied. There are plenty of areas of CTC that show red by default; there might not be a train for 50 miles in either direction, but unless the dispatcher lines that route for someone, you're gonna see RED in all directions.

Bottom line, it's the engineer's duty to stop at a stop indication. One of the only ways he could reasonably be expected to MISS a stop signal is some kind of signal abnormality; such as the previous signal displaying Clear (as opposed to Approach), and/or someone "dropping a signal" in front of him when it's too late to stop.