How close are we to unmanned mainline freights?

[kenneo]

It is possible now. It has been done in one location for more than 20 years.

[kenneo]

It is possible now. It has been done in one location for more than 20 years.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TARGUBRIGHT

Question, how does a engineer compensate for slack in a train? Example: He powers his loaded coal train up a steep hill and then start's to go down a hill. Is there a meter or gauge somewhere that tells him when to cut power and start applying brake? Or does he go by feel? How do you train a computer to feel slack action?
TIM A

It is a combination of factors. First it's by learning the territory with another experienced engineer. This is often referred to as "Qualifying" or "Qualifying on the Physical Characteristics". This is the process of an engineer riding another engineer's train and learning the territory including not only the grades, but the speeds, curves, mileposts, signals, interlockings, switches, industries and more. To learn this he uses his Employee Timetable, track and grade charts and timetable special instructions coupled with his training and knowledge of how dynamic and airbrakes are used.

Second, it's by using the engineer's most important sensory organ, his Butt in the right hand seat and by his experience in running all sorts of different trains from coal trains to auto racks to mixed freight and even passenger trains. Each type of train behaves differently.

The engineer also uses his instrumentation to help him including his speedometer, air gauges, dynamic brake indicators (ammeter) and EOTD/HOTD readouts to help him make his decisions. He also reviews his paperwork with his conductor before departure and pays careful attention to the in train placement of different cars and the distribution of loads and empties.

A train is a great heavy beast and each behaves quite differently from the other. It is definitely a judgement call. As to how you could get a computer to do that, well, I have my doubts. I've seen many good engineers come from other divisions on seniority bumps and quickly pile up the knuckles on our hills. A computer wouldn't even be that good.

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TARGUBRIGHT

Question, how does a engineer compensate for slack in a train? Example: He powers his loaded coal train up a steep hill and then start's to go down a hill. Is there a meter or gauge somewhere that tells him when to cut power and start applying brake? Or does he go by feel? How do you train a computer to feel slack action?
TIM A

It is a combination of factors. First it's by learning the territory with another experienced engineer. This is often referred to as "Qualifying" or "Qualifying on the Physical Characteristics". This is the process of an engineer riding another engineer's train and learning the territory including not only the grades, but the speeds, curves, mileposts, signals, interlockings, switches, industries and more. To learn this he uses his Employee Timetable, track and grade charts and timetable special instructions coupled with his training and knowledge of how dynamic and airbrakes are used.

Second, it's by using the engineer's most important sensory organ, his Butt in the right hand seat and by his experience in running all sorts of different trains from coal trains to auto racks to mixed freight and even passenger trains. Each type of train behaves differently.

The engineer also uses his instrumentation to help him including his speedometer, air gauges, dynamic brake indicators (ammeter) and EOTD/HOTD readouts to help him make his decisions. He also reviews his paperwork with his conductor before departure and pays careful attention to the in train placement of different cars and the distribution of loads and empties.

A train is a great heavy beast and each behaves quite differently from the other. It is definitely a judgement call. As to how you could get a computer to do that, well, I have my doubts. I've seen many good engineers come from other divisions on seniority bumps and quickly pile up the knuckles on our hills. A computer wouldn't even be that good.

LC

[Anonymous]

Running unmaned trains could happen .. as soon as railroads gets over the hurdles of money and finding the right people to do the job of installation of computer equipment. and the contracts of who will run it.. the railroads would love to get this thing on the move. do you think they won't be doing this soon.. you better guess again...

[Anonymous]

Running unmaned trains could happen .. as soon as railroads gets over the hurdles of money and finding the right people to do the job of installation of computer equipment. and the contracts of who will run it.. the railroads would love to get this thing on the move. do you think they won't be doing this soon.. you better guess again...

[Anonymous]

you all are close but wrong. just like a jet fighter piolet who wears a helmet with a mask that shows him diferent functions, the enginer of the very near futcher will sit on a chair in a room some place wearing a helmit which will be hooked up to a camera at the front of the train. he will be able to see just as if he were actualy there and will be able to do functions from afar just like the eginers now can remote controll a pushing unite at the end of the train DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Anonymous]

you all are close but wrong. just like a jet fighter piolet who wears a helmet with a mask that shows him diferent functions, the enginer of the very near futcher will sit on a chair in a room some place wearing a helmit which will be hooked up to a camera at the front of the train. he will be able to see just as if he were actualy there and will be able to do functions from afar just like the eginers now can remote controll a pushing unite at the end of the train DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[brilondon]

[:p][:p]While one should never say never. I don't think that they could ever remove the people completly from operating the trains. They still need two [:)]pilots to fly planes and aircraft are practally flown by computers now. How trains operate in the future will still need the human in the cab to make decisions based on the conditions the train is running into. This is something that cannot be done from a computer screen hundreds maybe thousands of miles away.[8D][8D]

[brilondon]

[:p][:p]While one should never say never. I don't think that they could ever remove the people completly from operating the trains. They still need two [:)]pilots to fly planes and aircraft are practally flown by computers now. How trains operate in the future will still need the human in the cab to make decisions based on the conditions the train is running into. This is something that cannot be done from a computer screen hundreds maybe thousands of miles away.[8D][8D]

[Puckdropper]

In defense of computers, they're not totally susceptable to everything. If you don't hook your systems up to an external network, you will not be as susceptable to virus, hackers, etc...

The use of the Internet to communicate using large systems in mission critical applications should not even be considered.

[Puckdropper]

In defense of computers, they're not totally susceptable to everything. If you don't hook your systems up to an external network, you will not be as susceptable to virus, hackers, etc...

The use of the Internet to communicate using large systems in mission critical applications should not even be considered.

[Anonymous]

Don't make me laugh

The railroads have alot of work to do if the were to go this route. For one VANDELs would be there big problem. Being a ex railroad employee I worked for a regional railroad here in Chicago for about two years. I, along with my crews in the two years have been derailed on purpose 9 times, 1 major derailment. Kids do anything from putting money on the tracks, scrap steel, Bricks, wood in the grooves of railroad crossings, pushing whole cars into the front of moving freight trains, anything that could be possibly used to try to derail a train a kid is going to stick it on the track (why I say kid is because half the time they stick around to watch). I have been shot at, had rocks trown at me, and all sorts of stuff slung at me threw a sling shot. I have had vandels unbolt a rail on a siding and in a little town of wayne or what CC&P and EJ&E calls munger (hawthorne) we had vandels take all the copper wire and other electrical stuff out of a signal (basically gutted the signal). IF THE RAILROADS ARE GOING TO UNMANNED TRAINS THE GENERAL PUBLIC AND CRIMINALS ARE GONNA HAVE FIELD DAYS!!!!! THEY ARE GOING TO EITHER HAVE TO HIRE A TON OF SECURITY AGENTS FOR EVERY 100 FEET OR GO TO MENARDS AND BUY A BIG FENCE, A COUPLE THOUSAND MILES WORTH....

The second the towns people are really not going to be very happy to go to sleep at night wondering what is going through their town. My father had spent many years on C&NW and his last five were with BN. he always told me never ask about what is behind your locomotives. If people like U.P. think there going to send these threw my town there wrong, I already belong to a commitee to keep RCLs out of my neck of the woods (already loosing a cousin to RCL operations) my cousin was a safe employee and always practiced his safety and even gave up his time off to teach a safety class to the new hires. The Railroad investigation states it was RCL failure and says my cousin gave it one command and the box did the reverse.

Being a Ex.Railroad employee I have different views of the rail industry than the typical railfan. People like U.P. should put some of those office people in the cab of a locomotive and see what a operator has to put up with day to day. The people in the office dont understand that a train moving from A to B has alot of complications from those two points. whether its vandels, couplers breaking, air problems, or even having your end of the train device being beat up by a baseball bat and having the battery stollen (had that happen a lot) also had people by the dozen jump on to a TOFC train to break the seals on the truck trailers so the can open the doors and load their house up with free goods. AND IF THATS NOT GOOD ENOUGH we were operating a local job down in Chicago and are 8 h.r.s. expired so in railroad terms we were dead. A taxi came and got us and took us back to the yard so we could get are cars and go home, about three hours past and the next crew came out to pick up were we left. To there suprise there wasnt a door left on the locomotive (engine room, battery boxes the whole 9 yards). On top of that it was also practiced on for some art lessons. U.P. employees should no what im taking about Ive seen many engines come threw Wheaton IL. with spray painted slangs written on them.

A unnamed person that I suspect works for U.P. states that "I'd be shot for saying this by traditionalists at my company" says one Class 1 vice-president, so you can't use my name. We have no choice but to move toward unmanned freaght trains if we expect to be competitive-particulary for intermodal- in the not -too-distant future."

Well this must come to a end, so in closing I would like to say....
My Dad passed away in 1998 at the young age of 54, from 1996 on he had seen what great stride I took on getting hired back on the Railroad, since mine was bought out and I was ferlowed. People like U.P. interviewing me a total of 12 times (thats 12 missed days off of my regular job I was working at that time), (driving a semi dump), so thats atotal of 1,200 dollars of lost pay. All 12 times being denied. They couldnt tell me on the first or second interview, the just had to keep my hopes up. atleast some railroads have told me what I was missing so I could fix it, but by the time they were either merged or bought out.
Well anyway my dad asked me before he passed what I would like to do and I told him I would like to do over the road trucking. that next morning we went down to Peterbuilt
of Wisconsin and that night I had a complete set of paid for 1997 Pete and a brand new refer trailer. My dad helped me with getting acounts for produce and other freight. Starting with me only as a driver and my parents doing me book work. A year later I added my sister and my brother-in-law as a driver. 5 years later I now operate 17 tractor trailers and 33 drivers, me being 34.
I can haul any produce out of California and since we operate two drivers per truck I can beat any U.P. or BNSF trains to Chicago. My wheels dont stop rollin for a rested crew (mine keep rollin 24-7.
So in my point of view I kinda hope they GO THIS ROUTE but im just concered about the publics safety. Thats more buisiness for me. Half my customers say they once shipped U.P. or S.F. but say there load was anywere from 36hrs to a week late, sometimes never showing up either being lost or damaged. All of my shipments average 4 hours ahead of time. In the 6 years I have only 3 major damage goods reports.

People like U.P. cant ship in time to begin with, UPS is U.P.S. only concern . The accountents at the U.P. well more than half are just there. Very few understand what there work day is about. Instead of trying to get ride of train crews they should restaff their corparate office.

A good road freight should take two guys and coal trains three. I have worked coal trains there slow and have a lot of drawbar/ coupler breaks.

[Anonymous]

Don't make me laugh

The railroads have alot of work to do if the were to go this route. For one VANDELs would be there big problem. Being a ex railroad employee I worked for a regional railroad here in Chicago for about two years. I, along with my crews in the two years have been derailed on purpose 9 times, 1 major derailment. Kids do anything from putting money on the tracks, scrap steel, Bricks, wood in the grooves of railroad crossings, pushing whole cars into the front of moving freight trains, anything that could be possibly used to try to derail a train a kid is going to stick it on the track (why I say kid is because half the time they stick around to watch). I have been shot at, had rocks trown at me, and all sorts of stuff slung at me threw a sling shot. I have had vandels unbolt a rail on a siding and in a little town of wayne or what CC&P and EJ&E calls munger (hawthorne) we had vandels take all the copper wire and other electrical stuff out of a signal (basically gutted the signal). IF THE RAILROADS ARE GOING TO UNMANNED TRAINS THE GENERAL PUBLIC AND CRIMINALS ARE GONNA HAVE FIELD DAYS!!!!! THEY ARE GOING TO EITHER HAVE TO HIRE A TON OF SECURITY AGENTS FOR EVERY 100 FEET OR GO TO MENARDS AND BUY A BIG FENCE, A COUPLE THOUSAND MILES WORTH....

The second the towns people are really not going to be very happy to go to sleep at night wondering what is going through their town. My father had spent many years on C&NW and his last five were with BN. he always told me never ask about what is behind your locomotives. If people like U.P. think there going to send these threw my town there wrong, I already belong to a commitee to keep RCLs out of my neck of the woods (already loosing a cousin to RCL operations) my cousin was a safe employee and always practiced his safety and even gave up his time off to teach a safety class to the new hires. The Railroad investigation states it was RCL failure and says my cousin gave it one command and the box did the reverse.

Being a Ex.Railroad employee I have different views of the rail industry than the typical railfan. People like U.P. should put some of those office people in the cab of a locomotive and see what a operator has to put up with day to day. The people in the office dont understand that a train moving from A to B has alot of complications from those two points. whether its vandels, couplers breaking, air problems, or even having your end of the train device being beat up by a baseball bat and having the battery stollen (had that happen a lot) also had people by the dozen jump on to a TOFC train to break the seals on the truck trailers so the can open the doors and load their house up with free goods. AND IF THATS NOT GOOD ENOUGH we were operating a local job down in Chicago and are 8 h.r.s. expired so in railroad terms we were dead. A taxi came and got us and took us back to the yard so we could get are cars and go home, about three hours past and the next crew came out to pick up were we left. To there suprise there wasnt a door left on the locomotive (engine room, battery boxes the whole 9 yards). On top of that it was also practiced on for some art lessons. U.P. employees should no what im taking about Ive seen many engines come threw Wheaton IL. with spray painted slangs written on them.

A unnamed person that I suspect works for U.P. states that "I'd be shot for saying this by traditionalists at my company" says one Class 1 vice-president, so you can't use my name. We have no choice but to move toward unmanned freaght trains if we expect to be competitive-particulary for intermodal- in the not -too-distant future."

Well this must come to a end, so in closing I would like to say....
My Dad passed away in 1998 at the young age of 54, from 1996 on he had seen what great stride I took on getting hired back on the Railroad, since mine was bought out and I was ferlowed. People like U.P. interviewing me a total of 12 times (thats 12 missed days off of my regular job I was working at that time), (driving a semi dump), so thats atotal of 1,200 dollars of lost pay. All 12 times being denied. They couldnt tell me on the first or second interview, the just had to keep my hopes up. atleast some railroads have told me what I was missing so I could fix it, but by the time they were either merged or bought out.
Well anyway my dad asked me before he passed what I would like to do and I told him I would like to do over the road trucking. that next morning we went down to Peterbuilt
of Wisconsin and that night I had a complete set of paid for 1997 Pete and a brand new refer trailer. My dad helped me with getting acounts for produce and other freight. Starting with me only as a driver and my parents doing me book work. A year later I added my sister and my brother-in-law as a driver. 5 years later I now operate 17 tractor trailers and 33 drivers, me being 34.
I can haul any produce out of California and since we operate two drivers per truck I can beat any U.P. or BNSF trains to Chicago. My wheels dont stop rollin for a rested crew (mine keep rollin 24-7.
So in my point of view I kinda hope they GO THIS ROUTE but im just concered about the publics safety. Thats more buisiness for me. Half my customers say they once shipped U.P. or S.F. but say there load was anywere from 36hrs to a week late, sometimes never showing up either being lost or damaged. All of my shipments average 4 hours ahead of time. In the 6 years I have only 3 major damage goods reports.

People like U.P. cant ship in time to begin with, UPS is U.P.S. only concern . The accountents at the U.P. well more than half are just there. Very few understand what there work day is about. Instead of trying to get ride of train crews they should restaff their corparate office.

A good road freight should take two guys and coal trains three. I have worked coal trains there slow and have a lot of drawbar/ coupler breaks.

[Anonymous]

Were not operating a model railroad or my 1/8 scale railroad also.

[Anonymous]

Were not operating a model railroad or my 1/8 scale railroad also.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

Tree-

Not to single you out, as others have made some similar comments, but,

1. It is obvious to me that you have never had to run a train as your response demonstrates a lack of understanding of the forces inherent in train handling.

2. Neither an autopilot nor a cruise control would be adequate to run a train in any form, with or without a crew.

3. A train only follows the tracks when it is properly handled, otherwise it is very quick to derail with spectacular results.

4. A computer hasn't been invented that can compensate adequately for in train forces, in time perhaps that can be done.

5. Simulators in use now can track some of the forces and risk areas, so eventually a computer capable of running a train is possible, but we are a long way from there now.

6. Even if such a computer were to be developed, what would the fail safe be?

7. They haven't yet invented a computer that can come close to duplicating the locomotive engineer's most important sensory organ. His Butt in the right hand seat. After about a year or two it is amazing how one can sense what a 150 car train is doing from some knowledge of the terrain, train composition and the feel of the train transmitted through that beat up toadstool of a chair.

Over,

LC

This'll teach me not to go back and see what's been posted in reply after I post something...
Agreed - I haven't run a train. I have been railfanning for many years, though, and have a rudimentary idea of what's involved. That said, I'd be the first to agree that the technology isn't available yet to duplicate the innate knowlege of an engineer, won't be for a long time, and the way railroads are set up today isn't conducive to implementing those technologies. On the other hand, I carry around a computer daily that fits in the palm of my hand (a Palm...) that has more computing power than most computers had into the 60's. And mine is a low-end PDA. Most newer cell phones fit that description as well.

The technology integration will arrive that will be able to duplicate "seat of the pants" (accelerometers) and knowledge of the district (GPS & mapping). Computers will be able to model the behavior of a train over the track (a known quantity) based on knowledge of the train as assembled and make adjustments. The hardware exists today.

As for some of the things that the engineer can do based on real world, I know I can blow the horn on MSTS if there are deer on the tracks. With real time telemetry and sensors (how in the world do they make cruise missiles find their target?), that kind of stuff can be monitored. I also know that even if I big hole the train in MSTS or in real life, I'm still hitting the deer if it doesn't move. Same goes for trespassers. Depending on what technologies evolve, things like runaways on steep grades could be reduced because problems in the train could be known in time to prevent the problem in the first place.

So, will we see unmanned trains in our lifetime? Depends entirely on the economics. If someone has the ca***o make it happen, it will happen. Will it be a good thing? As has been stated many times here and elsewhere - it depends on your point of view. Consider this scenario: An unmanned train on suitably prepared track is monitored (one-on-one) by an "engineer" at a central control center (we've only lost one job here now - the conductor). The on-board computer monitors all the variables (track profile, train behavior, environment, etc), and the engineer monitors everything the system feeds back, as well as watching for potential problems (ie, collisions). The computer runs the through train from point A to point B. At the terminal "real" people take over.

Do I want to see jobs lost? Absolutely not. But remember who you are probably talking to if you call for tech support for the computer you're using right now. There is a reason he has an Indian accent.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

Tree-

Not to single you out, as others have made some similar comments, but,

1. It is obvious to me that you have never had to run a train as your response demonstrates a lack of understanding of the forces inherent in train handling.

2. Neither an autopilot nor a cruise control would be adequate to run a train in any form, with or without a crew.

3. A train only follows the tracks when it is properly handled, otherwise it is very quick to derail with spectacular results.

4. A computer hasn't been invented that can compensate adequately for in train forces, in time perhaps that can be done.

5. Simulators in use now can track some of the forces and risk areas, so eventually a computer capable of running a train is possible, but we are a long way from there now.

6. Even if such a computer were to be developed, what would the fail safe be?

7. They haven't yet invented a computer that can come close to duplicating the locomotive engineer's most important sensory organ. His Butt in the right hand seat. After about a year or two it is amazing how one can sense what a 150 car train is doing from some knowledge of the terrain, train composition and the feel of the train transmitted through that beat up toadstool of a chair.

Over,

LC

This'll teach me not to go back and see what's been posted in reply after I post something...
Agreed - I haven't run a train. I have been railfanning for many years, though, and have a rudimentary idea of what's involved. That said, I'd be the first to agree that the technology isn't available yet to duplicate the innate knowlege of an engineer, won't be for a long time, and the way railroads are set up today isn't conducive to implementing those technologies. On the other hand, I carry around a computer daily that fits in the palm of my hand (a Palm...) that has more computing power than most computers had into the 60's. And mine is a low-end PDA. Most newer cell phones fit that description as well.

The technology integration will arrive that will be able to duplicate "seat of the pants" (accelerometers) and knowledge of the district (GPS & mapping). Computers will be able to model the behavior of a train over the track (a known quantity) based on knowledge of the train as assembled and make adjustments. The hardware exists today.

As for some of the things that the engineer can do based on real world, I know I can blow the horn on MSTS if there are deer on the tracks. With real time telemetry and sensors (how in the world do they make cruise missiles find their target?), that kind of stuff can be monitored. I also know that even if I big hole the train in MSTS or in real life, I'm still hitting the deer if it doesn't move. Same goes for trespassers. Depending on what technologies evolve, things like runaways on steep grades could be reduced because problems in the train could be known in time to prevent the problem in the first place.

So, will we see unmanned trains in our lifetime? Depends entirely on the economics. If someone has the ca***o make it happen, it will happen. Will it be a good thing? As has been stated many times here and elsewhere - it depends on your point of view. Consider this scenario: An unmanned train on suitably prepared track is monitored (one-on-one) by an "engineer" at a central control center (we've only lost one job here now - the conductor). The on-board computer monitors all the variables (track profile, train behavior, environment, etc), and the engineer monitors everything the system feeds back, as well as watching for potential problems (ie, collisions). The computer runs the through train from point A to point B. At the terminal "real" people take over.

Do I want to see jobs lost? Absolutely not. But remember who you are probably talking to if you call for tech support for the computer you're using right now. There is a reason he has an Indian accent.

[Overmod]

I think that some discussion should be made with two points in mind:

First, that we're MUCH closer to "one-man" or "two-man" freights than to unmanned. Second, that remote train-control systems as presently used are intended to put control of the motive power in the hands of switchmen while performing switching -- and are expressly not designed or optimized for over-the-road service.

I was hoping to see someone mention the implications of modern PTC in connection with train handling. A couple of posts danced around this a bit but apparently haven't followed the current status of how this technology would be implemented. For example: If PTC reduces many aspects of 'strain' in train handling, would it become 'possible' to extend the hours of service for train crews? In particular, would it become possible to use two-man crews in the same manner that over-the-road truckers handle 'head-end' driving, and thereby double the number of permissible continuous hours a train could run between established crew-change points? (And in such cases, would sliding wages be paid by the hour to the 'on' and 'off' crewmembers?)

There is nothing particularly difficult about designing out most, if not all, of the 'problems' discussed so far -- of course, it's the problems you don't anticipate that pose the most difficulty ;-}. The issue, however, is quite different from technical feasibility, and has been through the entire recorded history of automatic train control.

I, myself, think that any system that permits sustained train operation for more than eight hours at a time, at 'equivalent' cost to the carrier or company providing the train service, would be immensely valuable. Even if this did nothing more than allow the train to be run under 'remote' authority to a convenient crew-change point, it would eliminate many of the problems with eight-hour issues that are so often reported (cf. the recent Trains article on the KCS problems with Mexican connections via UP). I worry, though, that such a capability would rapidly -- and probably severely -- be abused in ways that BLE members would not enjoy.

One other little point: Folks in space exploration have had a similar debate for many years, dealing with interplanetary exploration. Do we send robot probes, or larger craft with astronauts aboard? There are many times where a knowledgeable human being on a locomotive is preferable to any number of computers or fancy information systems -- and, on any properly-structured financial basis, ultimately more cost-effective as well. I would not expect mainline trains ever to operate without at least one intelligent person in the operating cab at all times...

[Overmod]

I think that some discussion should be made with two points in mind:

First, that we're MUCH closer to "one-man" or "two-man" freights than to unmanned. Second, that remote train-control systems as presently used are intended to put control of the motive power in the hands of switchmen while performing switching -- and are expressly not designed or optimized for over-the-road service.

I was hoping to see someone mention the implications of modern PTC in connection with train handling. A couple of posts danced around this a bit but apparently haven't followed the current status of how this technology would be implemented. For example: If PTC reduces many aspects of 'strain' in train handling, would it become 'possible' to extend the hours of service for train crews? In particular, would it become possible to use two-man crews in the same manner that over-the-road truckers handle 'head-end' driving, and thereby double the number of permissible continuous hours a train could run between established crew-change points? (And in such cases, would sliding wages be paid by the hour to the 'on' and 'off' crewmembers?)

There is nothing particularly difficult about designing out most, if not all, of the 'problems' discussed so far -- of course, it's the problems you don't anticipate that pose the most difficulty ;-}. The issue, however, is quite different from technical feasibility, and has been through the entire recorded history of automatic train control.

I, myself, think that any system that permits sustained train operation for more than eight hours at a time, at 'equivalent' cost to the carrier or company providing the train service, would be immensely valuable. Even if this did nothing more than allow the train to be run under 'remote' authority to a convenient crew-change point, it would eliminate many of the problems with eight-hour issues that are so often reported (cf. the recent Trains article on the KCS problems with Mexican connections via UP). I worry, though, that such a capability would rapidly -- and probably severely -- be abused in ways that BLE members would not enjoy.

One other little point: Folks in space exploration have had a similar debate for many years, dealing with interplanetary exploration. Do we send robot probes, or larger craft with astronauts aboard? There are many times where a knowledgeable human being on a locomotive is preferable to any number of computers or fancy information systems -- and, on any properly-structured financial basis, ultimately more cost-effective as well. I would not expect mainline trains ever to operate without at least one intelligent person in the operating cab at all times...

[wallyworld]

We are as close to unmanned locomotives as we are to hands off driving of an automobile. The hidden cost is political. The public would demand better crossing protection, dedicated rights of way that elminate crossings, and you better beleive that the first major incident or accident would carry a public debate into the stratosphere giving the railroads two black eyes and a tangle of lawsuits. You would have innumerable folks testifying that "I told you so.." This issue right now is flying under the radar of public awareness. I could just imagine a future " News at Nine."
We have a late breaking story that a 100 car freight has derailed near Johnson City and the nearby communities of Apex and Freeburg are in the process of being evacuated due to several cars are on fire which contain toxic chemicals. One preliminary report suggests that the roadbed was undercut by recent heavy rains in our area. This brings into question the safety of unmanned trains. We have two experts in the field who are going to explain to us the legal and social costs of this controversial technology...[:(!]

[wallyworld]

We are as close to unmanned locomotives as we are to hands off driving of an automobile. The hidden cost is political. The public would demand better crossing protection, dedicated rights of way that elminate crossings, and you better beleive that the first major incident or accident would carry a public debate into the stratosphere giving the railroads two black eyes and a tangle of lawsuits. You would have innumerable folks testifying that "I told you so.." This issue right now is flying under the radar of public awareness. I could just imagine a future " News at Nine."
We have a late breaking story that a 100 car freight has derailed near Johnson City and the nearby communities of Apex and Freeburg are in the process of being evacuated due to several cars are on fire which contain toxic chemicals. One preliminary report suggests that the roadbed was undercut by recent heavy rains in our area. This brings into question the safety of unmanned trains. We have two experts in the field who are going to explain to us the legal and social costs of this controversial technology...[:(!]