Baltimore Amtrak Police Criminal Trespass Citation - Update

[Laurence_18]

This is an update to an earlier posting in which I shared my experience of being issued a criminal citation for taking photographs at Baltimore's Penn Station....
See thread: http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=59557


A slightly modified Alice's Restaurant ordeal (for those who remember the Arlo Guthries song & movie):

"and there was all kinds of mean nasty ugly looking people on the bench there. Mother rapers. Father stabbers. Father rapers! Father rapers sitting right there on the bench next to me! And they was mean and nasty and ugly and horrible crime-type guys sitting on the bench next to me. And the meanest, ugliest, nastiest one, the meanest father raper of them all, was coming over to me and he was mean 'n' ugly 'n' nasty 'n' horrible and all kind of things and he sat down next to me and said, "Kid, whad'ya get?" I said, "I didn't get nothing, I had to ...pick up ... garbage." He said, "What were you arrested for, kid?" And I said, "Taking Pictures of Trains."

Hi all. Many thanks for the advice on my case where I was issued a criminal tresspass citation in Baltimore for photographing trains on a platform. Unfortunately, I did have to go to court. Fortunately, I was ordered 5 hours of community service in exchange for a "No Prosecute" disposition.

Myself, along with public urinators, loiterers and open container possessors were sent to the community service officer. We signed in and were told to meet him outside and that the service may be shorter than 5 hours. Well, we picked up trash in a one block area and after 20 minutes were called together and told that we had completed the service, the list would be given to the judge and the cases not prosecuted. We were also told, don't come back to the courthouse and to simply leave, so that there would be no questions about the community service effort.

So this part of the odreal is done. However, I did some more research on the topic, and it's a bit of a problem. Check these articles out. Unbelievable!

There was an extreme case where Amtrak Police threw a passenger in jail for photographing trains in New Orleans: http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_newslog006.htm#AMTRAK_20060206).

And there's more. A list of abuses by railroad police is listed here: http://www.lightrailnow.org/industry_issues.htm#security-issues

Apparently, New Jersey Transit was sued for this and they revised their policy in December of 2005:

"Effective immediately, we will return to our historic practice, which enables hobbyists and other non- commercial photographers to take pictures in public areas throughout the NJ Transit system without obtaining permission or providing prior notice. There will also continue to be no restrictions on journalists in public areas of the system."

If you have read this note this far, you probably care about the issue. Please, send e-mails and letters to David Hughes asking him to adopt a similar policy to that of NJ Transit.

Mr. David Hughes
Acting President & CEO
Amtrak
60 Massachusetts Ave., NE
Washington, DC 20002

[Anonymous]

You can take photos west of the Mississippi and probally have no problems whatsoever. There are many out of the way places where no one would bother you.

However, let me say this. Freight railroads continue to be very suspicious of anyone near the railroad who is not suspose to be there. Freight crews receive almost daily reminders to report any suspicious activity to yardmasters or special agents.

Just recently the evening news did a report about tank cars and their contents. It also pointed out the lack of security these tank cars receive or don't receive. Do not look for railroads to become railfan friendly any time soon. As a matter of fact, I believe just the opposite will happen.

If you can slip out into the country and take photos then do so. You won't have to worry as much about police or special agents and the background will be much nicer than some old building. [;)]

[Anonymous]

Congrats on only having to do 20 mins of the 5 hours. It's unfortunate to have to go through all that, but at least it makes for a good story. I dig the alice's resturant bit [:)]

Where did you pick up the garbage? (what area of baltimore?)

[AntonioFP45]

Glad that you came through o.k.

I agree with JHH's (Jim) statement. Even though there are still many positive, railfan-friendly railroaders at work, the industry overall is not going to be as welcoming towards us anymore as in years past. Especially with

1. The high amount of hazardous materials moving on U.S and Canadian rails.
2. People who still insist on committing suicide by way of "train" (without regard to traumatizing locomotive crews)
3. Vandals who throw objects at passing trains.
4. Ridiculous lawsuits filed by grade crossing runners that get smacked by trains.

Many people in this country pay more attention to American Idol then they do news and world events. . Our transportation networks are extremely vulnerable and while 99.99% of photographers at trackside are not asssociated with terrorists, that's not going to be any more reassuring to railroad managers and security forces.

If I want to take photos from a public place, then I'm sure going to while keeping in mind that there's a remote chance I may be questioned.

That's life today and we just have to get used to it.

[mloik]

The Fuzz, The Man, The Heat, Flatfoots, Dicks, Bulls, Coppers, Screws, Joe Friday, Officer Stedenko, Barney, The Laws, G-Men, Feds, Revenooers, Black n Whites

[Laurence_18]

Well, the block across from the District Court on 700 E Patapsco Street is cleaner than it was. Ironically, here are a few policies that may help others:


BNSF

"It is not our place to grant or deny permission to what someone can photograph from public property. If observed photographing trains by local, state or federal law enforcement or BNSF's special agents, however, you should expect to be approached and questioned." -- Steven Frosberg

UNION PACIFIC:
As long as you are on public property, we appreciate your interest in photographing Union Pacific Railroad trains. We encourage photographers to exercise safety when doing so. Thank you for your interest and enjoy your hobby safely. -- Mark Davis, Public Affairs

CSX
"Similar to Union Pacific, as long as you stay on public right-of-ways you are not required to get permission to photograph our trains. However, you will need copyright permission if you intend to sell the photos. " -- Kim Freely, Public Affairs


METRA:
"Our policy is that any individuals taking photographs of METRA trains, stations, or facilities, which are readily accessible to public viewing, is certainly permissible." -- Executive Director Philip A. Pagano

NORFOLK SOUTHERN
"Norfolk Southern does not have a policy regarding taking pictures of our trains from public vantage points." -- Rudy Husband


NJT:
Effective immediately, we will return to our historic practice, which enables hobbyists and other non- commercial photographers to take pictures in public areas throughout the NJ Transit system without obtaining permission or providing prior notice. There will also continue to be no restrictions on journalists in public areas of the system. -- Director George Warrington

AMTRAK (Irony of all ironies)
Amtrak reminds the public and especially those who may photograph a train to stay out of danger. It is very important to stay away from tracks, moving trains, yards, railroad structures (such as bridges, trestles, towers and wires) and the railroad right-of-way. Photographers must not trespass on railroad property or on private property adjacent to the railroad. Instead, stay in public access areas, such as stations, sidewalks or parking lots. All participants agree to assume the risk of harm and release Amtrak from all liability for personal injury and loss of property. Photographers are reminded that railroad tracks, trestles, yards and equipment are private property and that trespassers are subject to arrest and fines. Some stations served by Amtrak trains require advance permission for photography. Always obey all local rules and laws.-- Amtrak April 4 2005 Press Release to announce a Calendar Contest

[PBenham]

I think that the situation here in the northeast is only going to spread out across the fruited plain if any one succeeds in an attack on any rail "targets". The sad irony here is that we could help them prevent attacks, but Amtrak and the railroads see us as the "enemy"[:(]. In response we can do something! [:0] So, during April,[}:)] BOYCOTT AMTRAK!! Drive during April! Especially here in the NYSSR![V] The State where Railfanning is illegal in the tiny little minds (if any) of the Police![V]

[Anonymous]

Out here Railfanning is perfectly fine I have never been questioned at all but I am always sure I shoot from Public Places. On top of that when I was on the NEC over the Summer I did Photograph some trains in Baltimore and I wasn't questioned at all.

[miniwyo]

Where does the UP quote come from? I would like to print that page and carry it with me just in case.

[Laurence_18]

The UP Quote came from their Public affairs office in Chicago.

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mloik

The Fuzz, The Man, The Heat, Flatfoots, Dicks, Bulls, Coppers, Screws, Joe Friday, Officer Stedenko, Barney, The Laws, G-Men, Feds, Revenooers, Black n Whites

pigs, narcs, donut-munchers.

Officer, sir, ma'am.....

[Anonymous]

Appears to be one-way traffic here.
I DO NOT KNOW THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF YOUR ARREST... BUT...
I (politely) suggest that you consider the punishment you might be calling for for someone who sabotaged a train or used it to carry a device into a city...
You got off lightly... I hope for the sake of the person in charge of your community service that this isn't read by the wrong person... in which case he/she might get fired.

There's a lot of issues around railfanning safely and legally. May I suggest that you consider some of the points I made on the New Orleans arrest thread on the MR General Discussion forum?

Two main points... on a moving train the crew have no way of knowing that you are okay, a jumper or a terrorist... even if you are on a platform. trains that hit you don't let you off lightly.

[switch7frg]

This page is quite intrasting .
The GCRR sits right along side a well known Class 1 RR . With Bruce & Brenda Bulbflash popping pics' through & over the fence nobody seems concerned about whats' goin' on . Respectfuly , Switch8frg.

[TomDiehl]

For a reference on Amtrak's policy, I contacted them thru the website link and asked the question. Here's a cut-and-paste of their response. Note the second sentence of the reply:

Dear Thomas Diehl,

Thank you for contacting us.

There are no restrictions on taking photographs on Amtrak trains and stations. We advise that you make your request with one of the attendants at the station.

We hope this information will be of assistance.

Sincerely,
Vito
Amtrak Customer Service



TRACKING NUMBER: A00000656082-00002487837



-----Original Message-----


Sent: 08 Aug 05 22:43:45
Name: Thomas Diehl
Subject: General Inquiries


Message:

What is Amtrak's policy on photographing equipment and facilities? I am asking this from a passenger and modeller's point of view. There has been much discussion in the media about the policies of various freight railroads.

[beefmalone]

QUOTE: Originally posted by David Foster

I (politely) suggest that you consider the punishment you might be calling for for someone who sabotaged a train or used it to carry a device into a city...
You got off lightly...

Come on...you're seriously going to compare a railfan to a terrorist???

[Laurence_18]

Originally posted by David Foster

Appears to be one-way traffic here.
I DO NOT KNOW THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF YOUR ARREST... BUT...
I (politely) suggest that you consider the punishment you might be calling for for someone who sabotaged a train or used it to carry a device into a city...
You got off lightly... I hope for the sake of the person in charge of your community service that this isn't read by the wrong person... in which case he/she might get fired.

There's a lot of issues around railfanning safely and legally. May I suggest that you consider some of the points I made on the New Orleans arrest thread on the MR General Discussion forum?

Two main points... on a moving train the crew have no way of knowing that you are okay, a jumper or a terrorist... even if you are on a platform. trains that hit you don't let you off lightly.


David,

How in the world does an engineer know the difference between a waiting passenger and anyone else? Get real! If the cop is really concerned about safety, he should have simply asked what I was doing and reminded me of safety regulations. If he wanted the area "safe" he should just ask the photographer to leave. A citation and court date is over the top.

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